Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Kevin, <br /><br />To add some additional real value that I think a lot of people would enjoy:<br /><br />1. List the certification numbers of all cards on your site that you have rejected. Collectors will then traffic to your site to do a cert check before they purchase cards. <br /><br />That, I think, would be very valuable, both for yourself and the general colleting public.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>This would be a great idea if Kevin did not want to get any business. Obviously dealers would not give a collector a return privlege if this happened as they would never be able to sell the card.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Isn't that the idea? Keep the bad cards out of the market.<br /><br />Jim; I think everyone knew is was you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>it would put Peter out of business.<br /><br /><br /><br />Do you mean to say that Kevin's customers should risk having their cards being 'blacklisted' by Kevin's opinion?<br /><br /><br />Who the heck would submit to him if that was the case?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"This would be a great idea if Kevin did not want to get any business. Obviously dealers would not give a collector a return privlege if this happened as they would never be able to sell the card."<br /><br />Then, Jim is not helping to clean the hobby, he just wants to pass the junk to a different person. The good dealers should not have a problem with this, unless they have aboslutely no respect for Kevin. <br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />That's ridiculous. No dealer is going to take a $10,000 loss on a card and publicize that Kevin is uncomfortable with it. And once again just because Kevin may disagree with a grading service is no indication he is right.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>"And once again just because Kevin may disagree with a grading service is no indication he is right."<br /><br />Then why bother?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>Mike, you hit the nail on the head. I agree with you completely.<br /><br />Rick

