BST transaction gone very bad with "lost" check
 

I've been delaying posting anything here, since I'd been holding out hope my issue would be easily resolved through my bank's fraud claims department, and with cooperation from the board seller. I also don't really like drama. As is, the seller has gone completely silent over the past 2-3 weeks, ignoring both my emails and direct correspondence from my bank. For now, I am choosing not to out this seller, however if I see he posts anything new for sale, that will probably change.

Here's a quick summary.
Oct 2013- I bought an item from him off BST. Seller requests check or MO. I mail check.
Nov 2013- seller says check has not arrived. Rather than send another check, I pay via Paypal and ask that he void/destroy the check if it arrives.
Nov 2013- I receive the item
Dec 2014- 14 months after the "lost check" is written, it is cashed or deposited.

Immediately after discovering this transaction has gone through, I contacted my bank and the seller. He responded 4-5 times to my initial email, claiming not to have known anything about the check, claiming to be totally trustworthy... however saying he was not at all surprised this had happened, saying his actual sig would not look like the one on the back of the check (no one had even told him the check had been endorsed), and that it was completely my responsibility for not "cancelling" the check.

His responses were strange to me, especially his not being surprised. I know if I had sold a large dollar item, I'd very surprised and worried that someone had ended up with my mail and cashed a check in my name over a year later. Being innocent, I'd go out of my way to cooperate. I was also annoyed by his pushing any/all responsibility on to me, since he'd requested payment by check and since my bank Wells Fargo doesn't really allow me to cancel checks. You pay $32 for a 6 month renewable hold, but it does not actually cancel the check. I've also since learned (and was surprised) checks do not technically expire over time. Some banks may choose not to accept checks that are 6 months old as being "stale", however it seems many, if not most will accept years old checks indefinitely. In this case, Citizen's Bank happily accepted a 14 month old check without question. After the 6 month, $32 hold expires, you owe another $32 if you want the hold to continue for 6 more months, and this can go on forever. It would have cost $96 to protect myself for the 14 months. Knowing what I know now, I will probably never again consider a seller (BST or AH) that requests a check in lieu of an instant Paypal, Wire or CC payment.

My honest, initial reaction to all this was that it seemed far far more likely that the payee/seller was involved, since he has access to his own bank cards, IDs, account numbers... whereas if a random person had received this check, they'd likely need to falsify and/or steal all that info. That said, I tried to consider the possibility he was not involved, and if he were to have shown good communication/cooperation, it would have probably made me give him benefit of the doubt.

Since those initial 4-5 emails however, I think he's responded to 1 or 2 of my 10+ emails and been silent for nearly 3 weeks. With that, I've become fairly certain he's involved given how uncooperative and plain shady he's been--- ex: I sent him an affidavit for check fraud that he needed to sign and mail in. I sent the form with a pre-addressed and stamped evenlope so it would be easy, but he told me his lawyer and a Wells banker had told him this form should never have been sent to him, and that the bank took it from him and "destroyed" it! WTF?!?!?:eek: My bank's fraud investigator said a branch teller should have never said or done anything like this and asked me to get the branch's location from him. He did not respond to that question, nor has he responded since. This was 3 weeks ago. My bank has since sent him the same form directly, but as far as I can tell he's ignoring the process.

I don't want to get into much more detail, including steps I'm currently and will be taking, as this process is ongoing... however I want to get others' feedback, mainly- would you think the seller is likely involved... and has anyone experienced a similar form of theft and/or fraud, if so, how did it turn out? I don't want to broadcast too much to this guy, so if there are any specific tactics you think I should take, etc, feel free to email me directly at itjclarke@yahoo.com

In posting, I would also like to compel this seller to do what he should be doing here and actually respond and do what the bank is asking. His silence is definitely not the way to earn benefit of the doubt IMO.

Sorry to hear of your problem Ian, hope it works out for you. Please don't take it out on all us payment Through The Mail people. I have made over 100 transactions on Net54 by check/cash with 0 problems.

Man that stinks Ian. I do wish I had something helpful for you. Good luck and I hope this gets worked out for you soon.

Ian,

Sorry to hear about the check situation, but two questions:

1. I am not meaning to offend you, but why didn't you put a stop payment on the initial check?

2. 14 months after the fact, the check was cashed? Most banks, if I am not mistaken, will not cash a check after 180 days following the date on the check.

Both of the questions were answered in the initial post:

Sorry to hear about your problem. Don't beat yourself up - you did nothing wrong.

I disgaree with not outing the seller, as it beneifts those of us who buy quite a bit on the B/S/T. However, that is your decision and I resepct it.

