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ullmandds 08-12-2019 01:49 PM
[QUOTE=Johnny630;1907749]Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......it’s all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

and this is your prerogative...BUT...it seems most DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!

Johnny630 08-12-2019 02:26 PM
[QUOTE=ullmandds;1907752]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1907749)
Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......it’s all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

and this is your prerogative...BUT...it seems most DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!
You’re correct Pete they don’t care so the vast majority will remain happy selling, pushing, pumping, shilling, and manipulating all along while bragging about their PSA graded cards.

It’s garbage...total trash.

ullmandds 08-12-2019 02:35 PM
Someone on facebook was showing off his new acquisitions from one of the big AH's this past weekend...one card looked really bad to me...totally overgraded and likely altered higher grade Goudey Ruth. His response to me was:

" I’m more of the camp of the system is what it is. Collectors either believe in the system or they don’t. Nobody thinks their cards grade high enough and that’s everybody’s else’s are too high. If it is fake that’s concerning but I don’t get caught up in trying to degrade. Appreciate the insight."

Johnny630 08-12-2019 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1907778)
Someone on facebook was showing off his new acquisitions from one of the big AH's this past weekend...one card looked really bad to me...totally overgraded and likely altered higher grade Goudey Ruth. His response to me was:

" I’m more of the camp of the system is what it is. Collectors either believe in the system or they don’t. Nobody thinks their cards grade high enough and that’s everybody’s else’s are too high. If it is fake that’s concerning but I don’t get caught up in trying to degrade. Appreciate the insight."
That attitude is why I’m out of this Industry....I can’t stomach it....What about all the people that have done it right over the years? What a big up yours to them…… The new generation only wants to gamble they could care less about quality it’s only about the label of the Newport Beach Slab.
To many people are making money....Nothing is going to change except more agreed in the industry

Bocabirdman 08-12-2019 02:43 PM
Of course guys, one point that hasn't been made is that if you eliminate TPGs, the card doctors only streamline their deception. Buy a card, screw with it and resell it. I am not sure that it much better. :eek:

Also, in the pre-TPG world there was an on-going problem with individual grading opinions. One guy's VG/EX was another's VG ...... or EX. In addition, there were unscrupulous vendors pulling straight up bait and switches. It was tough to prove it where it was one raw card substituted for another. The TPG world is not perfect but I am not sure things would be better without them.

I wonder if there are any possible technical advances available that could actually put card doctors out of business. The U.S. Mint sure has a helluva hard time staying one step ahead of the forgers.........

HRBAKER 08-12-2019 02:48 PM
Before TPG all of the altered cards were raw, at least now you have a choice of how you like them, raw or slabbed. :p
Slabbing certainly appears to have made it a higher paying profession.

Paul S 08-12-2019 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 1907732)
If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?
No, I would only consign it to a lot that used the term "Pre Owned"...sounds much nicer than "Used Car", and you get a little sticker saying as much;)

HRBAKER 08-12-2019 03:10 PM
Coin vs Conscience, a struggle as old as man :D:):p:cool::eek:

Rhotchkiss 08-12-2019 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1907784)
That attitude is why I’m out of this Industry....I can’t stomach it....
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......

jhs5120 08-12-2019 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 1907807)
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......
It’s like a bunch of vegans barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.

CMIZ5290 08-12-2019 03:58 PM
As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....

ullmandds 08-12-2019 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907813)
As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....
minnow huh? funny you were PSA's biggest fanboy until very recently Kevin.

Johnny630 08-12-2019 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 1907807)
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......
You’re correct my stomach does need a break...this will be my last post about this.

bnorth 08-12-2019 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1907815)
You’re correct my stomach does need a break...this will be my last post about this.
Please don't stop posting about it. If everyone stops posting about it the scum bags win because it will go away.

egri 08-12-2019 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 1907807)
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120 (Post 1907809)
It’s like a bunch of vegans barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.
I don’t like the fraud, but the Hamlet act some of the posters here are putting on about leaving the hobby is getting old. I accept that this is a billion dollar a year unregulated industry, and so there are fakes everywhere, including probably in my collection. I sleep well at night knowing that I’ve done my due diligence to make that a number I can live with. If other members do not feel that way, fine, that’s their prerogative, but then when they keep making posts about being done with the hobby, with nothing new or constructive to add, I get irritated.