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>It all depends on how Kevin wants to market his company. <br /><br />1. Does he simply want to be an extra set of eyes for a couple of wealthy collectors and make a very minimal amount of money. <br />2. Does he want to make a differnce and does he truly have the talent to make a strong influence with dealers and grading companies. <br /><br />Right now if I am a large dealer, this is something I might say:<br /><br />1. I have little respect for Kevin, but if I have to humor a good client and go through this motion to sell some cars, no big deal. I really do not care too much if Kevin rejects the card, because I can sell it to others and I also have plenty of other cards to sell Jim. <br /><br />If Kevin were to post the serial numbers:<br /><br />1. Dealers and graders would respect what he has to say and his opinion would be of real value. <br />2. If Kevin does not add that kind of value, he would be exposed and pushed out of business. <br /><br />If Kevin is good and exposes a bad card:<br /><br />1. Wouldn't the dealer have recourse with the grading company to alleviate his loss. <br />2. Kevin may be wrong once in a awhile, but if he is right more often then not, a revolution in the right direction can take place. <br /><br />My point is unless Kevin does something like this to truly add value to the hobby, his presence is not needed for me personally or for anyone that is truly trying to better the hobby. If he took it to the next level, that is something that could be special.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />So how does he make money under your vision?<br /><br />I know of at least one major collector who has had Mike look at a significant percentage of the cards in his collection.<br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />You can't be serious. PSA and SGC will disagree if a card is altered. Heck, I have had a grading company disagree with itself. Send it in once its altered--send it in again its an 8.<br /><br />One would bother with this so as to minimize the risk of having altered cards in his collection.<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Mike,<br /><br />So how does he make money under your vision?<br /><br />I know of at least one major collector who has had Mike look at a significant percentage of the cards in his collection."<br /><br />Jim, <br /><br />To bring the dicussion full circle:<br /><br />Genesis: <br /><br />1. This does nothing to clean up the hobby, which I thought was always an underlying premise of these efforts. <br />2. This is simply a second set of eyes for collectors. <br />3. The second set is needed for you because you do not trust PSA to either get is right a majority of the time or reimburse you for bunk cards. <br /><br />Things I do not understand (My ignorance):<br /><br />1. You trust Mike Baker more than PSA, but will not use them. <br />2. You trust Dave Forman more than PSA, but will not use them. <br />3. You trust Derek Grady more than PSA, but would not buy from Mastro and probably do not currently buy from Heritage. <br />4. As a HOF collector, you do not hold PSA to task for bunk cards. You do exactly what they want by sticking with them despite items 1-3 and will even pay other parties addition money to double check there cards. <br />5. Your entire problem is that PSA does not guarantee their product.<br />6. For newly started sets, there is no reason why you could not use a different grader that gives you more assurance. <br /><br />Switching Costs:<br /><br />1. For you at this point, I can appreciate for the sets you have underway, that it would be a big deal to switch and you feel the best option is a second set of eyes. This allows a niche for Kevin. <br /><br />Kevins Current Niche:<br /><br />1. PSA collectors that feel their switching costs are too high and despite their lack of guarantee are plowing forward. <br />2. To compensate for the lack of guarantee, they want a second set of eyes to feel good about purchases. <br />3. These collectors have several options i.e. Mike Baker as you mentioned above, who are much more visable or wholly accepted. <br />4. Kevin has been uable to secure a job at either PSA or GAI. This could steer many of the collectors in chosing other second opinion individuals. <br />5. Most collectors need or desire any other opinion than the one on the slab, regardless if it is GAI, PSA, SGC or BVG. That is enough in and of itself. <br />6. Kevin has obviously secured Jim's business and could get more, but there are certinaly limitations noted in 1-5. <br /><br />My Potential Current Needs for Kevin:<br /><br />1. I use SGC, so I am comfortable with their guarantee and need nothing else. <br />2. However, lets say I am ready to buy an SGC 88/8 49 Leaf Paige. This is a lot of money for me and I would not mind a second opinion. <br />3. For this issue, I would probably track down Ted Z. before Kevin. <br />4. Since Kevin and Ted Z. can give advice with no consequence, it does not mean a great deal, but I might pass on a card that Ted Z. gave the thumbs down on. So there is some value in gut feeling, but nothing of real substance.<br /><br />Future Potenial For Kevin:<br /><br />1. If Kevin posted certification numbers on his site, I would probably steer clear of those cards. That is a gut feeling value. <br />2. Once he does this, initially graders will likely say (He can not get a job here, he is not a grader, he is second rate etc.) They will tell this to dealers and try to undermine Kevin. <br />3. Kevin either has the skills or not. If not he will sputter quickly and should simply stick to his non-consequence 2nd opinon plan. <br />4. If Kevin does have the skills, he should be able to point out the specifc flaws to the graders and dealers to help pull the cards off the market and help dealers obtain their money back from the graders. <br />5. If he has enough skill to do #4, then he has something special and could really make some money and be a valued source. That was my vision plan. <br /><br /> <br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />You don't understand--you're right. You would be better off trying not to get inside my head and try to figure out what I think.<br /><br />I have tried to get a collectors group going and have met with derision by some and lack of interest by most of the remainder so this is something I am going to do for me. I am acting in my own self interest by having an expert look at my expensive card purchases before I buy them. Your proposal is simply not workable.<br /><br />I don't understand SGC's guarantee--so if Kevin says it is likely altered and SGC says it is legit do you get your money back or do you only get your money back if they agree they screwed up the first time.<br /><br />And I like PSA--I just want a second pair of expert eyes on my expensive cards.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>I prefer higher-grade cards to lower-grade ones, and my current collecting interests lie primarily in pre-war and 19th century rather than modern. Alterations are a big problem in the hobby, I know and understand that. And I have a good deal of money tied up in my collection.<br /><br />All that said, these repeated discussions sadden me. If I can't either a) educate myself to some limited degree for becoming comfortable with cards or b) take a leap of faith and trust the dealers/collectors with whom I trade and do business, then the hobby lacks that pizazz that made me want to collect again.<br /><br />I regard Kevin's expertise and consant experimentation something that makes him a true student of the hobby, and one that can teach many of us what to be careful for. And I wish him great success in any hobby-related ventures that he may take on in a more meaningful context.<br /><br />But if I can't have fun in this hobby, I'll simply walk away. These dicsussions <i>are</i> important...but in my mind, they should be in the 10% range of what we spend our time discussing. But it seems to be to be a dominant, recurring theme, at which point I question how much "fun" we are all having? Certainly we are not forensic paper anthropologists, where these discussions are enthralling, mind-boggling and interesting so much that we want to relate these stories to our non-hobby friends and family.<br /><br />~marc

