NHL players (post 1970) that do not belong in the hockey Hall Of Fame?
 

Please educate me on Mark Howe. Is he really HOF worthy or was he awarded based on his last name?

Are there any players that you would not of put into the HOF?


List of members of the Hockey Hall of Fame

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_Hall_of_Fame

Not an inner circle guy and the name probably didn't hurt. But he had a long career starting as a good winger in the WHA & then as a top tier defenseman in the NHL for several years. The hockey hall of fame is more lenient than baseball's & anyone w/his resume is or will be elected whether or not his name is Howe.

I think he is also responsible for the nets no longer being anchored to the ice as he suffered a gruesome injury early in his career.

Mark Howe was a really good player, I have no problem with his HOF election. If Marty Howe made the HOF, it would definitely be on the family name.

Mark Howe was a fine one, well worthy of induction regardless of the family name. Incidentally,
his injury wasn't due to the net being anchored, but to its shape -- 'twas the spike formed by the
junction of the two semicircles of the back of the goal that produced the injury, and the injury
caused the shape of the nets to be changed soon thereafter. Now, for your consideration...

Three well-respected defensive forwards of the '70s, '80s, and '90s. Two are honoured in the Hall of Fame.
One, while a decent player, does not belong there. One is borderline, famous mainly on the shoulders of
his teammates' success. One is richly deserving of enshrinement but has never even been deemed worthy
of consideration by the idiot selectors. Guess which is which.

yrs GP __ G _ A_ Pts_ +/-_PIM 20+G 50+P Playoffs GP__G__A_Pts_ +/- _PIM
19 1318_ 260 403 663_ 186 820 _ 5 __ 5 ____ 17_ 231_ 38 55 93 _ 5__ 161
14 1070_ 252 420 672_ 324 201 _ 8 __ 8 ____ 12__ 89_ 17 31 48 _ 5___ 27
16 1160_ 239 262 501_ 201 585 _ 4 __ 0 ____ 16_ 182_ 25 48 73 _ 5__ 151

The guy who was famous because of his teammates is Bob Gainey. I'd only be guessing at the other two.

As a Ranger fan I always felt that Walt Tkaczuk was a better two way player than Bob Gainey & would be in the hall if the two had switched teams.

Shhhh...don't let a Habs fan hear you. I think that entire team is enshrined. Bob Gainey, they'll say, had an award created just for him (Selke). Denis Potvin did say that the only player that made him rush handling the puck was Gainey. I think after one of those Soviet Wings, Red Army series in the late 70s, the Red Army coach went on and on in the Forum saying Gainey was the best defensive forward he ever saw play.

But I digress. I'm with you, I am not a Gainey fan. But those are pretty heady comments from Potvin and the CCCP coach (name escapes me).

You want to talk about overrated, and Howard, you saw his entire career, Guy Carbonneau. I know you are a Ranger fan and that Isles team was probaby kryptonite for you at the time, but if I said, "Howard, choose between Guy Carbonneau or Butch Goring to start your team" are you ever picking Carbonneau? I mean, ever? Butch every time.

Honestly, you could have put Bob Bourne on those Habs teams and he would have been enshrined.

I remember reading that Craig Ramsey is the last player to go an entire season without committing a single penalty.

Oh yeah, I'm with you on that Kevin. Gainey was a good player but I take comments like Potvin's & the coach with a grain of salt. And you know I hated the Islanders but I always liked Goring & his old timey helmet. Carbonneau must be one of the guys Butch7999 was referring to. Yeah, another good player but overrated.

I think he was referring to Carboneau, Gainey and Craig Ramsey

Boom! Nailed Carbonneau...now I go to see who the other two are.

Ahh...that's the non-hall of famer Butch meant. Better offensive player than the other two & on par defensively but like my guy, Tkaczuk, Ramsey never won a Stanley Cup. Strangely, while Gainey was elevated by his teammates, Ramsey seemed to be overshadowed by his (the French Connection line of Martin, Perrault & Robert).

