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OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: James FeaginOff topic, but who cares. With days like this, baseball cards seem very meaningless. At least 22 dead when gunmen starts firing at West Ambler Johnston and Norris Hall at Blacksburg, Virginia. My complete, utter and total thoughts and prayers for the innocent. As for the gunman or men, burn in hell.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: Richard L.ABC news is now reporting 29 dead, what a tradegy.

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Posted By: Martin NealSenseless.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: Dan BrettaFox news saying at least 32 dead. How very sad. I have many friends that attended VT...all of them are now graduated, but I'm sure many of them are in shock right now.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: peter chaoIt is an unimaginable tragedy, thirty-one young adults have died. It's a senseless shame. This is the reason that we play sports. It allows us to take out our agressions on the playing field. Can you imagine Barry Bonds with a gun, or Wilt Chamberlain with a gun. Thank God for sports. Peter

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Posted By: Mike^^^^^What???^^^^^

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Posted By: Jason LThat was kinda a weird statement... I sort of know what you're saying,...but I also notice your comment didn't mention any football players, notorious for early morning mayhem.

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Posted By: peter chaoJason L., Maybe I'm exaggerating the importance of sports. But how about Jesse Owens at Hitler's Olympic games. Wasn't he in fact showing the master race, that blacks could compete. If I'm totally off-base let me know. Without doubt the killings were a tragedy, but think of what this world would be like without the Olympics every four years. Peter

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: LymanKinda hits close to home since both of our kids (Brett and his sister) graduated from VT. My wife and I have visited many times. It is a beautiful campus set in the serene rolling hills of Southwestern Virginia. What an unlikely place for such a tragedy. --Lyman

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Posted By: joe brennanI just enrolled my daughter into college yesterday. We think are children are safe..... In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Peter SpaethMe too. Very very sobering.

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Posted By: Peter SpaethWhat on earth do the Olympics have to do with the tragedy at Va. Tech? Peter C., your posts are becoming increasingly bewildering to me.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: Bruce MacPhersonMy wife and I are both VT grads and several of our neighbors have kids that now attend the school. According to my wife, the neighborhood kids are accounted for, but as you can imagine there was a lot of nervous tension on the block today. I am still in a bit of shock about this.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: barrysloateThis is the worst massacre in American history, and from what I understand, two students were killed early this morning; and at that point, the school thought it was over and allowed classes to resume. Then two hours later that gunman, or perhaps a different one, chained the doors of another building and shot close to sixty people. What causes people to behave in such a psychotic manner? The gunman later took his own life.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: peter chaoPeter, I apologize for going off in a tangent. There is no rational explanation for the actions of a madman. Peter

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Posted By: RhysBarry I think there are a few Native American tribes who would disagree with your statement that this was the worst Massacre ever.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: barrysloateThat's a fair point...how about the worst massacre ever by a single gunman.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: MikeI would also call the almost forgotten World Trade Towers, a massacre. And absolutely in no way am I minimizing todays horrific act. My two children just recently graduated from College. But that is another story, for another time. The ongoing press conference surrounding todays event, is taking place, and the press are making A - holes out of themselves as usual. Blaming the school, blaming the police, blaming the President of the school. "Someone should have known" "How come you didn't" "Why did it take so long". Why don't idiotic journalism majors place the blame where it belongs, on the psychotic murderer? God I hate the press. It doesn't require the brains of a toad, to play armchair quarterback. Horrible tragedy..

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: howardTrue, Rhys. Native American tribes were both perpetrators and victims of some of the worst massacres in our history (involving whites as well as rival tribes). Also, during the Civil War scores of surrendering black troops were reportedly killed in the Fort Pillow Massacre. The recent shooting seems to have been the worst massacre by a lone attacker.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: AL SPeter C, I argee with Peter Your post are very strange! What the H____ does the olympics and sports have to do with this major sobering event! A parents worst nightmare!