Johnny630 08-12-2019 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by egri (Post 1907819)
I don’t like the fraud, but the Hamlet act some of the posters here are putting on about leaving the hobby is getting old. I accept that this is a billion dollar a year unregulated industry, and so there are fakes everywhere, including probably in my collection. I sleep well at night knowing that I’ve done my due diligence to make that a number I can live with. If other members do not feel that way, fine, that’s their prerogative, but then when they keep making posts about being done with the hobby, with nothing new or constructive to add, I get irritated.
Everything I have said has been constructive, I think most would agree on this board. I don’t wanna piss off anyone. It is what it is at this point.

BeanTown 08-12-2019 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907813)
As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....
Soooo, Joe has been selling off his stock and maybe this is Brent's way of selling off his stock to? Wonder what percentage of cards are from consignors compared to family/friends.

Peter_Spaeth 08-12-2019 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanTown (Post 1907829)
Soooo, Joe has been selling off his stock and maybe this is Brent's way of selling off his stock to? Wonder what percentage of cards are from consignors compared to family/friends.
Joe sold some stock to cover the tax obligations on options that vested.

perezfan 08-12-2019 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1907820)
Everything I have said has been constructive, I think most would agree on this board. I don’t wanna piss off anyone. It is what it is at this point.
I don’t think that losing interest is a reason to stop posting. Wanting things fixed is a noble cause, and perhaps these call-outs will help in some way. I read that Law Enforcement does frequent this site quite often. So while some don’t like the negativity, it doesn’t hurt to voice your opinion. Plus it just feels good to vent!

I happen to agree with your insights and opinions, but can understand the other side as well. I see how the repeated gloom and doom could be a big buzzkill to dedicated collectors. I personally still love collecting, but feel like we’ve been taken to the cleaners over the past few years. I’m sure people roll their eyes at my comments, and I did stop posting for about a month. But then realized that if I can’t vent here, where the hell can I? My wife doesn’t get it, and my friends don’t care. The Beagle is the only one who’ll listen... and then even he starts howling!

CMIZ5290 08-12-2019 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1907814)
minnow huh? funny you were PSA's biggest fanboy until very recently Kevin.
Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...

ullmandds 08-12-2019 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907832)
Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...
Ever heard of Anger Management, Kevin? Did I say something that was/isn't true?

CMIZ5290 08-12-2019 04:53 PM
I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry

CuriousGeorge 08-12-2019 05:03 PM
Is there a reason the temper meter always goes from 1 to 10 instantly? The annoyance presented to you can’t always be the exact same can it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907834)
I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry

brianp-beme 08-12-2019 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S (Post 1907790)
No, I would only consign it to a lot that used the term "Pre Owned"...sounds much nicer than "Used Car", and you get a little sticker saying as much;)
My ebay ID is used-cards. I guess I should have chosen "pre-ownedcards". All these years I must have been sending out the wrong impression about my condition challenged cardboard vehicles. What in the heck was I thinking 15 years ago?

Brian

oldjudge 08-12-2019 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1907662)
So what's going to happen if a new TPG comes into being using advanced methods to weed out alterations, the result being for a card to hold its value a seller will be forced to have it re slabbed by this new company? Is the government going to shut down this new company because PSA is too big to fail?

The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby. And IMO no rational new buyer will opt for a currently graded PSA card if word has gotten out that they might be tainted and there is another grading alternative. Given the startup costs to create such a new TPG, I think one can safely assume that if this new company is successfully launched, its founders will have been smart enough to have budgeted that which is necessary to effectively market its product and make clear its superiority to current grading methods.
Sounds great theoretically, but I don’t see it happening. If anything, computer aided authentication may be added to PSA or SGCs current analysis. Having said that, I don’t know how it would work. Take an area I know a little about-Old Judges. Please tell me what you would have the machine look for to detect a rebacked card? As long as no trimming was necessary it’s really is tough to tell.

CMIZ5290 08-12-2019 05:12 PM
Pete, For the record, let's please get this right for a final time. Do I think PSA is innocent and none of these accusations true? Absolutely not....I have argued on this Board about grading preference by all of the TPG's, not just PSA....I have seen T206s graded PSA 8 by a "reputable" dealer on Ebay that look like 6's. I have also seen SGC graded key rookies in a grade of 98 (1963 Topps Rose for one) that look like they should be 84's, again, by a "reputable" dealer. In simple terms, you can easily take a T206 HOFer that is encased as a 7 (1500-2000 card) and easily get it into an 8 holder (10K or better) if the grader is crooked and the company corrupt....That's huge bucks. I have always argued corruption to some degree with grading among all TPGs.....So please, leave your limited perception of PSA on the doorstep......

