Fraud in the hobby
 

A serious question I think about many times reading the board.

If you are one of those people who looks at the hobby and sees fraud at every turn, and chastises others for looking the other way and not caring as much as you think they should, why are YOU still in the hobby? If the negativity is that pervasive and has ruined everything, wouldn't it make sense to find another hobby that makes you a happier person?

I know we are live with this fraud thing hanging over the hobby to some degree. But if it the joy is gone for you, why stick around? Fraud is pervasive in the art world and all over the place. If just a source of great angst, why torture yourself?

Just because you hate fraud in a hobby that you love doesn’t mean you can’t still find some joy and excitement. It usually just requires a slight shift in focus.

I stick around because I love the hobby and it was my passion long before i realized how pervasive the fraud in the hobby really is. All that said, fraud has been happening longer than I have been collecting.

I don't collect anymore, but do follow the items and hobby. So I observe the hobby issues from afar. Mostly, I sold off all my stuff, and never really gotten around to collecting again. Maybe someday.

I never submitted a card to a grader, and owned a total of perhaps five graded cards in my entire life. I never had an interest in high-grade items anyway. Though I also dealt with autographs and game-used that came with LOAs and their own set of issues.

whenever there is a chance to make "easy money" fraud rears its ugly head.

I think it's natural for you to want something you enjoy to be enjoyable and to get upset when outsiders are making it impossible to enjoy whatever it is. It would make me even more upset if someone told me I should just stop enjoying something I like. I don't agree with that philosophy.

It's kind of like when someone says "if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?" I always think the same thing when I hear that. Why can't it be nice here instead?

Other hobbies like photography, gardening, playing sports, etc,... are more about techniques and skill rather than money. There are some expenses to them of course, but not to the degree of sports cards and memorabilia. Our hobby we all love has fraud, of course. If you're a low end collector like myself, you have to find other aspects of this hobby that give you happiness and enjoyment.

I think, for some people that the drama of exposing fraud and subsequent finger pointing have become part of their hobby. You can get attention online (if your not blocked or ignored) and praise for "being the one to expose", even if its only the same 5-6 people who cheer you on every time. There's probably even a little feel good from virtue signaling to others because they are part of the problem for persisting on with collecting. It might say more about ones personal life to be this way if it does become their main connection to the hobby. Just my opinion.

Speaking for myself and more importantly the guys I know on Blowout, to the extent you may be talking about us, that's an absolute crock of psychobabble. Nobody craves any drama or attention. It's done from a sincere desire to contribute as best we can to informing people and maybe, just maybe, helping in some small way to keep a lid on it.

As to my friend Steve's original question, the answer is pretty simple. If you love something, you don't let fraudsters drive you away from it, you adapt. Do people abandon their families when they become a source of angst? Mostly not.

Dishonesty in any industry is always damaging, from Joe six-pack all the way up to the Elite collector, but is really damaging to the people in the hobby who conduct themselves with integrity and honesty. They get painted with the broad brush of Fraud along with the scumbags. The collector trust is broken on a large scale and turns into a guilty until proven innocent dynamic. I'd love to see how fast this industry sobers up if you sent a couple of folks to jail for even a couple of years, or if some company had to pay a large settlement in a class action lawsuit. Ruin the lives of a few shady characters in the hobby and they'll run to the darkness like the cockroaches they are. Will it happen? probably not, but count me in for bringing the popcorn if it does, so honest folk can enjoy watching them squirm while they role over on each other.

Personally, I applaud the efforts of Peter & the guys over at Blowout. Doing the Lord's work IMO.

Hi steve fraud will never end ,,art ,stocks ,cards ,sneakers,its been going in for 100s of years ,,never will it end ,,

Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

"Fraud in the Hobby"

Redundant many the time.

There is fraud in many of my hobbies - cards, vintage autos and vintage toys like Star Wars and GI Joe. Like someone said when big money gets involved it just happens. There is always someone just out to make a few bucks at the expense of others. I've always shrugged it off and made sure I am as educated as I can be when purchasing items, particularly big ticket items. It is just a part of life and you can constantly complain or work hard to make sure you know what you are doing by reading and staying connected to online communities like this one that constantly educate and make folks aware of shysters.

