T201 Mecca - Master Set COMPLETE!
 

T201 Mecca Double Folders – Master Set Complete? New Discovery, New Theory?

see last post! Master Set Completed@

Hey All!

I am one of the fortunate folks that got my start to my tobacco card collection by winning the tobacco card lottery. My Grandpap was 12 years old in 1909; he was one of those “Newsies” hawking newspapers on the streets of NYC, while he was smoking Mecca cigarettes. I am sure he also harassed gentlemen coming out of the tobacco store begging for the double folders from their fresh packs. When he passed I inherited his shoebox of prized possessions from his rough childhood, amazed that they survived all those years!

He was obviously a Mecca man as most of the cards I inherited were the awesome double folders. Initially I had 65 or so double folders. I started swapping/trading or selling dupes to eventually make a full set. I then began upgrading, completed a few more sets to sell at auction, and fell under the “Master Set” spell. I began pursuing Factory sets about 2 years ago. My purchase of a Rucker/Daubert Factory 30 back last night, I believe (see below) completes my master set run (49/50 Factory 30 & 50/50 Factory 649).

By compiling several sets, research and reading about the double folders, the general hobby consensus is that the Lord/Dougherty is the only “short print” in the set as it could only be found with a Factory 649 back. I observed that the Lord/Dougherty is actually quite prevalent and easy to find for sale, albeit with a bit of a premium price.

My personal observations, as well as observations and postings from several other members are that the Kling/Cole is one of the harder cards to find. So here is my breaking news on the set.

I FOUND A Factory 30 Lord/Dougherty!! Located and purchased at the national this year. Photo is attached. I don’t know if this is one of a kind, or if there are many others out there and collectors just have not been cognizant of the Factory designations?? Admittedly I have been checking for another with a Factory 30 back since the National and haven’t located another.

Here is my NEW THEORY: I believe that the Kling/Cole is actually the short print of the set as I have been searching for a Kling/Cole Factory 30 back for 2 years and have not found one. I would ask that members of the Board search their Kling/Cole backs and either support or refute my theory. I would like to know either way. If none are found with a Factory 30 then my theory is likely correct. If there are Factory 30 Kling/Cole’s out there then my Master Set quest will continue!

I would appreciate any comments &/or assistance in searching for the Kling/Cole F30 back. If you find one of course would be interested in purchasing or swapping as I have many T201 dupes.

Thanks for your time and assistance!!

Also I would like to thank fellow Board members for assisting with swaps & sales of T201’s to help me along the way. Also special shout to Zach Wheat for sharing his knowledge and for the awesome T201 article in the Old Cardboard magazine. Also special acknowledgement to Keith Temple for his continued support of my upgrade quests.

Thanks again!

Cliff

Attachment 167939

Attachment 167940

Congrats on your acquisition! I know what a kick it is to find a scarce variation after looking for so long. I don't collect T201 myself, but was wondering if you could explain or point us to where there is a discussion of how the T201s were printed and/or their sheet assignments. For example, why isn't the Lord/Dougherty a short-print even though you found one? Sounds like it's tough and you wonder if it might be one of a kind--that would meet the criteria of a short print, no?

I used to collect T202s which, as you may know, were also printed only at Factories 30 and 649. The latter printed the backs only in black and the former mostly in red, but advanced collectors know that there are Fact 30s that can be found in black--not ridiculously scarce but far from common. Most sales make no distinction and ask for no premium, which may be happening here, although it sounds like you've scoured the market and come up empty. Good luck in your quest and please keep us posted.

Congrats, Cliff!
 

That is so cool to have a master set complete (unh, we think, pending proof to the contrary). Cant remember where I read the Lord card was shortprinted with factory 30 being the culprit but it's more than one source (maybe just one source, others repeating? Who knows at this point?)

No F30 Lord/Dougherty here, altho I have three F649 myself. As for Cole/kling, it took me over two years to find a decent quality specimen in factory 649 and it's still not the grade I am looking for. Oh well.

Be well, happy hunting!

Cliff...great work! The 201 set never seems to get the credit it deserves.

I checked mine and both are factory 649. And to possibly add to what you are stating about Kling/Cole...it was one of the last six I needed to complete my set. Kling/Cole was probably the one card in the set that I had a hard time finding and was never available in abundance.