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Posted By: peter ullmanmike...i couldn't agree more...I sat watching that press conference thinking the exact same thing. It was like a witch hunt. It kind of reminded me of this board...a little lately! pete in mn

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Posted By: David SmithMike, I think what the press is making a big deal about is a couple of things. 1) There had been some bomb scares in the last couple of weeks, some specifically targeting one of the buildings where the shootings occured. What type of investigation took place and why wasn't security increased? 2) One shooting took place around 8 A.M. and the second took place around 10 A.M. Why the press is bringing up point two so much is because a grade school close to the campus was completely locked down after the first report of shootings. Why weren't classes cancelled and students told to stay home or in their dorms?? Also, this was not a spur of the moment type of thing. You know, two guys are at a bar and get into a fight. One leaves and then comes back wth a gun and shoots the other guy. No, for that many people to have been shot, killed and injured, the shooter had to have had a plan. He/she had to have shown some signs of anger or troubled thinking beforehand and told somebody or wrote something down. My guess is because this was probably a College student and the Technology area seems to have been targeted, the shooter had a MySpace or YouTube account and has posted hints or signs in one of those areas. They might have even posted a reason why they were going to do this. David

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Posted By: peter ullmanIt isn't about the press "making a big deal out of anything!" It's about them trying to assign blame without adequate evidence. In light of such a tremendous tragedy...is it so important to "assign" blame? I don't think this is at all productive. And how does a school alert 20000 + students that the school is shut down over an area of hundreds of acres. I don't think any school, or city, or government can foresee what terrible horror "may" possibly occur. Yes...there were bomb scares...I'd imagine this is not that uncommon. PEte in mn

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Posted By: peter chaoPete, There was a PA system that was never utilized in the 2 hours between the first shooting and the second. In a way that makes no sense, why not use the PA system, were they afraid that the shooter would panic. Why would the shooter panic he already knew there was a shooter on campus. However, it might have avoided the killing of some of the people in the second building. I know if I was on campus at the time of the PA announcement I would have gotten far away from the campus. I certainly would not have been at the site of the second shooting. All in all, it is pretty sad. Peter

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Posted By: DylanPeter C that is a very stange and perhaps ignorant thing to say. So if we as men dont play sports and get our "aggression" out, we are liable to take it out like this psycho?? Mankind has the ability to reason, we arent driven solely by our hormones. These types of acts are commited by people with serious issues, not by the average joe because he's sexually frusterated or hasnt gotten his workouts in!

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Posted By: peter chaoDylan, Your right I was way off base on my earlier comments. I suppose I was looking for a silver lining when really there isn't one. Peter

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Posted By: MikeThe President of the school said that about 65 to 70 percent live off campus, and were on their way in to the campus. A PA system would not have helped a great deal. We can all sit and speculate all night long about who did what to whom, and why. And who didn't do what and why. But there is not one person alive. or one person in this forum that can be stopped from this type of thing if they are so inclined. I can walk into any church I want this weekend. So to sit and lay blame on everyone except the shooter, is ludicrous. I suppose they will go after Bush and Cheney next. I wonder if Al and Jessie will go visit the campus....Nah.

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Posted By: JimBMike, This is clearly a case of mass killing that did not involve Bush or Cheney in any way. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> JimB edited for spelling

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Posted By: Andrew Parks"What motivates people do behave is such a psychotic manner?" One explanation is demonic possession.

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Posted By: anthonymike, i'm sure somewhere, somehow there will be at least one or two democrats that will try to blame this on bush and/or the republican party. and if jessie jackson and his buddy al can get their faces on tv and their pockets filled, i'm sure they will have something to say if not already at the campus looking for races of the victims....imo, i believe they play a huge, huge part in keeping racism alive in this country.

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Posted By: BobJim, I sometimes just shake my head in bewilderment at some of the things GWBush says. I know he doesn't always mean what comes out of his mouth but right after he said the prayers of the nation go out to the families of the deceased, he says that of course this doesn't mean that we should haven't the right to bar arms. Huh? What a bizarro thing to say in the context of the tragedy. Only W.....

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: anthonyhey bob, i would have to agree that GW Bush is probably the oddest speaker the white house has ever had but i personally think he was trying to head off the "anti-gun" nuts that will soon petition to have the "right to bare arms" reversed. as in, "there is a right to bare arms so dont even try to go there people!"

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Posted By: BradAnthony, Q: "Right to bar arms"? Why are the American people so afraid, in there own country? Jessie Jackson and his buddy Al Sharpton:~(keeping racism alive in this country?) Are you serious??? This men fight for people who have no voice!