Very good, lads. Yes, the stat lines are, in order, top to bottom,
Gainey (HOF despite a minus player in many of his seasons by properly adjusted +/- ),
Ramsay (8 straight 20+ goal campaigns, 8 straight 50+ points, 787 consecutive games played, 0 PIM in 1973-74),
and Carbonneau (HOF -- just, "why"?).
Ramsay was not just on par with anyone else defensively, he was better by miles.
Look again at his +/- totals, noting also that he played 90 to 240 fewer games than
the other two.

Agreed, Tkaczuk was criminally underrated. The team you're on means so much. 1975-79 Canadiens were indeed
probably the greatest team(s) ever, but c'mon, not every guy on those clubs rates as a Hall of Famer.

“But Chris Nilan scored 20 goals one year skating with Guy Carbonneau!!!” - every Habs fan ever.

Then we can postulate
 

Goring AND Ramsay were definitely better than Carbonneau. Rank these players:

Gainey
Goring
Carbonneau
Ramsay

Who are you picking first?

Ramsey
Goring
Gainey
Carbonneau

Lindros

I disagree. He was a force out there and averaged 1.23 points per game, or 1.36 with Philly, and only behind Jagr at the time. The only thing missing from his resume is a Stanley Cup but considering how he was a complete player, who had a target on his back who always had to fight but still managed 865 points in 760 games, I think he is more than worthy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-oKfMuqLf0

Nice thread
 

Just a couple of quick corrections:

Actually Butch Goring did it in 1980-81. I am not certain if anyone has done it since.

It was Viktor Tikhonov and his quote was that Gainey was the best player in the world in the technical skills of the game.


There were three dynasties in the 70's and 80's - the Canadians, the Islanders and the Oilers. The Habs have 8 Hall of Famers, the Islanders 5 and the Oilers 7. That seems about right to me, although I think you could argue the Islanders deserve more.

The Habs had Dryden, Lapointe, Savard, Robinson, Lemaire, Shutt, Lafleur and Gainey. Not certain how any of them are not HOFers plus the fact that Lapointe, Savard and Lemaire were elite players before the 4 Cups in a row.

The Islanders had Smith, Potvin, Trottier, Bossy, Gillies. The only other two who might merit consideration would be Ken Morrow and Butch Goring.

The Oilers had Fuhr, Coffey, Lowe, Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and Anderson for 7. Seems about right to me.

Good point about Craig Ramsey. My family had season tickets to the Sabres in the 1970's and while I was not a Sabres fan I enjoyed watching Ramsey and Luce on the ice. I have never thought of him as a Hall of Famer but I never saw Carbonneau as one either.

Joe Nieuwendyk. Another compiler that never led in any category. Gillies and Anderson greatly benefitted from their surrounding talent. They're questionable at best.

I wouldn't have put any of these guys in:

Guy Lapointe
Bill Barber
Steve Shutt
Clark Gillies
Guy Carbonneau
Cam Neely

On the fence about Vaclav Nedomansky.

French Connection was all about flash. They would rack up points against the lesser teams. Rammer Luce and Gare went up against opponents top line and never saw any power play time. Ramsay was a plus player every season he was in the league which was amazing considering his defensive responsibilities. He won the Selke his final season. Not bad for a man who could barely walk due to chronic back problems.

The highlight of Tkaczuk's career was the 1972 Cup finals. He dominated Phil Esposito. Kept him goalless for the entire series which was a major accomplishment. Tkaczuk would have won his Cup had Jean Ratelle not suffered a fractured ankle.

Tkaczuk's play declined (along with the ranger team as a whole) starting in 74-75. He was the subject of trade rumors but he had a hefty salary that couldn't be moved. His career was revived in the late 1970's and had several more solid seasons.

Canadiens of the 1970's are like Lombardi's Green Bay Packers. Just put the time in and you will eventually get into the Hall of Fame.