The only way to move an elephant is to keep pushing, keep throwing them into jail, throw their wives and kids into jail too on conspiracy charges, they wont stick but if you've ever spent a night in jail you tend to reflect on your life a bit. Make it so painful to be dishonest that they'll think twice next time.

Yeah, I'm not sure broadly speaking how much people who commit crimes are ever deterred by punishment to others. I think it may be inherent in the fraudster's character to think he is smarter and will get away with it.

Parenthetically, for me anyhow, talking to people with no apparent ethics (as I have in this hobby) can be downright disturbing. But it does give you insight into their character and conduct.

I believe the card doctors get a thrill over coning people.....this will never stop.

Bottom line: most of the people I meet are good folks who enjoy similar interests and are fun to socialize with, and I still enjoy my collection. When that is not the case, I will walk away. Until then, I just try to steer clear of the worst aspects and worst asshats in the hobby.

What's really galling is how some will con people who consider them friends. But this is the way of the criminal I suppose.

Agree ! It’s so slime ball ! I believe what goes around comes around, being honest and fair with people has always suited me well.

It could be argued that the more you dislike and oppose fraud in the hobby, the more you love the hobby and want to protect it.

If you did not love the hobby or were apathetic to the molestation of cards for huge profits, then the fraud would probably not make your radar screen.

The people profiting from (and authenticating) fraud love the monetary aspect of the hobby. Those opposing fraud and corrupt practices love the hobby for what it is.

And when you love something, you do not stand by silently to watch it fall apart.

Bitching about fraudulent practices that impact your hobby shouldn't mean you have to leave it. What sense does that make? Those who expose it are doing a service to the hobby.

There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

I agree. Just watched the documentary on WeWorks.

Guy was charged with an incredible fraud and walked away with a severance of $1.8 billion.

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

Since I am back to the hobby in 2010, there has been fraud in the hobby. Whether it's shill bidding, counterfeits, etc, it's been everywhere. I think it's still really important to know what's going on and trying to educate yourself as much as possible, so that you can make the best decisions on what to buy and whether what you are buying is the item that you are expecting it to be. You can still enjoy the hobby with all that going. Frankly for me, I'm more discouraged by the crazy prices going on than the fraud. The fraud I can try to avoid, but the prices is more difficult. It's like when I was a kid when I couldn't afford a lot of stuff that I wanted to buy.

I dont know, we have all been worried about fraud since I started collecting 37 years ago. But the hobby has changed so much since then, its hard to compare times. I would bring up the possibility that TPGs have just increased fraud and not limited it in any way. And today is the same as 37 years ago, if you dont enjoy collecting whatever your focus is anymore you find something else...but eventually you rn out of things to shift to.

But TPGs have given a a false sense of security to collectors. People do not spend the time holding the cards and browsing thru them like we used to when shows were every weekend. You always bought beaters to educate yourself with, dip that toe into the water before taking the plunge. But these steps are skipped now with all the holders, same holders that prevent a "collector" from feeling a card, its thickness, texture and even smell. Now people drops 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars within months of entering.

The best way to defend yourself is still educating yourself. Blindly trusting a TPG with this much money just seems odd to me. And no, they arent the best at grading and detecting worked cards. People that have sat at home with their loupes, scan a card at 1200 dpi, handled 100s of the issue are just as good if not better. I handled 2-3000 CJs thru the years, I dont need a TPG to tell me what to look for.

But if the worry of fraud becomes to much then its just time to go and that sucks...but we should still be educating ourselves. If you dont know reach out to a member, super easy way to make a hobby buddy and very rarely has that person not responded to me. Its just part of it, a fun part of IMO.

You said it for me. My exact thoughts. Reminds me of the late eighties and early nineties with all the easy money. Many of these guys are more sophisticated in their schemes. You have to have your guard up at all times.

I kind of understand where the heart of this question comes from....
If all of this place we share and talk about the hobby is 'stunk' with talk of fraud and wrongdoing, much of the pleasure is stolen.