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: ScottIngold" These men fight for people who have no voice!" What ??????? Sure .... Lets blame everyone for our ills. Why not focus on fixing the problems in the urban centers ? Bill Cosby has this figured out and is hated by the black community for it. I believe Sharpton and Jackson fully understand this. But self responsibility does not get them face time ! Edited for spelling

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: David VarghaThey don't have these problems on Israeli campuses. There are no such things as "gun-free zones" there. Conceal-carry permits for law-abiding citizens and no restrictions on having a legal gun on campus may have gone a long way to stop what happened at Virginia Tech. Nonetheless, it's a terrible tragedy for all of the families involved. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: MikeIs it the steak knifes fault, if I take it out of the drawer and go kill someone with it? How bout if I go hit someone with my snow shovel. Ooopss....better make snow shovels illegal. Come, on can we get back to some common sense. It was the work of a madman, not a mad gun.

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Posted By: barrysloateIn most cases there is no way to stop something like this because it is random, irrational, and we can not police every square inch of this country. It can happen anywhere at any time. But this incident is a little different. After the first two students were killed, the university should have been shut down. Because two hours later the gunman was able to continue his bloody rampage, the school clearly made some tragic mistakes. In the coming weeks we are going to see a lot of finger pointing, and ultimately this may turn into one of the biggest lawsuits in American history.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: Andrew ParksAs an administrator of a school, I can somewhat relate to the decision-making processes of administrations. Obviously, we have never faced anything so tragic at our school, but an administrator's job is never easy. The thing I want to express is that none of us know what reports the administration received about the gunman or the incident after the initial shootings. Initial reports on TV and the internet was 1 dead, 9 injured and a gunman was apprehended. The administration waited two hours before they allowed normalcy to continue. Nothing prepared them for the second shootings - no training, no news, no anything could have allowed them to foresee a second tragedy. The local authorities no doubt told the administration that everything was fine and it was safe to resume classes. Before you start screaming for heads to roll and placing blame, make sure you have all of the information correct first. Right now, parents and students are emotional - justiafiably so - and they are coping with their losses by means of anger and placing blame. I urge you not to fall into that dramatic trap of finger-pointing when we don't know what was reported or what occurred after the first shootings. Cut the administration some slack! Nothing - not graduate level classes or past experience - can prepare an administrator for a situation like this.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: Dave FBarry....I sort of disagree. Obviously with a man and woman found dead in the dorm's it looked totally like a domestic dispute..maybe a jealous boyfriend...girl caught cheating type of deal. It looked like a isolated event. I don't think knowing what they knew at the time they could have shut the school down for that. Had that been the only murders and the school shut down people would be saying "why did they shut down the school over a guy getting revenge on his girlfriend?" Shutting the school down or annoucing that there is a killer on the loose would have made for one mad dash away from the place..probably injuring more people at the time. I think many times the job of law enforcement official is if possible to coral a situation without causing a mass uproar of the population..which is what they were trying to do here. Hindsight of course is 20/20..but I find it hard to blame anyone for anything other than the jackass that did the shooting.

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Posted By: MikeI concur. Blame the gunman.

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Posted By: Joe D.In hindsight... YES they should have shut down the school. And to learn from this... going forward - schools should in general go into lockdown on the first incident. But that is hindsight... and that is knowledge now from experience. I cannot blame the school for not going into lockdown in this instance. Would have been great if they did - but I can't fault them for not doing so. I can, however, fault any other school going forward for repeating a bad move.

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Posted By: barrysloateYou can look at this tragedy from any perspective you want, but once these 32 families go through their grieving process there is going to be a lot of anger. And I don't believe they will sit back passively and do nothing. Maybe the university was partially to blame, and maybe there was nothing they could do. But it will probably take a lawsuit to sort it all out.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: Tim Newcombof course you "blame the gunman" -- but does anybody really think he would have killed 32 people with a knife-- even a REALLY sharp one?

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Posted By: MikeMy last comment regarding this issue. Tim you're missing the point. To place the blame on an inanimate object is ludicrous. The blame falls on the human. Doesn't matter whether it's a knife, gun or a toothpick.

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Posted By: Joe D.are you suggesting that a person planning a murderous spree - would say "oh shucks, I'm not allowed to have a gun so I will use a knife"? I'm pretty sure that murder is against the law. Willingness to break that law 32 times in a couple of hours might also be a hint that the person is willing to break any and all gun laws that might be in place.