I don't really follow who gets inducted into the various sports Hall of Fame anymore. The Hall should be reserved for individuals who make outstanding contributions to their sport either as a player or a builder and if 10 years go by before adding new members so be it. Too much bloat.

Should Guy Carbonneau be in the same shrine as Bobby Orr?

Maybe add different tiers - Orr would be in the Platinum Tier, Carbonneau the aluminium tier

Clark Gillies
 

He was the baddest man in the league; despite being the best fighter in the league (despite his Behn Wilson record), he never accrued over 100 PIM in any season. He had three 30+ goal seasons prior to Bossy's arrival.

He was the best power forward in the league from 76-83. Created space for that line. To boot, he basically ended Dave Schultz run as "most feared man in league".

As mentioned above, if the likes of Carbonneau and Federko (who I really, really liked) are in, Gillies goes in ahead of both of them.

I watched Morrow's entire career from 301 and 205 at the Coliseum, I never considered him an HoF guy, but it is a nice sentiment. Goring, I think people forget his time in Los Angeles. Sort of forgotten out there for 10 prime years.

Honestly, the player that I am surprised there isn't more of a groundswell of support is the "original" JT: John Tonelli. Interestingly enough, I've run into him several times under random circumstances over there years. First time, he and I were shooting pool at an empty bar in Midtown in the mid 90s. I drunkenly got him to call my dad from a payphone in the middle of the night to say hi. To this day, my father has no recollection of this event. I ran into him at Tiffany and Company in Manhasset in the early 2000s. I brought up the phone call and we BS'd a bit. Then, I ran into at the ground breaking for Belmont. He had just finished up his meet and greet and I bumped into him with my two little kids. As he left, I said, "John, you were 7 points away from 1000 for your career!" and he cut me off and said, "My son tells me this all the time...." and then proceeded to tell me he should have hung around for those 7 points.

He was an extremely important part of that Isles team. I wonder if the Flames won in 86 or if he was on that 89 team if he would have gotten some more consideration. He's another formidable player. As Gillies was the toughest player in the league for the better part of late 70s and 80s, Tonelli was the best corner man in the league for over a decade. It is easy to talk to former Isles here on the Island, but I'd really like to talk to Flames, Kings and Aeros fans. He's closer than you'd think, too.

No offense, but there's a lot of reminiscing and "homer" justification with many of these arguments. Sure, the names in question were extremely valuable to their teams and contributed to their success. Counting numbers are generally the key for most players, unless they're strongly disliked by the hockey writers.
Honestly, I could probably have put 60 points up each year if I found myself on the top six of those Isles, Habs, or Oilers teams.

I agree with the statement about having Orr in the same space as Gillies. But every other sport has the same challenge. Their Halls of Fame have a fair number of Hall of Very Goods in them.

Hall of Fame
 

The Hockey Hall of Fame is likely the most random of all of the Hall of Fames. All sorts of different variables.

Fair enough. US team 1980. Best defensive defensemen on a 4 time Cup Champion. Probably not enough to warrant Hall of Fame selection. It just seems the Islanders get shafted a lot in discussions.

The one big difference and why I think the Habs are deserving of all of their Hall of Famers (and I am a Bruins fan) is that the Canadiens were dominant in the regular season and the play-offs. The Islanders moreso in the play-offs.
The Canadiens lead the league in goals for and goals against. They are deserving of all of the accolades they get.

I always used to wonder when the Oilers would have 7 or 8 all-stars every year. Fuhr was the best goalie in the league, Gregg and Lowe elite defensive defensemen yet the Oilers always led the league in goals scored but despite having an elite goaltender and awesome defensemen they were never good in goals allowed. The Canadiens on the other hand had the best goalie, the best defense, and the best forwards and it shows in the statistics.

Reached out to Larry Brooks (NY Post) and Howie Rose (WFAN) and both said a strong “no” to Walt Tkaczuk. As for Tonelli, they both agreed “Hall of Very Good” and Brooks went on to state Goring obviously better than Carbonneau but brought up Brent Sutter as a player worth considering.