I hope it works out for you. Good luck!

Sorry this happened to you. I did not know that detail about banks not actually cancelling checks and extorting the process for perpetuity. That seems downright illegal, but then again the banks & CC companies have pretty much been given a blank check (pun intended), to do whatever the hell they want to do in the last 20 years or so.

Ian, you know my thoughts on this, but posting to show my support.

As far as outing the guy, I wouldn't normally recommend it as it just leads to a lot of drama, but your bases are covered and this is a significant issue - possibly the worst I've seen on an internet forum transaction. I don't think he realizes how well-respected you are, and that you are one of the least-likely people to start a thread like this, meaning it's a big deal and thread-worthy by anyone's standards.

Personally, at this point I would fry him alive.

This seems like a great way to use my 500th post.

+1

My apologies. I was just skimming the article. Leave it to a bank to come up with a renewable charge to stop a check.

For the record I have been involved in this and the seller went silent on me too, however, I didn't push it because I know Ian is working on some stuff. I am helping Ian as much as I can but there isn't a ton I can do. It seems to me if this was a legit "I really didn't cash it" then the seller would not only be helping when asked, but would be very PROACTIVE, since he is being held accountable for something someone else allegedly did.

Do you know the branch that the check was cashed/deposit in? If so, I would call them and tell them that the check had been fraudulently cashed and ask them to pull the camera tapes. If these tapes are still available, this will disclose who did this. Also, report this fraud to your bank. They will reimburse your funds if the check was in fact fraudulently cashed. If the seller really cashed it himself he will have more problems than the money he made was worth.

I have extensive work experience chasing financial fraudsters [NOT saying that there is fraud here, just providing a frame of reference for my suggestion]. The nice thing about checks is that they leave an auditable trail. Get a copy of the front and back of your cashed check. When you deposit a check the bank stamps it with information that can be reviewed to determine where it was deposited. If it went into an account that has nothing to do with the seller or originated from a place like a check cashing service that is not where the seller is located odds are the check was stolen and cashed by a third party and the seller really is innocent.

The law is stacked 100% in favor of the banks when it comes to checking accounts:

1. Banks do not have to dishonor a check you write just because you tell them it was stolen or lost. I just had to put one on a check at WFB [$31 for 6 months] but it is ineffective if the check is cashed anywhere other than at a branch of your bank. If the check is presented for deposit and sent to your bank while a hold is in effect it will be rejected, but that's the end of the protection.

2. Banks are not liable for not catching a stale check--or any other SNAFU or breach of their own account rules--if they have 'reasonable' methods in place to administer the account and one happens to slip through. That is in the Uniform Commercial Code, which has been adopted in nearly every state in some form. And you thought Little League was the last time in life you get a trophy for trying...

3. If the bank sends you a statement every month you may have as little as 30 days to catch even the most egregious fraud/bank error or the bank may not have liability for your losses. A client of mine recently caught an ex-employee embezzling funds over nearly three years by using a fraudulent transfer instruction and the bank was liable for just the prior month's unauthorized transaction.

I don't post often and I may be wrong but why bring this up without alerting us who the seller is. I buy things on the B/S/T and would be pissed off if this happened to me when I could have been warned about this person prior.
Just my opinion.
CN

check
 

This is ridiculous. 14 months later and it is cashed?..If I am the buyer I post everything and let the seller defend himself. If he didn't do it the fraud department will reimburse immediately and investigate from there.....I have done lots of BST deals and this has never happened. This a fraternity of a group here and this can't happen. Post it and let's see how quickly it gets handled.

Great info Adam!

Very sorry to hear of this trouble Ian. Straight theft IMO, that's frustrating to read how little recourse a victim has in cases of bank/check fraud. Good advice all.

Thanks for the feedback all.. I'm in midst of a pretty busy week, so will add more comment(s) later. To the above question--- if I see he posts an item for sale, I'll out it/him. I have no idea what his usernames may be on eBay or elsewhere, so I probably can't warn anyone beyond potential BST sales.

I'd very much love for this guy to reach out and begin cooperating. If not, I'll go as far as I need to go to see this through.

I'm with Scott on this one. I don't have any knowledge beyond what you just wrote, but you're one of the most trustworthy people on here imo. If your gut instinct says this guy is responsible, he very likely is. I would probably hold off on naming names if you have any lawyers involved (or if you plan to have any involved). If not, or when the time is right, I do think he should be outed. This is awful. I hope you get it resolved favorably and in a timely manner.

Sorry to hear of all this Ian. I sincerely hope there is some quick resolution to this as you are truly one of the good guys.