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I think that Mike's idea is the right idea. There is pro's and con's to what Kevin is offering and if he does not publish on the site than it is a dishonest business benefiting only the submitter. If the submitter does not like it, heck he can just resubmit it to the grading company that gave the orignal grade. <br /><br />Jim, if you don't think there is some risk involved on both ends than your are really confused. I really have not figured out your logic in this whole matter, you feel it is a great service but if Kevin does something that you feel we not make money but would benefit the site and his project, that it is than OK not to OUT some BADS? <br /><br />I think KEvin's idea is a noble one but is going to take alot of work.<br /><br />Lee

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Lee,<br /><br />No dealer would want to have or would make his sale to me contingent upon Kevin's OK if he thought it could end up on a blacklist--anyone with any sense can figure that out.<br /><br />Marc,<br /><br />I agree with you in principal--one issue I have is that I would typically buy from several hundred dealers in a given year.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - couldn't your same argument be made regarding the advent of the slabbing era? No dealer would want to submit a card for slabbing if the end result could be that the card was deemed a reproduction or trimmed? But as we know that logic did not hold then.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>So, Kevin's service would only benefit the person putting paying for Kevin's services and if Kevin feels it's altered then what you are saying is that it is alright for them to go sell the card without any mention of Kevin's findings. <br /><br />To me there is no reason that Kevin could not charge to find out if he has already looked a card and have it on his website, heck, he could make unlimited amounts of money on the same card.<br /><br />For this whole thing to work, the buyers are going to have to start demanding his services from the sellers, until that hurt the bottom line of the seller it just will not make a difference. It is a good start, but if it is like people's feelings on auction house (I don't like what they are doing, but if they have a card I want I will bid on it.) mentality. It just won't matter.<br /><br /><br /><br />Lee

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Mark S.,<br /><br />I also agree that the hobby should be fun but with the amount of money involved that is a little tough because there are too many cheats out there. If I didn't enjoy the cards I certainly would be selling more.<br /><br />I personally believe that I have a decent grasp on altering but if you would like to see my collection of slipped through my first inspection only to find out that are altered are plentiful (around 30 cards). There is a reason that every trade or service has experts, because they are needed. The experts gain there reputation through experience and results, must of us don't have the time to get the experience.<br /><br />Lee

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Carrying this over from the other thread that was locked. As you recall, I questioned Kevin's credentials, his documented experience and the source of his expertise:<br /><br />from Jim:<br /><br /><I>"Credentials?--I have read his posts here and on the other board on alterations and he has actually gotten cards past Mike Baker who I consider the best grader in the business."</I><br /><br />Those are credentials Jim?? Getting a card past Baker hardly qualifies. And who is to say that this actually happened?<br /><br />from Jim:<br /><br /><I>"Just <U>because Kevin is uncomfortable and lets say SGC or PSA grades it doesn't mean the card is altered.</U>"</I><br /><br />Whoa, hold on now. Isn't that the whole point? Presumably I would be paying Kevin for his "expert opinion" that a card is altered...not for him telling me he's "uncomfortable" with a card. And if he is uncomfortable, you are then saying it <U>doesn't</U> mean the card is altered?<br><br>Frank