Keep up the good work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Same here. That was the last one I needed for my set. I thought it was by far the toughest in the set. It was really tough in the pre-internet days.

Experienced the same with Kling/Cole. I did not collect the entire set, just certain players and abandoned it for imagery reasons before I ever landed the Kling. This thread should get some hype behind them.

Cliff,

Nice thread.

Now, if you really wanted to take on a T201 project regarding the different Factory Numbers then you could track ebay (there's always a lot of T201s for sale) and come up with a distribution of the different Factory Numbers.

What would you say the distribution is? Are there (5) Factory 649 for every Factory 30 back?

How many people went to ebay after reading this thread to see how many Factory 30 backs there were and how many looked for a Kling/Cole Factory 30 T201?

I've always liked the T201 set because it provides a beginning collector with a realistic chance of completing a "T" card set.

Good questions. Unfortunately any survey will be skewed by the number of cards represented outside of eBay. Did a quick review of the cards I hold, around 62 purchased irregardless of backs , or factory number. Ten cards are F30, so around six to one?

You gotta start somewhere...

Keith

I just checked the 40 cards I have from this set. Of the 40, all purchased with no knowledge of the factory designation, six of them are from Factory 30. Sadly, neither of them are my Cole/Kling or Lord/Daugherty.

Nice find!

I myself never collected the t201 set but actually am going to start it this upcoming year. I go to local shows often so I will def keep my eyes peeled. I agree with a lot of people on here that this set doesn't get the respect that's due. Hopefully one day it will.

I always enjoy having cards from this set

jimmy

T201
 

great story about the grandpap and your love for this great set.
also pleased to see the shoutout to Z. Wheat, a prince of a fellow, with a
groundbreaking article in OC.

all the best,
barry

T201 Kling Cole Factory 30 Back
 

Barry,

Thanks you are too kind.

Sorry for responding to the thread so late, but have been traveling quite a bit. Cliff, here is a Kling Cole Factory 30 back. Factory 30 backs account for about 17% of the cards printed. I think Cliff brings out several interesting points. I think the set is not well understood and am glad to see some discussion.

In the original article, I had to cut out almost 75% of the material as the article was just too long. However, I have always thought that there were other short prints that weren't recognized and the set was printed over a number of years with a regional bias towards NY teams. Factory 649 was in Rochester (home of the Eastern Association Broncho's) and 4 of the 6 EA teams were represented in the T201. The NY area accounted for a significant & disproportionate percentage of the cigarette market in the 1910's. In addition, I believe Factory 30 was relocating - but am unsure - into what became the House of Mecca in or near Brooklyn. I got this information from The American Tobacco Companies own "biography" detailing their cigarettes, brands & production.

This would help explain some of the anomalies

I own about 300 T201's and reviewed many thousand more. I knew most of the stars were printed 4,5 & 6 times relative to certain other cards but could never firmly establish how many cards of each were printed relative to the other cards. T201's were notoriously miscut. I compared the miscut edges of cards and you can tell the relative location on a sheet of cards from one card over the other, etc.

I found a number of odd things about the miscut cards and what it implied about production quantity of each card. Need to run now, but will try to chime in later.

Cliff you are on the right track.

Z Wheat

Wow, nice corners on that Kling/Cole, Mr Zach Wheat
 

Keep looking, Cliff!

Busted Theory
 

Thanks Mr. Wheat! GR8 stuff as usual, thanks for chiming in. Also thanks for busting my theory on the Kling/Cole F30 short print :mad:

Just kidding - glad to know the F30's exist and my quest for the Master Set continues! The thrill is in the hunt!

I suspect that we can still consider the Lord/Dougherty a short print even though one factory 30 turned up. From all the emails and PM's it seems that so far I've found the only one! Keep the emails coming if you find another.

I am still interested to see if anyone else has run across a F30 Kling/Cole. From everyones responses, the Kling/Cole does seem to be harder to find than others. Perhaps it is due to only having one card on a sheet with larger amounts of stars at the time with multiple copies on a printing sheet?

I am trying to archive some photos of miscuts I run across and someday hope to start to peice together side by side sheet positions... someday!

thanks to all the T201 FANS that responded with words of encouragement!

the hunt continues!