Just to be different
 

What if it was an honest slip up

I had a check in my wallet for 60 days before I did a search and found the darn check in my wallet, In this case, the item was paid for by the collector and he owned said item. It was me who forgot for 60 days to deposit.

It happens, just a thought and you should see some of what occurs to checks were I work:

We get checks that are not signed, made out to the wrong payee, not made out to any payee, wrong amounts, etc. We even once had a check made out to 250 -- and why -- because the fee was $250 and they wrote that as the pay to the order of.

Things happen!

Rich

Ian,

This may be of little solace, but a similar thing happened at my company - We paid a vendor by check, vendor claimed he didn't receive it, we sent a second check and placed a bank hold on the first check. The second check was cashed immediately. 7 months later, the first check was cashed. This is how I discovered the 6 month limit on a bank hold, and the unwillingness of the banks to deal with it after that.

We are still working with our bank and the other bank to try and recover the funds. $11,000 outstanding.

Banksters.

But if that buyer emailed you and asked why you hadn't cashed his check, would you dodge?


Like all, I'm unbelievably curious as to who this is, but I agree with someone above me. If this was a typical "I had a crappy transaction with --" then I'd say publish his name, but this sounds like the authorities need to be involved, in which case I'd hold on to the name. (Until it's all cleared up, then you must post it!!)

Ken

To someone with no business banking experience, can you please explain why isn't this easily provable fraud??

I guess that banks have decided since they don't get a piece of the transaction on most checks, like they do on credit cards (and they are all in the credit card business now), outside of managing the account. They couldn't care less about whether they've passed a bad check, except to string you along for fees on a hold.

Since the check was mailed, could this be considered mail fraud?

I believe it could only be mail fraud if the check was intercepted before delivery and cashed by someone else. By the way, I am sorry if I missed this, but how much was the check made out for?

...

without naming the seller...I really take any complaining with a grain of salt...the seller could defend themselves....easy to just say what the seller did was bad and tell your side of the story if you know there is no chance there will be another version of the story.....by not naming the seller that assures you of that..

The OP gave enough info for those who really want to find out who the seller is.

This response is moronic, especially the last bit of your single sentence.

well there has been no response....not sure how its moronic if its true........easy to make accusations when no one there to defend them..... plus I said I would take what is said with a grain of salt....not so sure why you would have such a strong reaction to that..i didn't say didn't believe etc..

Okay, it took me 10 seconds to read your first response, deem it 'moronic' and type my response. I apologize for calling your comment 'moronic', as I know you aren't a moron, but this is a serious situation and worthy of a little bit more thought.

Ian has gotten screwed. He has described the situation in detail. The accused knows Ian's handle, as he made the deal here...duh....and how in the world would 'no response' indicate that the accused is '[not] here to defend them'?!? The accused has ignored both Ian AND Leon and now he is ignoring them again. Please - read the posts before jumping in half-cocked. This is a serious situation.

Ian, I am sorry to hear that you got screwed out of what sounds like it might be a significant amount of money. At least it seems that you received the item you paid twice for (and I hope this doesn't wreck that item for you).

I am curious about the last time that this person logged in to Net54 (you can see this by looking at their profile) - have you checked? Also, have you tried calling the seller? It seems like a lot of this has happened over email (Leon, do you have a phone number for all users?).

I know that I would like to know who this seller is so I am in favor of your outing them so that others can use extra caution in deals with them. However, I also understand your desire not to completely blow things up.

I have another possible suggestion that I will send you in a PM in case the seller is reading.

Good luck.

Thanks Scott, I couldn't have said it better. Jake, I don't really mind if you take it with a grain of salt or not, it's not gonna change how I approach this. Just curious, why do you think you need to know? Are you going to do anything to help? As said, if I see him selling ANYTHING else, I will post his username, so others will be warned. I don't want to start a needless witch hunt though, nor do I want this discussion to devolve. I'd prefer things stay civilized, and hope to get some good ideas/input. I've really appreciated feedback received so far.

He is not defenseless. As Scott says, if he sees this thread, he'll know it's about our bad deal, and would have a chance to speak up. I hope he does break his silence and posts here, since something would be better than nothing, right? I'm definitely not fully opposed to naming the seller (a handful of people I trust do know), I just don't see anything to gain by calling him out publicly here and now. I see he has not been logged on for 3 days, but I know he's on the board regularly. Given he's ignored my emails, I hope he eventually sees this thread and contacts me. From there, a very specific chain of events would need to take place, and a chain in which I believe beyond doubt he's not involved. This being said, I think it's unlikely to play out this way (everyone I've spoken with, including law enforcement believe he is involved), but there's still that 1% chance, right? If in the end, it's not totally clear he's not involved, I'll let everyone know who this is.