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Writing a business plan on a public message board isn't a recipe for success.<br /><br />Let Kevin start his business, if he chooses. It will succeed or fail on its own merits.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Jim, <br /><br />Taking the element out of my post of trying to get in your head, I think it does give a clear illustration of the potential Kevin could bring vs. simply being a set of 2nd eyes. I strongly disagree that it would simply not be workable. It is only not workable if Kevin does not truly have the skill-set to objectively show PSA, BVG, GAI and SGC their errors. Without this, you are right, no dealer would agree to have his cards blacklisted by someone with no respect/skill-set. <br /><br />However, with respect and skill-set, Kevin could single handedly assist dealers in getting reimbursed for bunk cards from graders. This is where Kevin would have a true value proposition vs. just another set of 2nd eyes. <br /><br />In your SGC example, lets say Kevin says an SGC card is bunk. He has objective information and the collector or dealer and Kevin go to Dave Forman for an answer. There are a couple of options:<br /><br />1. Kevin objectively shows Dave the problem, he agrees and pulls the card off the market. <br />2. Dave shows Kevin why he is wrong. <br />3. There is an impass. For this, I think Kevin should have two categories of rejection i.e. some doubt of authenticy/alteration, but can not completely substantiate the doubt and no doubt with objective information that the card is not authentic or is altered. I think the no doubt categories could be argued with the grading companies. The "some doubt" statements are meaningless.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />I don't think its the same--a dealer could always sell the card raw if it did not grade.<br /><br />Lee,<br /><br />I agree with part of what you say. I think in the beginning Kevin works for who pays him and no disclosure is necessary.<br /><br />Over time, it would be great if buyers demanded Kevin's approval on graded cards--not holding my breath on this one however.<br /><br />Frank,<br /><br />Who is to say it happened? Kevin said it--are you suggesting he is lieing? All one would have to do is ask Mike.<br /><br />On your second point, I don't think its clearcut on every card. Reasonable people can disagree. If he has doubts I will pass.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>It was mentioned earlier...Kevin consider buying out or merging with GAI. At this time buying them out would be relatively inexpensive. It probably would require no more than a minimal investment. Pay for their business license, back rent, and a few extra dollars for what remains of their goodwill.<br /><br />Peter C.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>G. Maines</b><p>Consultants are commonly employed, and most provide their services confidentially. Medical, Legal, Technical. Professional, and other experts are routine in the considerations of many.<br /><br />There is no cause to assume that services which Kevin may offer should fall outside of this framework, unless it is perceived as advantageous to those directly involved. imo

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Kevin/Jim, Your ideas are a positive step though controversial with collectors. <br /><br /> I'm no businessman but have you considered this route?.. Offer a Grade School -short course or workshop to furthur certify the current employees that work for psa, sgc, bvg, gai etc. You could even develop a program for the collectors themselves, that would likely garner great interest.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />It would be nice if everything worked out like you described but I just don't think its realistic. Do not believe Joe Orlando would entertain the idea of Kevin showing their expert graders why they are wrong. Also again I would come back to the point that Kevin if he undertakes this has got to driven ultimately by economics. Just do not see the econonmics of your business model.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Ahhhh....now I understand why no one comes forth with any evidence of these altered cards. They are reserving their right to recirculate the card back into the hobby at a maximum profit.<br /><br />So far I am unimpressed with any efforts to clean up the hobby.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>&lt;&lt;&lt;All that said, these repeated discussions sadden me. If I can't either a) educate myself to some limited degree for becoming comfortable with cards or b) take a leap of faith and trust the dealers/collectors with whom I trade and do business, then the hobby lacks that pizazz that made me want to collect again.<br /><br />But if I can't have fun in this hobby, I'll simply walk away. These dicsussions are important...but in my mind, they should be in the 10% range of what we spend our time discussing. &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you Marc.<br />tbob

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>A list of the certs are almost useless when companies like Memory Lane can get Joe Orlando to change them for them in a deceptive manner.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Sacuier</b><p><br /><br /><img src="http://www.simphoni.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/icon_popcorn.gif">

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Personally, I have not seen a substantial reason to trust Kevin Saucier's opinion above SGC's. He seems to be a reasonably competent *card doctor*, though we do not know the limits of his abilities in that regard. But that does not necessarily mean that he is going to be any better at detecting alterations than the graders at SGC or PSA. They get trained to look for the same things he knows about. He could not even get a job with PSA or GAI, correct? He claims to have gotten some types of alterations past the grading companies (though I do not remember seeing any examples). But if these sorts of alterations are undetectable, there is no reason to think he would catch them either if performed by somebody else. Getting something by the graders does not equate with an ability to detect alteration. I do not see the advantage of complicating the situation here.<br /><br />Assuming there needs to be some sort of reform, perhaps a better idea would be to have an independent review of the grading companies executed by sending in X number of altered cards (mixed in with unaltered cards) to each grading company periodically. The same cards would be sent to the all the major grading companies and then the results would be compared and made public. But adding another layer of "authentication" seems tedious and unnecessarily complicated to me, whether it is done by Kevin or anybody else.<br />JimB