Cliff

After completing that set I never understood why Lord/Daugherty card was considered hard to obtain. There were quite a few errors in the "Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards".

A big error that I think/hope has finally been corrected in the "Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards" is the existence of an N162 Dunlop on Detroit. My guess is some hobby veteran indicated he mistakenly had the card and based on that collectors status the publisher of the catalog listed it as a part of the set. What was really odd is that the "Detroit" version (non-existant) was listed as the cheaper of the two cards (Detroit or Pittsburgh team designation).

Perhaps the Lord/Daugherty was difficult for some advanced collector(s) to find (before the days of the internet) so when the original card catalogs were published the card was deemed scarce or a short print based on a false assumption. That is what I truly believe. I bet any adavanced collector that has gone after the T201 set will tell you Lord/Daugherty is not difficult to find.

I agree. There have been a good number available on Ebay since I started collecting the set last year.

I went through my set and had 15 F30s. Both of my Lord and Kling were F649.

Thanks for sharing.

Since starting this set a few weeks ago I have been doing a lot of reading. Really enjoyed reading the information on this post.
Hoping to hear any updates on factory 30 vrs 649 numbers since the original post. Additionally, Cliff have you found your Kling/Cole F30 yet?

Happy hunting.
Craig

Master Set Update
 

Hey Craig!

welcome to the set of "perfect Satisfaction!"

still hammering away at a Master set. I also collect the non sports mecca set (EX:t42 birds) and with all the Mecca sets it seems the Factory 30's are "less prevalent" than the F 649's.

We have learned that a T201 Master set IS POSSIBLE in that Zach Wheat has a F30 Kling/Cole (which I need) and I have a F30 Lord/Dougherty (which he needs)! So I am sitting at 99/100 for a Master Set :-(

Neither one of us is relenting to the other so the stalemate continues!

I will be the guy at the National in Cleveland irritating all the dealers by turning all the T201's upside down!

The quest continues....

I have upgraded several cards, (good news for me bad news for him) in that Keith broke up his beautiful SGC registry set, i was proud to win a couple at auction.

All of my cards are SGC so one day when I get some time to get them separated on the registry.

Welcome to the Double Folder club! its a great set!

TTYL!

Cliff

So much fun
 

Cliff,

Having such a good time with these.

I hadn't found any vintage Des Moines or Iowa baseball items lately. A member posted in BST a Clarke/Byrne Since Fred Clarke is from Winterset, Iowa and just a few miles from me I could justify picking it up. Had to go show my dad as soon as it arrived. My father pulled out a Summers/Jennings I gave him for Christmas 25 or so years ago.

Here 2-3 weeks later, I've jumped in feet first into the world of T201s. I've picked up another seven cards looking for F30 but haven't discriminated against F649. No plans on working towards a master set but can really appreciate your efforts.

So far I've picked up:
Clarke/Byrne F649
Stovall/Turner F649
Baker/Downie F649
Brown/Hofma F649
Mathewson/Bridwell F649
Summers/Jennings F30
Laff/Barry F30
Killian/Fitzpatrick F30
Crawford/Cobb F30

Not going for high grade, just no trimming, missing pieces, writing, tears, etc.

Craig

Picked up a T201 Mecca 30 Lord/Dougherty...to go with my Mecca 649 with Burdick stamps...

Very nice pickup

Always like the Burdick stamps on cards....

Thank you, Craig and Leon. Craig (or all) have you added any recent T201's?

Here is a Titus/Dooin miscut. I don't know the set well enough to know the additional card, but one of you might know. If not, I may go through to see what card is alongside.

Here are the current psa pop #'s

Highest-- Cobb/Crawford 411
Lowest-- Kling/Cole 145
Lush/Hauser 157
Titus/Dooin 157
Lord/Daugherty 174

Cobb is often the highest in any set he is in. Not only were people more likely to keep a Cobb card, they were more likely to get it graded...Rob

It's not WaJohttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c9c1b16050.jpg

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Tyrus
 

Here's one I used to own--that's Crawford and Cobb joining Turner and Stovall
https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...t201miscut.jpg

Lord/Dougherty Factory 30!
 