The question is, does the endless dissecting of the problems do anything other than share misery and reduce joy in what should be a fun/pleasant distraction from Life's more serious requirements?

If the hobby set up a 'complaints corner', with a couple true expert and motivated hobby cops versed in law and available to give free of their time to the pursuit, where discovery of fraud was brought and was left in the hands of those same to execute whatever was really feasible, perhaps we could then shift more focus to the cards and what they mean to us??

I mean, what gets talked about here doesn't really do anything, right?
For real action, the knowledge needs to be acted upon.
Here it's really just kvetching.

I can understand why the OP and others might get tired of it, and why it's a downer to their hobby time. It's not because they don't know of the serious issues, or don't want to know, but because of the 'end of the earth' laments that trail each posting and thread on the topic.
And also because the idea of extending further questioning of ALL cards and condition regardless of accuracy of thought, so that only those precious few who think their sanctified collecting of lower grade cards can be true and honest, is plain tiresome.
For all the messed with nice condition cards, I as a hobbyist am sure there are innumerable 'right' cards that are beautiful and high end simply because they were put away at the time of collecting.

And yet now ALL these nice cards I"m being told are fake nice.
The leap from wrongdoing on one level to wrongdoing everywhere is just debilitating to any real joy in collecting, much as the OP is wondering.

I collect in a way to avoid the fraud, drama, and garbage that comes with any hobby in which peoples financial stakes are such that ethics are easily shoved aside. The prevalent fraud is more annoying than personally affecting. In 20 years I've yet to be scammed. I'm sure it will happen one day.

I buy low grade. There's not a graded card or sharp corner in sight. Heck, there's not even a plastic sleeve in sight at all most of the time.

I don't buy mega expensive cards that if it turns out it's altered and suddenly worthless, I just lost the downpayment on a house. Every penny spent is treated as money lost, beer money without the liver damage.

I focus on rarities, cards and master sets I like that scammers are generally not targeting, or for which the scams are blatantly obvious. I have as much fun outside of Baseball as in it.

I trade with fellow collectors who think alike and am friends with outside the cards alone whenever possible. Swapping $10 of cards back and forth whenever we can help each other isn't liable to produce fraud.

I operate with the philosophy that if it doesn't make sense, don't buy it. Cards from 1910 shouldn't be NM-MT condition. Legitimate signed cards of players who died before autographed card collecting was popular exist in tiny, tiny numbers. For every card undersized and unaltered there should be a roughly equal number of oversized ones.

I have a great time researching my tobacco sets, putting together the mysteries and unknowns, check listing master sets, the minutia that altering doesn't affect and doesn't even cost a cent.

No one is altering fair grade T42's, making copies of T220's, trimming 1971 Topps cards in Good with a crease. And if they are, since I don't care about condition and just enjoy the images and building sets, it doesn't really matter to me. If it turns out my t206 common with 18 creases was trimmed, oh well. I hate the fraud, but I have a grand time with the hobby. I'm not going to make money, but I have a good time and good friends in the hobby. that's enough. If you avoid the areas of the hobby that are dominated by scammers and for which it can be reasonably expected that that will be prevalent (which would you focus on if you were an unethical scammer, $20,000 cards or $2 ones?), it's as much fun as it has ever been, in some ways better than ever.

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. :D:D:D:D I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!:)

What he said.

I would also suggest that members here make a concerted effort to post interesting collecting stories that have nothing to do with the "business", after all, it is required as per Leon's rules of the sub if anybody bothered to read them.

We all make those posts in other threads, this thread is specifically talking about the "business". If you were looking for interesting stories, and based on your post it sounds like you are, you should have taken the title of this thread as a pretty clear hint that there weren't going to be any here, and clicked on a different thread.

Here's an interesting card for you, which has plenty of interesting stories attached to it, and most of them are about "fraud in the hobby".