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />You know you've "arrived" not just when there is a separate thread about you but when Leon closes another about you to focus on another one with your name in the title.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim B, you said it exactly how I would have if I was as eloquent as you. <br /><br />It's time for Kevin to tell us exactly why he should be trusted over SGC and PSA...show us some of those cards in holders that you got past the graders.<br /><br />edited to make clear which Jim I was referring to.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />He never claimed he should be trusted over PSA and SGC.<br /><br />He also has never announced he is going into business.<br /><br />For those who know him and trust his judgment, he can probably have a pretty nice side business.<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Isn't starting a website called AlteredCards.com considered "going into business"? I'm failing to see how this helps clean up the hobby if none of Kevin's work will be reported to anyone but the submitters.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>"So far I am unimpressed with any efforts to clean up the hobby."<br /><br />Dan's thoughts echo mine. Unless and until the day comes that people who claim to really care about cleaning up the hobby are prepared to put their money where their mouths are, nothing major is going to come of this. And what specifically do I refer to? The tap dance around the main issue -- getting slabbed altered cards out of their slabs. This is not going to happen merely by getting a second opinion about some prospective purchase. Say it comes back negative? Then all that's been accomplished is that the purchase will not take place. However, the card will remain in its slab ready to be gobbled up by the next prospective purchaser. Until the day comes that people are prepared to have their "suspect" (e.g., lacking provenance, coming from issues with a significant rate of alteration, etc.) slabbed cards re-examined and have those deemed altered put in slabs that accurately indicate the true state of the card, this is all hypocritical banter.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This is beginning to look like a problem without a solution. There are too many different opinions regarding how any card can objectively be deemed unaltered and original.<br /><br />Maybe the best solution is for the graders to spend more time examining valuable vintage cards, so that they get it right with such frequency that a second set of eyes won't be needed. They can always have more training and become more skilled at what they do.<br /><br />After reading through this thread I realized there is no way we will ever reach a universal agreement on this issue.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>I would just suggest further, even if Kevin would have a registry of rejected slabs, the slab owners would probably just pop the cards out and resubmit to get a new slab #.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />But there really is a universal answer. Given the quantity of sets registered with SGC and PSA, given that prices for graded material continues to skyrocket and given the sheer volume of cards PSA and SGC are grading, it is safe to conclude the majority of people do not really have an issue with the shortcomings of grading. If they did they could effect a change. They put the grading companies in business and they can put them out of business.<br /><br />I am also fairly certain that there could be a legal issue for Kevin were he to place a cert number on his site stating a card he examined, while in the holder, is altered. Guess this is a question for one of the many attorney's here.<br /><br />Greg