The comparison was should Orr be in the same Hall as Carbonneau, not Orr / Gillies. Gillies, when compared to others that are in, measures up nicely.

Brooks was a firm no on Ramsay, too.

Was Coffey that great defensively? Gregg, yes, Lowe, one of my favs, but Coffey wasn’t Potvin defensively.

As for being a Bruins fan, you had to listen to that idiot Milbury name names and call out Stan Jonathan for the “too many men on the ice” penalty. No other player on that team said a word about Jonathan. No one mentioned his name I. The press. But that a.h. Milbury? What a POS.

But I digress.

Coffey
 

Coffey was an amazing skater and offensive talent. His defense was generally regarded as below average. However, people like to find weaknesses in someone so prolific offensively. Coffey gained a lot of publicity for his one defensive play in the 1984 Canada Cup when he broke up a Soviet 2 on 1 that led to a winning goal.

Really? I never heard him say that. Never would have guessed Jonathan but it does make some sense in that he was a left winger and Marcotte stayed out through two or three shifts at left wing. Doesn't really matter who it was, ultimately the coach has to have responsibility.

Its too bad there isn't a spot for great defensive blueliners in the Hall.

Joe Reekie -HoF!

Yeah, some of the comments are hilarious.
The bias people have for teams and players they like definitely clouds logic and even basic common sense.
And no manager that has ever lived would select Goring over Gainey.... Never.

What's next? Huddy over Coffey??

** I should add that I think Goring was an excellent player who greatly contributed to the
Islanders and is well deserving of praise. I just think Gainey is a better player.
His selection as one of the NHL's 100 Greatest I believe supports that.

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/the-t...hrowback-style
https://icehockey.fandom.com/wiki/Li...he_Hockey_News

I would put Goring's Helmet in the Hall of Fame. Maybe in an evolution of the Hockey Helmet exhibit.

Interesting, the conversation was Goring over Carbonneau, though. On my end at least.

It was you that asked the question.

Steve Shutt??

- selected 4th overall in 1972.
- scored over 800 points in 930 regular-season games.
- first left winger to score 60 goals in a season, and third highest season total for any left winger in history - even Bobby Hull never secured 60 goals in an NHL season.
- 15th all-time for career goals scored by a left winger.
- three-time All-Star with five Stanley Cup championships.

Additionally, he was noted for an exceptionally accurate and HARD shot. Don Cherry once said that "Gerry Cheevers was actually in terror of this guy".

Billy Smith went further, stating "He had a great shot. Unbelievable shot. He’d come across the blue line and he could tee it up better than anybody. And he was accurate, which is scary for someone with a slap shot"

Noted hockey author and historian Brian McFarlane also mentioned that Shutt had the fastest set of hands around the net during his time in the NHL, with an ability to corral the puck with his skates as well as protect it with his body and stick. (taken from online)

Bottom line, there are only six positions, and regarding offensive output, Shutt is ranked 15th for his position all-time. Do the math.... that would mean he ranks comparatively with the top 90 players or so that have ever played the game.

I had to check if these were actually HOFers. Definitely remove Barber, Gillies & Lapointe. Only reason any of them are there is because they played on good teams.

I feel that there is more to hockey than just points.

Clark Gillies was a force for the Islanders championship teams and his presence was ALWAYS felt when he was on the ice.

Makes me wonder what a healthy Cam Neely would have done on that Islanders team. His stats over the 10 years he played were good (3x50 goal seasons). But, Vancouver and Boston weren't nearly the powerhouse the Islanders or Oilers were.

Bruins were a powerhouse when Neely was there.

89-90 and 92-93 seasons were impressive. But I don't think you could compare the Bruins to the Islanders or Oilers talent-wise. He had Bourque and Oates for a few years. But the lineups lacked the same consistency, in addition to Cups.

Neely
 

Neely was in a pretty good situation for him. He had Craig Janney and than Adam Oates as his extremely pass first centers. He had Bourque on the Power Play and he got a lot of ice time. Yes, the Bruins lacked the depth of the Islanders and Oilers championship teams but they were still an elite team. Neely had to go against the top defensive lines and defensemen on the other teams all the time which is really the only drawback.