WOW!!!

NICE FIND ROB!

According to my tabulations, your Lord/Dougherty Factory 30 is the third known copy!

I found one years ago (original post) at the National. My T201 buddy and T201 Guru & board member Mike Wheat just stole one off Ebay last month!

Attachment 389998
Attachment 389999


Your copy makes number THREE that has come to light!

I suspect that there was at least one sheet of Factory 30's made so if a sheet was a minimum of 9 cards there should be 6 more floating around. Based upon some of the miscuts that Mike and I have been collecting it seems that some of the popular players had at least one line across of copies on a sheet, with some of the lesser players having only one or two copies per sheet?

this theory may be out the window with the new post of the Cobb with turner/stovall :-(

Regardless... great set, keep the miscuts coming Mike and I are trying to archive them with hopes to do something with them someday :-)

Still working on the T201 Master Set, still missing the Kling/Cole Factory 30 with only one copy known that Mr. Wheat has, although recent update a generoud board member may be able to hook me up with my very own copy:D

Will post an update accordingly...

NICE FIND ROB!

T201 cards are a must have if you like odd angular cuts.

Brian

Signed T201s
 

T201s are great signed. I love mine.

Here’s one signed by Leifield and stamped by Burdick:

https://live.staticflickr.com/8081/2...0de55a1e_o.jpg

Here’s Doyle/Meyers signed by both:

https://live.staticflickr.com/8244/2...34550479_o.jpg

All of my signed T201s lined up in a beautiful row...

https://live.staticflickr.com/803/41...4ee4f26d_o.jpg

Thanks, Cliff, I thought you would like the Dougherty factory 30. GL on the Kling...

Paul, nice run of cards. Do you know if the Burdick card was already signed when he got it? Did Burdick buy the card already signed or did he get it signed?

Here's M. Brown...

Thanks! I have a theory that he traded the T201 to John D. Wagner, who got it signed. I have evidence that Wagner was one of the pioneer TTM signed card collectors. Here’s his correspondence with Fred Snodgrass, by which he secured a signed T206 card...

https://live.staticflickr.com/7909/3...2fd23bdb_o.jpg

That Snodgrass and letter are out of this world cool. Can't get much better provenance than that.

T201 Redux
 

Congrats Cliff on the complete Master Set!! The first Master Set ever completed as far as I know. For those that don't know, Cliff and I have been discussing, texting, emailing about different items we have discovered about the set, since the 1st article in Old Cardboard (Spring, 2014).

After looking at the set for so long, the set appears to have many quirks that frankly might never be explained. I have some guesses to the questions posed above. A few random thoughts follow.

Factory 30 backs definitely are more scarce than F649. There seem to be 4 or 5 players that are more scarce than others. Following are some thoughts on why this may have occurred.

During the presumed time period for issuance of this set, the House of Mecca was in the process of relocating outside NY. ATC's own biographical depiction detailed in "Sold American! The First 50 Years" covering the periods from 1904 to 1954, seems to suggest they were struggling to brand & re-brand each type of cigarette after the breakup of the ATC and just prior to the issuance of this set. In fact, letters published from the elder Duke to his son, now stored at one of the NC libraries indicates the elder Duke imploring his son to have more wholesome images inserted into tobacco card packs.

The set appears to be distributed over several years and many of the teams/players have a NY association.
The F30 & F649 stamps seem to have been added "after" the cards were printed. If you look closely at the factory designation at the bottom reverse of each card, you will find that be base back design is consistent from card to card, but the alignment of the factory designation is not. This suggests that the Factory designation was not printed at the same time as the reverse.

The set has a peculiar population density based upon the # of cards for each player. Cobb for example, appears to be at least quadruple printed. Since the T201 was notoriously mis-cut side-to-side and you can tell by the different edge combinations of which player was adjacent to another player on a sheet. The same can be said for many HOF’ers in the set. Likewise, I have only found 1 edge combination for other players.

Apologies for the long winded post, but these and other factors appear to have affected the population of F30 cards we see today.

Congrats again to Cliff. You have put in a lot of hard work!