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Greg,<br /><br />Maybe Peter Chao will weigh in on this.<br /><br />I don't know why Dan and others equate this with cleaning up the hobby. What's wrong with taking advantage of your expertise to fill a hobby niche and make money.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Greg- that's actually a very fair point, as I feel very comfortable with my grading service of choice, SGC, and believe they get it right with tremendous frequency.<br /><br />But let me take it a step further. It seems to me that given proper training, the right diagnostic tools, and a thorough approach to examining a card, it should be possible to get it right with near 100% certainty. To use a cliche, if they can land a man on the moon, they can authenticate a baseball card.<br /><br />I think the real problem is that graders are sloppy. They have too much work, they don't spend enough time looking at each card, and it's quite possible they haven't received the proper training. The knowledge is out there, and each of the grading services has the ability to get it down so precisely that we should never have to be concerned that a bad card gets holdered.<br /><br />Maybe we would have to pay a little more, but in fact we do. If I submit a T206 common, I pay $8-10. If I submit a 10K card, I pay $100. For that $100, I expect every diagnostic tool known to man to be implemented.<br /><br />If they approached the issue with greater urgency, we wouldn't need to look outside the grading service for additional help. It's in their power to do a much better job and get it right.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>that this is actually be considered a viable business idea, or that there are that many altered cards in slabs that it might actually be successful. <br /><br />Also, from the locked post, Jim revealed more of himself than I think he ever intended:<br /><br /><br />===========================================<br />JimCrandell <br />(Login Davalillo) Re: www.AlteredCards.com November 18 2007, 9:32 AM <br /><br /><br />Rick,<br /><br />Just because Kevin is uncomfortable and lets say SGC or PSA grades it doesn't mean card is altered. Dealer will resell or put in auction where likely many altered cards reside.<br /><br />If I pay Kevin, why should anyone else benefit from his opinion? <br /><br />===========================================<br /> <br />With that statement, Jim's "cleaning up the hobby" crusade goes right out the window, and he is revealed as the petty, selfish collector many have accused him of being over the years.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>G. Maines</b><p>unlike the rest of us.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sean,<br /><br />Boy you are an ass. I tried to do a number of things and you were nowhere to be seen.<br /><br />Now I need to buy cards and I want a second opinion. For the fifth time so even you can understand, no dealer will sell me a card if they thought it was going to end up on a list.<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Stay tuned next week for Kevin's website launch. Will have endorsements from Rob Lifson, Mike Baker, Rich Mueller among others.<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, you have said many times that you won't work with dealers/auction houses that are unwilling to help clean up the hobby so if a dealer won't sell you a card for fear it may end up on a list then aren't they impeding the effort at cleaning up the hobby?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>While one can identify obvious or certain categories of problems and give a quick opinion (ala PSA/DNA Quick Opinion) about trimming, authenticity and such (Which in and of itself can be considered a useful service), you can't adequately examine a card without removing the card from the holder. Giving a final seal of approval to a card that hasn't been examined raw is dubious. You can't see everything when it's holdered only in part because, whether glass or plastic, holders distort light. Even if the holder causes no distortion, you won't know this until the card is removed.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />You are misquoting me--those are not my stated reasons for not buying from certain auction houses.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I see SGC as the more conscientious grader. They can be this way because they do not do the volume that PSA is doing which, sadly, "justifies" PSA's not having to do as good a job. PSA is inconsistent at best. Is that due to improper training? Too many different graders? Not enough graders for the volume? They reject stuff they shouldn't and grade stuff they shouldn't too frequently. <br /><br />I am not sure if paying more for a card is even the answer. If a submitter is sending in an altered card he is not going to pay $100 to be scrutinized. It is going to be submitted at a level where that submitter thinks he can get it through which would be at a lower tier of service where the more inexperienced graders are delegated. So the grading service is only as good as it's weakest link. PSA has tiers but that is easy enough to work around and most do it, even if it is merely to save money.<br /><br />Greg

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />If you are looking to purchase a card from a dealer with the stipulation that Kevin deems it unaltered, do you agree on a price before or after Kevin deems it un-altered?<br /><br />It sounds to me like an arbitrage situation?<br /><br />Since you have already stated a card would be more valuable with Kevin's impramatur would you not be adding value to any purchase you make immediately?<br /><br />Or would you be willing to pay the dealer more for said card?<br /><br />I am not trying to pile on just trying understand how this is fair to anyone but you and Kevin.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, I wasn't really quoting you, but this is the impression I have gotten from statements you have made.<br /><br />This hobby is not going to get cleaned up unless people share information with one another about altered cards. So far from what I have seen nobody is willing to step up to the plate and show which cards they know to be problem cards. There can only be one reason for this secretiveness....They don't care if this problem gets circulated to the next guy because they probably have a lot of money in the card.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share.<br /><br />Charlie,<br /><br />You are not piling on--it is a very interesting thread except for Sean who wants to make it a personal attack against me. I would agree on a price before. These guys are my friends Charlie. Steve Novella does tons of things for me. Buy cards for me, sells all my dupes on ebay for no charge, submits to psa on my behalf, comes to me with deals etc. He would be offended to suggest he should take a higher price for something he believes is legit anyway.. I hope that as a reputable dealer you would have the same standards.