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Posted By: PC*

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Posted By: JimBJoe D said, "I'm pretty sure that murder is against the law. Willingness to break that law 32 times in a couple of hours might also be a hint that the person is willing to break any and all gun laws that might be in place." Joe, I think there is a flaw in your reasoning. Because somebody is willing to break a law does not mean that a particular law is a not a good idea or a step in the right direction. We can find people willing to break just about any law. That does not mean we throw away laws. Obviously we will not have a gun-free America in any of our lifetimes since there are 300,000,000 guns in private hands in America. Even if we banned them today, we could not erradicate them. But that does not mean that it should not be an aim to strive towards. Yes, the killer killed those innocent people. And he did it WITH A GUN (actually two guns). And it was a lot easier for him and he killed a lot more people that he could have otherwise because he had a gun. JimB

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Posted By: AnonymousApologies in advance for adding to this thread, I meant to stop. I am not a hunter. I have never shot anything in my life. I also have never tryed smoking in my life. I don't think we should ban cigarettes. Another issue for arguement I am sure. For anyone who seriously thought that I actually thought 32 people could be killed with a toothpick, I am sorry for you. There is no hope. And as far as banning or limiting guns, the only people that would end up with them, would be the same people who disregard our laws anyway. Do you seriously think criminals would throw away their guns, or turn them in ? Or register them ? Anyone psycho enogh to want to kill 32 people, is certainly capable of obtaining an illegal firearm. or legal one for that matter. Lets end this thread.

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Posted By: PC.

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Posted By: Joe D.I believe you are taking my argument out of context. Of course I think there should be gun laws. I think the gun laws save lives for sure. I'm not sure where I even suggested to throw out gun laws? What I will say for this particular instance... I am fairly certain that a person willing to commit murder 32 times in one day is not going to concern himself with the gun law. So - in the context of this particular conversation... related to this particular event.... arguing that a gun law could have prevented this tragedy -- I just don't see it.

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Posted By: JimBJoe, I am sorry if I misunderstood or misconstrued what you were saying. JimB

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Posted By: JKMust every thread in this forum turn into a political discussion pitting the right vs. the left? This thread, IMO, was started to express condolences and focus on the tragedy - not to discuss who's to blame, possible lawsuits, gun laws, etc. Moreover, allowing this thread to degrade into yet another argument is disrespectful to those who lost their lives. So, if we cant keep this one on topic, then it should be locked and we should get back to discussing baseball cards.

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Posted By: brianif they didnt have access to a gun, they will just go set a building on fire or set off a bomb and kill even more people than the number achieved with a pistol. if someone is intent on wreaking havoc they will find a way and all gun laws do is take it from the law abiding and provide the violent criminals with easy victims and lots of guns to buy on the black market.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: barrysloateJosh is corect; this is not a political issue but a human tragedy. And while I would support some gun law reform, I doubt it would have prevented this wacko from committing the crime he did.

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Posted By: Joe D.no reason for an apology on your part. I just wanted to clarify my position. I apologize if I appeared argumentative. Regards, Joe

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Posted By: David SmithMike, Yes people can be killed with a knife or a snow shovel but you have to get up close to them. How many people could an average person kill with a knife or show shovel from 20 feet away?? Also, even if you hit your target, how injured are they going to be?? Not to mention once you have thrown the knife or snow shovel, you are going to have to go pick it up so you can go after your next target. Joe D, If there were less guns and mostly criminals had them, then the current laws on the books would work better and the people who use guns for illegal purposes would be jailed more often and for longer periods. As it is now, almost ANYBODY can get or own a gun, so when they use them illegally and are caught and go to trial, if convicted, they are not going to the max and most likely are going to get out early. Brian, A mad man will make a bomb or start a fire to injure and kill people? Maybe but most Americans are too lazy or stupid to do such a thing. Plus, with those type of weapons you are not sure that the target will even be injured. Those types of attacks take time and planning. A gun is easier and less complicated to use. I haven't heard of children making bombs and accidentally blowing themselves up. I haven't heard of two people getting in a bar fight and one going back to his truck and retrieving a bomb and coming back in the bar and blowing the first person up. My (soon to be) Brother-in-law is currently in jail. Why?? Because he held my Sister hostage for three days. She was naked and beaten during that time. How did he keep her in the apartment that long? He tore out the telephones, smashed the cell phones and had a gun. Matter of fact, once the Police arrested him and took him away, they searched the apartment and found over 20 guns including an Uzi and thousands of rounds of ammunition. My Brother-in-law is not SMART enough to make a bomb and if he had used a knife, snow shovel, toothpick, etc. my Sister could have over-powered him. The only way he controlled her for those three days was with a gun.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: peter chaoJoe D., Guys Joe D. there's no need to apologize for being argumentative, if you weren't you wouldn't be posting in this forum. I don't understand why people don't just look at countries with no gun laws. In Taiwan it has been extremely successful. Make the penalties for possessing a gun extremely harsh, something like life imprisonment. It's true that only hardcore criminals would possess guns but here's the silver-lining, the police would actually have the upper hand. Instead, of the situation we have here in the U.S. where the police stand a 50% chance of being outgunned by the bad guys. Peter