Hof
 

Interesting choices to leave out.

Lapointe certainly seems like a lock. 6 Stanley Cups. 4 times a first or second team all-star. Six times in the top 5 in Norris Trophy voting. 3 time 20 goal scorer. Plus, he was on both the 1972 Team Canada and the greatest team ever assembled the 1976 Team Canada. In both those tournaments he was a full time player and contributor. The Canadiens of his era were likely the greatest team of all-time so not surprising they would have 3 defensemen in the Hall of Fame. They had the best offense and the best defense almost every year.

I can see the idea that Barber is not a Hall of Famer. However, he was the third best player on the Flyers of the 70's. A team that played in 3 Stanley Cup Finals and other than him is only represented by Parent and Clarke in the Hall of Fame. He also played in both the 1976 Canada Cup and the 1979 Challenge Series. I can see his selection.

I also see Shutt as a lock. Great pure goal scorer and a member of 1976 team Canada and 1979 Challenge Cup. Top left wing and power play guy on the best team ever.

Gillies is in for his intangibles. I can't argue the value of that other than the Islanders have 5 Hall of Fame players from the 4 X Champs and to me that seems a little low. I will say that Gillies standing up to Boston and Philadelphia in the first Cup run, while not being enough to warrant Hall of Fame consideration, at least speaks to his intangibles. For the first time, the Islanders were not seen as pushovers. Gillies and Terry O'Reilly had a few memorable battles in the quarter-finals.

Carbonneau's induction seems to me a case of we need more defensive minded players in the Hall of Fame and he fits that criteria. Excellent face-off man, 3 times Selke trophy winner and 9 time top five finisher in that category. Plus three time Stanley Cup Champion.

Neely was considered the perfect "power forward" of which all future players would be measured against. Yes, his career is short and that certainly can be held against him. His 50 goals in 44 games in 1993-94 is likely the best goal scoring season ever. He scored his 50 in a time when goals were much harder to come by than in other environments. And Patrick Roy saying that Neely definitely owned him helps his cause, especially in the world of quotes and perceptions.

The Bruins of the early 90s were a contender. But, the Penguins roster was more comparable to the Islanders or Oilers. They certainly didn't have the sustained success. But the roster was equally impressive.

I remember Cam Neely's 50 in 50 and the NHL not recognizing it since it was not the teams first 50 games.

I'm with you on this on! I know he had a few solid seasons, but he was built up to be one of the all time greats.

Refusing to play for Quebec really turned me off too. Always had the attitude that he was an elite player before he played many games.

Even his best seasons weren't elite when compared to other guys his size in the 90's. I never thought he would get in to the HOF!

His refusal to play for Quebec was based on the owner, Marcel Abut, not the team itself. He said if Marcel Abut was the owner of the Leaf's, he would have refused to play for them as well. As you will see, once the people found out how much of scum bag Marcel was, they welcomed Lindros back with open arms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm1b3_u4c9U

Marcel Abut's charges. Lindros knew about him and his behavior but of course the media didn't mention anything about it because they love a story.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...orced%20kisses.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...peaks-out.html
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ticle28179183/
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/2...ives-1.3409544

The NHL so badly wanted Lindros to be "The Next One". He was a monster for Oshawa in the OHL and coming up at a time when there was a deep pool of talent coming from eastern Europe. Remember, this was right after the Iron Curtain fell and there was still a lot of uncertainty and distaste for former USSR countries. The early 90's saw the likes of Jaromir Jagr, Sergei Fedorov, Pavel Bure, Niklas Lidstrom, and Alexander Mogilny come to their own. Lindros had all of the raw tools and tremendous size to change the game and draw in new fans. But, the concussions, many as a result of immaturity, steered his path a different direction.

For the record, I can't stand Lindros. But he was quite a force when paired up with LeClair.