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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>you really must have a selective memory. If you search these boards, you will see that I was one of the early volunteers help out on your "clean up the hobby" crusade, but backed out after you posted a few of your personal social views. <br /><br />As for your second comment, you are only proving my point: you are more concerned about advancing your collection than you are about cleaning up the hobby. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just something that needs to be made clear. <br /><br />=========================================<br /><br />JimCrandell <br />(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 18 2007, 4:08 PM <br /><br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />Boy you are an ass. I tried to do a number of things and you were nowhere to be seen.<br /><br />Now I need to buy cards and I want a second opinion. For the fifth time so even you can understand, no dealer will sell me a card if they thought it was going to end up on a list.<br /> <br />==========================================

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>For the sixth time.....boy are you thick.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>I am glad you are against personal attacks Jim.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, will you be sending any of the cards you currently own to Kevin or will it only be new cards you are looking at buying? If a card comes back as "altered" what will you do with that card?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />If I buy an expensive card from a dealer I will send it to Kevin. As I have said numerous times on this board I am not sending any cards I own in. If Kevin is not comfortable with the card I will return it to the dealer.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Dan's question refered to cards that Kevin would deem "altered", not ones that he was "not comfortable with".

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Expecting Kevin to "out" cards is misguided in my opinion. If anyone really wants to bring about change, try pressuring PSA to make transparent who submitted a card. It would not work prospectively, as people would just change their submitting habits, but wouldn't it be interesting to know for the millions of cards already graded?

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Stay tuned next week for Kevin's website launch. Will have endorsements from Rob Lifson, Mike Baker, Rich Mueller among others."<br /><br />I want to specifically see Mike Baker and Rob Lifson endorse/agree with the following paragraph from the Website:<br /><br />"In the future you will have the opportunity to send in your high valued graded sportscards for an in-depth examination by, who many consider, the top expert in the field. Cards that pass will have a small "verified unaltered" tamper-evident hologram sticker placed on the back of the graded holder. This will hopefully add greater value to a card and an added security level when selling it."<br /><br />If Rob and Mike say that Kevin is more knowlegable then they are, Kevin will get some business from me. <br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />I have no idea what language Kevin will use but what he tells me I will tell the dealer.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>FWIW the coin industry is doing something similar. For a fee a person can send in a coin (already graded) and the syndicate (that is what they are calling it) of experienced dealers will attach a stamp of approval on the coin. It is more for hi end coins for the grade then alterations though. I for one would have no use for such a service yet at the same time understand how a collector like Jim may want to use one. Kevin is a friend of mine and I would trust his judgement if I needed such a service though.<br /><br />I personnaly think it is overlapping a service we already have with the grading co's.<br /><br /><br /><br />I should have prefaced my post with "this is just my opinion'<br /><br /><br />lest I be chastised for stating fact when I am only stating opinion.<br /><br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />You know that will not be the case so its silly to mention it. I think it is significant though that the most respected auction house in the hobby and the leading grader are endorsing Kevin. Certainly not surprised that Rob would take a stand like this.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Does Rob even know Kevin? I doubt Rob is going to reject consignments based on Kevin's opinion. That would be suicide for REA.