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Posted By: David SmithAlso Peter, someone who is a gun proponent said yesterday on TV if all the sudents had guns on them then this wouldn't have happened because they would have shot the person. Someone else countered that may be true but if the Police came to a dorm and EVERYBODY was armed, who would they know is the shooter? Also, what if someone had a grudge against another person and used the original shooting as cover to shoot the person they were angry with?? I don't own a gun and have only fired a couple in my life. This is because I have a bad temper and I KNOW that if I did own one, the temptation to use it would be so great that I probably would shoot someone. It is only with age, counseling and Zoloft that I am a much calmer and nicer person. However, if I were 24, in College (like the gunman) and owned a gun, what happened at Virgina Tech could have been something I would have done. I am not proud to say that just acknowledging that with me it could have been a possibility. Thank goodness I never did something like that because collecting Pre-War baseball cards would be hard to do on Death Row and even harder if I were dead. David

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Posted By: barrysloateThe alleged shooter's photograph and name are now online. Many of the students knew him and described him as a moody loner who rarely ever spoke and wrote papers with bizarre images- exactly the kind of profile you would expect from someone this sick.

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Posted By: DanScottIngold I agree with your statement earlier. As far as the rest of this, yes, it takes a weapon of some type to inflict this type of bloodshed but it is ultimately the person whom yields the weapon and uses it regardless of the type. The fact remains that there will always be weapons out there whether or not we do away with them or not. The problem is this... when Americans welcome with open arms public hangings of people whom conduct violent crimes and stop with all this panzy liberal garbage and welcome some harsh, hard, true, immediate and real punishment for violent crimes against humanity, then I feel at that point people of all ages will rapidly see that the criminal mind and element is not welcome in the US. But nooooo, we are too worried about the criminals feelings and what caused them to act out and rape our wives or daughters, murder our loved ones, assault our family or friends, etc while our decent and good citizens in the US live in fear. Many routinely argue that we must get to the bottom of their reasoning for being a criminal and love them and "fix" them and make them whole again... RIGHT????? NO, I say NO!!! I say send them to Hell where they belong and do it in a public way so people take notice that if they decide to take someones life, they have two appeals and after the second appeal it is BYE BYE in the nearest and strongest hanging tree. I am a God fearing man, just want to add that so no one thinks that I am some lunatic.

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Posted By: barrysloateDan- the killer is already dead. It's too late to punish him.

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Posted By: Cobby33Again, never mind.

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Posted By: DanMan, why is it that the obvious point of what I wrote has missed you? No kidding he is dead. The argument is not about this idiot, it is about the criminals in the US vs whether or not guns should be allowed... guns are bad only when in the hands of an idiot like the guy from VT. Guns are good when in the hands of someone responsible, who maybe hunts or collects or or or... The fact remains, criminals are not held accountible and are allowed to get away with... well, murder. They go away for a few years and get "fixed" in prison or worse, they learn nothing and then they walk, not because they have good behavior or fixed, because the prisons are overflowing and it is the logical thing to do. What I wrote was, when we start making examples of murderers, people of all ages will see that crime is not going to be tolerated and violent crimes will certainly not be tolerated without major consequences. Major consequences like being put to death with no worry about a "life term" < a total joke. How can you make a destitute person upset when you offer him life in prison? Three hots and a cot < three hot meals and a place to sleep for those of you that don't have the military lingo.

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Posted By: AnonymousFor those who keep on mentioning the snow shovel. "That is called sarcasm" my friends. If you don't understand what I am saying, please stop commenting. Obviously no one is going to kill 33 people with a snow shovel. What I am saying is that it takes a person to pull a trigger, stab someone, etc. etc. it takes the action of a person. Instead of a shovel I could have said, hammer, chisel, pipe, rock, etc. Etc. Without a human to pull off an action, there can be no dire consequences. IT IS THE "PERSON" WHO DID THIS NOT AN INANIMATE OBJECT. I am not an gun advocate. But stop blaming everything and everyone, except for the piece of garbage who performed the act. Blame him.