Doug

This thread is talking about losing the joy of the hobby because of the "business" of the hobby. While the business is an important aspect of the hobby I would posit that one less divisive thread about politics and one more thread about acquiring that card or finishing that set and the journey along the way would reinforce the joy of the hobby for collectors here.

fraud
 

what about the collector who " accidently " gets caught up in fraud ...

ex- the guy ( guys) who was fooled by these mighty grading services that " didnt do their job " and bought one of these high dollar vintage cards that was doctored ...paid thousands for a card that was later deemed trimmed ..but PSA slabbed it as - EX MT 7.

This guy now knows the card is bad

Maybe it sits in his collection for a while

sooner or later he will sell it ..maybe he breaks it out and try's to get it graded again.... maybe breaks it out and " plays dumb" and sells it raw....

bottom line is he knows the card is bad...but he wants to recoup his money

With all the cards that have been uncovered as doctored in the past...I believe this scenario will happen ( or has happened) many times

The problem is the cards altered or not are worth just as much if not more if they're in a holder. Sending it to a major auction house seems to work.

It happens every single day.

From what I have seen it goes something like this.

1) Sell it and don't worry because that slab says it is a PSA 7 so it is a PSA 7.
2) Sell it and don't say anything because as the seller getting your cash back is #1.
3) Sell with full disclosure knowing no one will care anyway because the flip rules.
4) Send to PSA to get the grade confirmed. Then sell in the same slab because PSA confirmed their opinion.
5) Eat the loss, LOL I know it likely will never happen but someday it might.:D
6) PSA honors its guarantee.

I've had cards graded in the past, not many, but some of my nicer/better ones. Mostly because someday my kids or wife will probably sell them, and assuming the grading still gets respect, they'll do much better.
SGC only for ones I sent in. But I've also bought a handful of cards from other companies.

I saw some stuff a few years ago that made me really not want to continue send in cards in and support companies I didn't think were honest.

But recently, there's some stuff I'm considering selling, and the price difference is big enough to make a real difference to me. So maybe?
It's still hard, or I'd have already done it.

I have pretty much moved away from the grading aspect.

That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

Right after I commissioned, I went out to lunch at the O-Club with a CDR and a retired CAPT who are both family friends. When the bill came, the three of us took out our cards. The other two pushed mine out of the way, and the Captain looked at me and asked "Do you know how many times I touched the bill as an Ensign? Never.", and the Commander nodded in agreement.

On the subject of fraud:

I try to not allow it to affect my enjoyment or the connections I have made with other collectors. While they're have certainly been times where I have been effected by it, at the end of the day the good in my opinion outweighs the bad. I love talking cardboard with people that are truly interested in the hobby. While it is a little unfortunate that in recent times the business aspect has been getting more coverage, it just is what it is. The people that are strictly in this for the money will come and go while the people that collect and trade for enjoyment will stay.

As things get more popular, and valuable, the chances of fraud always increase. Art, photography, etc have been things brought up by previous posters. It's why I try to be as diligent as possible when buying cards, doing my research, posting here, or purchasing from sellers I explicitly trust.

I've only thankfully had one negative experience with fraud, and it wasn't even mine directly. I recieved a Jordan Rookie, years back from my father, I don't know how much he paid for it, but it was holdered by SGC. Turns out after some research and posting on here, the card ended up being fake. The original slab was cracked, a fake was inserted and then the slab was resealed. It's unfortunate, because it was a gift, and I could never bring myself to tell my father, something he spent his hard earned money on, for me, turned out being something that wasn't real, because he was fooled by some shady conman. Despite the card being fake, the emotion is still there, so are the memories of the gift itself. Those are genuine and real, so I take a little bit of solace in that.

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Does anyone really think the card doctors/fraudsters could, yet alone be charged but be found guilty by a jury of their peers ?

.

Pier review

For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

Paul Simon, "Still Crazy After All These Yiers"?

Sitting on the pier of the bay

Since we are in "spell check mode" it's actually Mastro, as opposed to the guy pictured below...

But agree with your point. John Rogers was also more recently featured on American Greed. Next year's episode should be quite interesting, with far too many potential candidates to speculate who'll be the "star". The frontrunners are Moser, Huigens and Orlando. But Forman, Heritage and the Phantom Cracker Jack Butcher might be primed for a late run.

Stay tuned!