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>IF PSA & SGC BOTH SAY a card is ungradeable, I have more faith in BOTH than either one alone, even if Kevin gives his opinion, no offense to Kevin. Jim Crandall wants to protect himself by not putting any more money into expensive cards without some help, no problem, that makes sense, Kevin obviously has doctoring skills to share. <br /><br />Mr. Crandall fails to see one very important aspect, this is NOT cleaning up the hobby if that was his real goal, this is just protecting his future endeavors. This is OK but is just that, it is an act to help him have eyes that he feels are better than SGC or PSA have. <br /><br />The really ironic thing is the quantity of bad cards that Jim must have( based on 28,000 psa cards bought over 15 years or so) just based on percentages should be the first to be examined if he is concerned about altering, that would be a real cleanup. Jim, we all know you do not want this because it will devalue your collection and you want your family to keep your collection for posterity anyway. PSA should be partially responsible if Kevin expertise found that PSA is wrong and can substantiate this with documentation. This will change things for the better, enforcement with proof. Otherwise, Jim, use Kevin and most of us will rely on SGC and PSA, the two companies similar findings will stand for more combined that any individual or company, or if you like raw cards, believe in your own judgement.<br /><br />If SGC and PSA BOTH say it is no good, that is the best insurance combo you can get, in my humble opinion.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Larry,<br /><br />You are either incredibly uninformed or want to discredit Kevin and/or me--either way it is a very low thing to do and you should be ashamed of yourself.<br /><br />You have never seen one card I own--most of my cards were raw cards I sent in myself but you could care less about the actual facts.<br /><br />Yes I care about the hobby--do you??--apparently not throwing around such lies. I also in the future want to buy cards I am sure are untampered with--sorry you cannot get that through your thick skull. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Are you aware that the person that you think is the 'top expert in the field' doesn't know how (and doesn't even think it's possible) to stretch a card? That says it all, my friend. Stretching is one of the easiest and most common processes involved in card alteration.<br /><br />Tom

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Whether or not Jim sends his cards to Kevin is a non issue in my opinion.<br /><br />The real issue, if you think there is one, is that there are a handful or more of people who are very very good at doctoring cards and they have made a great deal of money getting these cards past the grading services for many years and continue to do so, particularly PSA who grades far more cards than SGC. Since PSA does not tell you on a cert check who submitted a card, the collector has no way to know if he is buying these cards or not. Ebay, auctions, every other channel you might buy from are full of these cards. It's just a fact of life. I don't see it changing much, frankly, and I am just as guilty as anyone else of wishful thinking (i.e., MY cards aren't bad).

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Not just my opinion but the opinion of most informed people in the hobby--not aware of the stretching argument

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm missing something here.<br /><br />Do you mean to say that if Rob auctions a graded card, the winning bidder shows it to Kevin, and Kevin feels it is altered, Rob will then give the buyer a full refund? Then what does he tell his consignor? I don't get this.

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>No way Rob is going to do that in my opinion.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I have to laugh at all the opinions that seem to attack Jim or Kevin. It seems they have a business venture they are willing to try and feel it will work. If you don't like it, so be it, you obviously won't use it. But if his service makes you more comfartable about making a big purchase than you will more than likely use him. <br /><br />They will sink or fail on their own merit no skin off your back if you don't use them. Otherwise it certainly will not affect you.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Do you know how many consignments an auction house would lose under those circumstances? Why would a consignor agree to that? Again, I may be misunderstanding this.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share."<br /><br />Jim,<br />If none of your 50,000 graded cards have any problem, then:<br />1) What makes you think that everybody else's graded cards are altered and that the grading companies have done such a poor job of identifying altered cards?<br />2) Why do you think an additional service on top of what the grading companies already do is either necessary or will provide something not already covered? Wouldn't this just be redundant and problematic?<br /><br />If they have been correct 50,000 out of 50,000 times with your collection, then it seems that everything must be in working order.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Come on--you are smarter than that--just because Rob gives Kevin an endorsement does not mean there is a return privledge.<br /><br />Lee,<br /><br />Thats one reason I like your brother and Scott's board--you avoid the lunatics.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JimB,<br /><br />I didn't know you were on LTS! Congratulations!<br /><br />Did not say I did not have any problem cards--just have no idea which they may be.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Jim C are you suggesting there are lunatics on this Board? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />See post 64.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share."<br /><br />“Did not say I did not have any problem cards--just have no idea which they may be.”<br /><br />Isn't that what Kevin is here for? Cleaning the hobby starts at home, right? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>You know my stance on that.<br /><br />Do you like LTS?<br /><br />Did you vote for or against Kevin coming back on?