Z

t201
 

After looking over my set my Cole/kling is 649 along with Lord Daugherty.
I picked up these 2 beauties 20 years ago but getting the rest in this condition was difficult. Both 649's

T201 Master Set - COMPLETE - 100/100!!!!
 

Hey Fellas!

Thanks Zach, gr8 synopsis of this super fun set!

gotta love the power of this board and GENEROSITY of the board members! Upon reading this post, Mr. Brian Parker (brianp-beme) noted that he had a Kling/Cole Mecca Factory 30 in his complete set. He graciously offered it to me in return for a similar condition Kling/Cole F649 to maintain his full set and to help me with my quest!!! This done out of the goodness of his heart and spirit of cooperation. Not often that something like this happens, I know that the card God's will smile upon Mr. Parker someday and hope that he will stumble upon a magical card find that will fulfill his collecting wishes!

Thanks Brian! you are a true Gentleman!

So that being said, I have finally completed my Master set quest with all 50 cards with F649 and all 50 cards with F30 backs! :D

added bonus that there is a sliver of another player in the right side of the Kling/Cole F30 that with a little research I should be able to ID the player/sheet mate.... great stuff...

So we have now two known Kling/Coles with F30 backs.... hope we can dig up a few more out there...

here are some pics of the new acquisition:

Attachment 390718

Attachment 390719

Attachment 390721

Thanks AGAIN Brian!

Cliff

That's great, Cliff and Brian. Fun to see a complete Master set....Rob

Thanks to the work of many here, I jumped into work on this master set. I'm close but you can all image two that I'm missing for sure. Please remember me when the next ones pop their heads up. Fortunately, with information on this board I concentrated on fact 30 when building my initial set.

Congratulations gentleman great accomplishment. I hope to someday join your elusive club.

Craig

Third Known Factory 30 Kilng/Cole & Lord/Dougherty!
 

Hey T201 Brethren!

Picked up the third know cards of Kling/Cole and Lord/Dougherty in the Birmingham Auction (thanks Scott) :-)

They are in rough shape but factory number is visible!

Gotta be more out there, at least one sheets worth!

Enjoy!

Cliff

Attachment 415569

Attachment 415570

Attachment 415571

Attachment 415572

Attachment 415573

Attachment 415574

Great to see a 3rd Factory 30 Kling/Cole poke out from its shell. We went from "Not Kling Cole" to the "King Cole Trio" in a relatively short time. Congrats!

Brian (sometimes I believe I exist solely to share such pithy nonsense)

Are there any unopened Mecca tobacco packs known to exist that match all the elements of having a T201 inside? Would love to see a pic of those packs look like.

T201 Mecca Pack & Coupon Photo
 

Hey Chris!

see the attached photo of a Mecca slide pack! I didnt pull a card from the pack but stuck one in the pack to display on my shelf. I imagine this is what it would look like pulling one out of a pack?

TTYL!

Cliff

Attachment 415701

Thx for sharing Cliff, that's a very impressive collection that u have! Well Done!

Nice job Cliff on the pick up. You have eagle eyes....constantly scouting for the rare F30's. And it seems to me that the factory #'s were added to the cards AFTER the cards were printed. I have always believed a full set of F30's was out there.

T206 - Love your signed T201's. I may have to start collecting signed ones!

A couple of F30 miscuts for your viewing pleasure
 

Attachment 415775

Thought maybe someone might like seeing these again. I always do...

Cliff was kind enough to reach out to me about his discovery. He offered me the Kling/Cole for my master set. I feel like a 10 year old waiting on Christmas. My wifey is sooo tired of me taking about this card for the last week or so. I am thrilled to be a part of such a great group of people. Cliff 2024 POTUS.

Cliff is a truly good guy. And Craig, you will be in rare company if you can complete a master set! I am still working on a master set. It was never a priority for me, but I am so close.....

Thanks Zach. I have kind of put my master set on the back burner for a while and been picking up T205s. I was somewhat concerned that I would never find these two. I've kept my eyes out for them and if found would put more effort into the master. Now that I am receiving one of the two, I'm refocusing. Good luck on finishing yours Zach.

Craig

He has my vote too! Very cool pickup. Have always thought these two cards must be a clue to the sheet layouts, but that there are seemingly only two SP's at random doesn't fit with the other evidence I am aware of.

Great thread...