CMIZ5290 08-12-2019 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1907839)
Is there a reason the temper meter always goes from 1 to 10 instantly? The annoyance presented to you can’t always be the exact same can it?
Don't even get me started with you.....Better go take a nap

Peter_Spaeth 08-12-2019 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 1907843)
Sounds great theoretically, but I don’t see it happening. If anything, computer aided authentication may be added to PSA or SGCs current analysis. Having said that, I don’t know how it would work. Take an area I know a little about-Old Judges. Please tell me what you would have the machine look for to detect a rebacked card? As long as no trimming was necessary it’s really is tough to tell.
I also wonder how a machine would look for a factory edge especially where some of the elite doctors are now able to do a passable job of simulating them? Maybe but sounds awfully futuristic.

Fuddjcal 08-12-2019 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 (Post 1907690)
I don't cheat....therin lies the rub. You want to piss off a bunch of collectors and hobbyist because of the greed of Moser and Brent. I tell you what. YOU get out of the hobby, and I will be right behind you. Since it's all corrupt anyway.
I already am fruitcake, your still pooping...:D:D:D

ullmandds 08-12-2019 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907844)
Pete, For the record, let's please get this right for a final time. Do I think PSA is innocent and none of these accusations true? Absolutely not....I have argued on this Board about grading preference by all of the TPG's, not just PSA....I have seen T206s graded PSA 8 by a "reputable" dealer on Ebay that look like 6's. I have also seen SGC graded key rookies in a grade of 98 (1963 Topps Rose for one) that look like they should be 84's, again, by a "reputable" dealer. In simple terms, you can easily take a T206 HOFer that is encased as a 7 (1500-2000 card) and easily get it into an 8 holder (10K or better) if the grader is crooked and the company corrupt....That's huge bucks. I have always argued corruption to some degree with grading among all TPGs.....So please, leave your limited perception of PSA on the doorstep......
Interesting that you always favored ultra high grade vintage in light of your "comments?"

CMIZ5290 08-12-2019 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1907850)
Interesting that you always favored ultra high grade vintage in light of your "comments?"
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? C'Mon Pete.....I'm am naming cards that I was familiar with....What exactly is your hard on about? Just wondering.....PSA? PWCC?

Fuddjcal 08-12-2019 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael B (Post 1907697)
My brother has been a mechanic for over 40 years so I have learned a little, though not much, about cars and engines. Bored means that the cylinder was bored out to increase the size. This means you also use larger pistons. This increases the total displacement of the engine. In your case it was increased from 454 cubic inches to 464. You get the displacement by getting the volume of each cylinder by measuring the displacement between when the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder to the top. You multiply by the number of cylinders to get the total displacement. Stroked means that you modified the crankshaft so that the piston travels farther into the cylinder which creates greater displacement and power. Those numbers are no longer used as all manufacturers have gone to liters. A 400 engine would be 6.6 liters, a 464 would be around 7 liters..
I did not know that, thank you very much. I do know that I still managed to make it to Malibu today AND with the 600HP, IT WAS STILL FAST. I could hardly keep the wheels on the ground!!! VROOMMMMM. Still. I'm feeling empty inside because I have no stroker and I really really wanted one. Just like I wanted PSA to tell me if a card has been trimmed....I had the feeling I couldn't trust them but they soaked me for a bundle the last 2 years alone anyway. I am a schmuck. I blame myself. I knew it but was under the spell.

That doesn't mean I will continue to get my teeth kicked in, like so many other dopey mc dope dopes that can't quit it.

Have a little pride and give it a rest for a while. Just say no & quit popping. It is very stupid and not very useful anyway, IMHO.

ullmandds 08-12-2019 05:46 PM
i have no hard on...atleast none for anything having to do with you, Kevin.

I just find it funny how you are bragging about having said this or that forever...when PSA/TPG'ers are at the core of this problem...and you have been about as big a fan boy for it/high grade as long as I can remember. That's it!

Back to the ice...oh wait it's summer!

frankbmd 08-12-2019 05:49 PM
A Shortened Ode
 
PWCC is alive and well
It’s just the hobby going to hell
Forum members just getting sicker
While the usual suspects bicker
How about another scanner thread?
I think the last one is nearly dead
The forum really needs some new blood,
Shit, this poem’s trimmed, another dud.