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Posted By: DanMentions NOTHING about right to protection for crimes! We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article. I. Section. 1. All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. Section. 2. The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature. No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen. Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three. When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies. The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment. Section. 3. The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote. Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies. No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen. The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided. The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States. The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present. Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law. Section. 4. The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators. The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day. Section. 5. Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide. Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member. Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal. Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting. Section. 6. The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place. No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office. Section. 7. All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills. Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States: If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law. Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill. Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow Money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; To establish Post Offices and post Roads; To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations; To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. Section. 9. The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person. The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken. No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State. No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another; nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another. No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State. Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress. No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article. II. Section. 1. The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows: Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector. The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President. The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States. No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected. The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them. Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Section. 2. The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment. He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments. The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session. Section. 3. He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States. Section. 4. The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article III. Section. 1. The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office. Section. 2. The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. Section. 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article. IV. Section. 1. Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof. Section. 2. The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime. No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due. Section. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. Section. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article. V. The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article. VI. All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation. This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article. VII. The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same. The Word, "the," being interlined between the seventh and eighth Lines of the first Page, the Word "Thirty" being partly written on an Erazure in the fifteenth Line of the first Page, The Words "is tried" being interlined between the thirty second and thirty third Lines of the first Page and the Word "the" being interlined between the forty third and forty fourth Lines of the second Page. Attest William Jackson Secretary Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names, G°. Washington Presidt and deputy from Virginia Delaware Geo: Read Gunning Bedford jun John Dickinson Richard Bassett Jaco: Broom Maryland James McHenry Dan of St Thos. Jenifer Danl. Carroll Virginia John Blair James Madison Jr. North Carolina Wm. Blount Richd. Dobbs Spaight Hu Williamson South Carolina J. Rutledge Charles Cotesworth Pinckney Charles Pinckney Pierce Butler Georgia William Few Abr Baldwin New Hampshire John Langdon Nicholas Gilman Massachusetts Nathaniel Gorham Rufus King Connecticut Wm. Saml. Johnson Roger Sherman New York Alexander Hamilton New Jersey Wil: Livingston David Brearley Wm. Paterson Jona: Dayton Pennsylvania B Franklin Thomas Mifflin Robt. Morris Geo. Clymer Thos. FitzSimons Jared Ingersoll James Wilson Gouv Morris

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: barrysloateI know Dan. I too want to see criminals get what they deserve, and then some. We are all very upset by this and I think it touches too close to home. Many on the board have children in college, and the whole thing is sickening.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: DanBarry, you had me scared there for a minute. Yes, I agree with your last comment. This whole thing is terrible, my daughter is just up the road going to school and it shook me too. Sometimes I sit back and think about the things that are going on right now in this country that I love so dearly and wonder, what would our forefathers think of how we are doing. Would they be proud of how we have taken care of The America's or would they be a bit ashamed as to how we have gotten to this point? We have so many problems, starving wives and children right there in the US while we have dumped I think over 9 Billion in to this Iraq war (I have served two tours there and still do not really understand). So many countless other things, what is our direction? Where will we be as a country in 50 years? 100 years? Will our grandchildren thrive or not? It may take serious reform and earth shattering changes to make things get back on track I am afraid.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: anthonybrad, i agree that people need to have a voice and jessie and al do help those people in need...but they are the first (and second) ones to put a label of racism on everything...i'm talking specifically when an American has the right to free speach goes and says something stupid, which may or may not be a slip of the tongue, get accused of being a racist...specifically Imus' comment. not saying it was right or wrong but i believe it was a stupid "slip of the tongue" comment that was made. al and jessie turned it into a racist statement....here's one that chick hearn said a few years ago. (lakers game caller for 100+ years) something similar to this when commenting on a slam dunk... "wow!, he hung on that rim long enough to peel a banana" anyone who knows chick hearn knows that he was not a racist man, if so he was in the wrong sport to be announcing. but people like al sharpton and jessie jackson jump up and say that because the player was black, chick was calling him a monkey.... was that a dumb statement or racism on chick hearn's part? ...all i'm saying is that they should help the voice that needs help and stop assuming every comment made is a racist one...people do make mistakes (especially on this board, because not everyone can be right)

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: DanAmendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. See, it doesn't say anywhere that after the speedy trial we can't take em' out back and kick the garbage out of them. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Sorry, today I am feeling quite full of vengence!