Fuddjcal 08-12-2019 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bocabirdman (Post 1907786)
Of course guys, one point that hasn't been made is that if you eliminate TPGs, the card doctors only streamline their deception. Buy a card, screw with it and resell it. I am not sure that it much better. :eek:

Also, in the pre-TPG world there was an on-going problem with individual grading opinions. One guy's VG/EX was another's VG ...... or EX. In addition, there were unscrupulous vendors pulling straight up bait and switches. It was tough to prove it where it was one raw card substituted for another. The TPG world is not perfect but I am not sure things would be better without them.

I wonder if there are any possible technical advances available that could actually put card doctors out of business. The U.S. Mint sure has a helluva hard time staying one step ahead of the forgers.........
I certainly agree with you 100. The problem with the PSA system is that has create a billion dollar fraud you otherwise would never of had with out them. Maybe just in the millions.:D:D:D:D

Goudey77 08-12-2019 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907834)
I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry
Where’s 🍿 emoji. I’m just here for the entertainment...

Goudey77 08-12-2019 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1907859)
I certainly agree with you 100. The problem with the PSA system is that has create a billion dollar fraud you otherwise would never of had with out them. Maybe just in the millions.:D:D:D:D
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D

Paul S 08-12-2019 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907855)
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? C'Mon Pete.....I'm am naming cards that I was familiar with....What exactly is your hard on about? Just wondering.....PSA? PWCC?
Pete can't go ice fishing in August - so there goes your argument:)

wondo 08-12-2019 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goudey77 (Post 1907864)
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D
Welcome to the Net54 boards.

doug.goodman 08-12-2019 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd (Post 1907858)
PWCC is alive and well
It’s just the hobby going to hell
Forum members just getting sicker
While the usual suspects bicker
How about another scanner thread?
I think the last one is nearly dead
The forum really needs some new blood,
Shit, this poem’s trimmed, another dud.
Amazing.

What kind of scanner do...

ullmandds 08-12-2019 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S (Post 1907876)
Pete can't go ice fishing in August - so there goes your argument:)
if we're setting any records straight here...I have lived in MN 20 years...I have gone ice fishing ONCE!!!!!!!!!

bnorth 08-12-2019 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goudey77 (Post 1907864)
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D
Martin, I 100% agree with you. Those guys need to get the scandal to go away as fast as possible to protect their altered high end cards values.

The cards are in the industries most respected slabs. That should be all that matters, that and PWCC brings the best prices in their amazing completely honest auctions.:rolleyes:

steve B 08-12-2019 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120 (Post 1907809)
It’s like a bunch of vampires barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.
Fixed that for you! I think.... I might have fixed the wrong word, but I'll stand by my fix...:D

steve B 08-12-2019 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1907832)
Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...
If they're the best, I really should find someone who is organized and start my own service.
They've set the bar so low....

BigBeerGut 08-12-2019 07:39 PM
The guy who says *Stuff trumps all* is very cool I think. He is so right!
PWCC sales were higher this past month. Brent will never go to jail I am sick over this!

steve B 08-12-2019 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1907856)
I could hardly keep the wheels on the ground!!!
Then you need to have a serious talk with your tire and suspension guys. You're leaving sooo much speed on the table!!!

MULLINS5 08-12-2019 09:58 PM
I'm one that has said they're out of the [graded] hobby.

PWCC, PSA, Brent, Joe, FBI, eBay, et cetera - who knows what will happen. I'm sitting back and

I've been building some pretty nice raw sets lately and having more fun than I did before

Peter_Spaeth 08-12-2019 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeerGut (Post 1907912)
The guy who says *Stuff trumps all* is very cool I think. He is so right!
PWCC sales were higher this past month. Brent will never go to jail I am sick over this!
Who this man could be I just don't know. :)

RedsFan1941 08-13-2019 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goudey77 (Post 1907864)
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D
this is the most spot-on accurate post in months. so much huffing and puffing here while the real work is being done elsewhere.

Goodsport40 08-13-2019 07:01 AM
Legal type question:

If the authorities are able to prove that Moser and Brent knowingly committed fraud by selling altered items as authentic(at higher grades due to trimming, etc.) would each item sold be considered one count of fraud each?

My apologies if this has been covered in another thread. Thanks.


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