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: barrysloateDan- your two tours of duty in Iraq must have been awful. I commend you for surviving it in one piece. I don't know where the country is going in the future, but at this rate, probably downhill.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: DanI was and am proud to have served and continue to serve, just went over 21 years of service. I would do three more tours if necessary. In regard to your comment about "downhill", sadly I tend to agree. If history serves as a lesson for our future as a World power, we must look at all the great empires of known history and reflect on what brought them down and the duration that they were super-powers. The nice thing about the military is there is a lot of spare time to read about things and to reflect, history is something that many Americans refuse to look at and realize that is could just as easily happen to us. We are nearly 250 years in to this endeavor, how many years to go? It is a logical question considering our current situations in trade, commerce, dollar vs any other form of currency, etc. or the fact that vast portions of the US have been bought up by foreign companies and investors and we owe Billions of dollars, while we are afraid to call in the marker on the Trillions that are owed to us. Ugh.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: barrysloateWe will not stay the number one country forever. Other countries will soon pass us. They already have in education and health care, and our decline will continue. Maybe not in my lifetime, but eventually.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: JimBAs a professor, I for one, would not feel better if all of my students had guns. My hunch is that would lead to more deaths in the long run. JimB

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: leonI agree that publicly flogging these murderers and rapists would cut down on the amount of them, drastically. Somewhere it says "an eye for an eye"....For Jim B- I think it's a Karma thing? (though I hope there is no violence in any good religion). Also, I believe we have a winner of the longest cut and paste, ever, on Net54. It's a good day on the board....and I still feel sorry for all of those families and people this wretched person affected. best regards

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: barrysloateI know- we now have the entire U.S. Constitution on the board, in case anybody cares to memorize it.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Guys and Gals, I thought I was having a bad day yesterday, until I saw the coverage of the VT nightmare on the TV in the Airport. I had spent over an hour in customs waiting on one checked bag,and spent another 2 hours running around the airport trying to get home to my kids, but it just wasn't meant to be. I spent the night in Houston and made it home today with only sore legs and and lack of sleep to complain about. Things like this really keep you grounded on what's really important. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the victims families, so of which I think I know. Be well to all Brian PS Barry, the Federalist papers is a must read for all Americans, especially those who want to know what our founding fathers were thinking.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: David VarghaI'm pretty conservative, have nothing against hunters, etc., but it is long past the time to ban handguns and automatic weapons. Automatic weapons have been illegal to own privately for over 70 years now. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: anthonydavid, why punish the other 298 million americans who are not incarcerated for illegal weapon charges. stiffer penalties i believe is the answer, on most crimes...bring back the chain-gang...arizona has it and not only has crime dropped but the sheriff of mariposa county (i think thats the one) usually wins hands down with something like 85% of the vote. depending on the state, possession of an illegal handgun carries prison time...california (specifically l.a. county) you'd be lucky to get 10 days...i think the current population is roughly 21,000 in l.a. county jails right now. i'd have to make a call to verify it.

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: BobI think anyone with a non-criminal background should be allowed to own a weapon but the NRA does everyone a disservice in attempting to buck any type of legislation forbidding automatic weapons. My 2 cents is this: 1) Anyone who commits a felony crime (especially a violent felony) and is convicted or pleads guilty and has a gun of any sort in his possession at the time forfeits his right to parole and must flatten his sentence. It is mandatory that he serve pen time. 2) Anyone who commits a violent misdemeanor offense such as terroristic threatening or domestic assualt, etc. loses his right to own a gun and upon conviction of being in the possession of a gun at a later date, has a felony charge levelled against him. The only problem is that there would be so many thugs and bad-asses going to the pen we would have to let out the hot check writers and those sent to the pen for mere possession of drugs. Gee, what a novel idea, actually imprison the thugs and violent instead of the poor who commit victimless crimes (possession of drugs).

OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

Posted By: David VarghaI think anyone with a non-criminal background should be allowed to own a weapon but the NRA does everyone a disservice in attempting to buck any type of legislation forbidding automatic weapons. Please read my earlier post. Automatic weapons were outlawed by the National Firearms Act of 1934. Anthony -- Were you talking to me? I was quoting an earlier post (thus the italics) I am in favor of harsher penalties for criminals and fewer restrictions for gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. DavidVargha@hotmail.com