Adam, thanks for clearly summarizing. I've learned these things over the past 2 months+ and am appalled. I always thought Paypal gift/friends family was the riskiest way to go, but now knowing how many loose ends there are when writing a personal check, I'm re-assessing. At least Paypal doesn't allow the seller the ability to say "I didn't get it". I guess I could've sent the check with tracking, but frankly had never worried too much about checks... nor had I worried about longtime BST sellers. All my other dozens of BST transactions have gone without issue, and several times I've remained in contact with sellers just because they're nice guys.

That said, I guess it all boils down to trusting the seller. I wouldn't worry about Scott or Dan trying to screw me over a lost check. This incident doesn't affect trust earned by many of the sellers here, nor the AHs I've had great experiences with--- LOTG, B&L, Sterling, JVAC, to name a few.

Ben, sorry if I came across as taking it out on sellers. Honestly, I have become a little bitter towards banks and their loose/inconsistent policies, but I in no way think sellers who require checks/MO are trying to screw people. I do think most/many however are not fully aware of how non-secure personal checking can be.

Almost everyone I've talked to, including my wife and the police have told me with "near certainty" some variation on there being a fixed term of validity for old checks... all, with exception of a couple (posters here) have thought checks are no good after a certain period-- 90 days, 180 days, 12 months, etc ("after 14 months?? no that can't happen, it's no good after 6 mths", etc). Until this happened, I'd have thought the same as the others.

I'd never considered this topic worrisome until now. I'd guess I've got a half dozen "lost" checks out there over a 20+ year period. I don't remember any specifically, but any of them could come back to bite me.

Rich, I always appreciate an opposing POV, always better to understand multiple perspectives. I also sort of misspoke in my first post. My first impression was not that he'd done something bad. My first impression was that he had probably received the check sometime after I sent my paypal money, then lost it in a pile. He then found it a year later, forgetting what it was for (though I did write the player name on it) and happily deposited it at Christmas to help offset holiday spending. I emailed him, fully expecting he'd done this by mistake, though admittedly I did take an urgent tone because my rent was due in 4 days and this amount had sucked my checking account dry. After his first round of responses, I became highly suspicious though. There are other small details I didn't bother to mention that were also suspicious, and the stuff he claimed about a supposed bank teller confiscating the affidavit form was just ridiculous.

Ben, thanks for posting. I'd hoped a similar story would surface. I'll shoot you an email as I'm curious to know tactics your company is taking, and how things are playing out.

Jobu, he last logged onto the site on 2/9. I do have his phone number and called, as has my bank's investigator.

BTW- I think this would be hard for anyone to track down. I did not post at all in his sale thread, as communications were by PM and email only... so if you look back at my posting history it will probably lead you in the wrong direction, and to transactions done around the same time with Dan (Gobucsmagic), Brad Pencil, etc. Those were great transactions, and I don't want anyone forming conclusions about the wrong people. Again, if he posts an item for sale on BST, I'll give fair warning to any perspective buyers.

I am really sorry to read something like this. Hope the OP gets restitution for his loss. :(

PayPal
 

Can you go to PayPal and ask them to refund your money that you paid for the second time and open a case with them? I apologize if this is an obvious question and that I do not see the obvious answer? Thanks and good luck

Thanks for the thought Bob. I actually hadn't even considered contacting them since payment was by "gift", but another member also suggested this by PM. It's worth a shot, and I'm not going to overlook anything that may help the cause.

...

Ian
I rarely post on this board but I log in several times every day and have been involved in the Hobby for almost 40 years and don't know why you don't tell this board who you have this problem with. From what you have posted I am 100% behind you but I am bothered that you have revealed this seller to a few but not all.
I am just worried as someone in the Hobby that this can happen to me and it could have been avoided. If you revealed the name to 6 people why not reveal it to the rest just to protect us and if it turns out to be a mistake which I doubt just let us know
CN

This is an unfortunate example of our b/s/t. I hope that it doesn't put a stain on what is one of the best card transaction forums ever. If you don't use pp servives or goods then you are at some risk with a new seller. We all know that.

I have an Advantage account with BOA and they did not charge me to stop payment the last time I needed to but the six month rule still applied. If you report the check "stolen", different story.

Chris, PM sent detailing my reasoning. As said, I will give fair warning if I see he posts anything for sale here, and may very well identify him if he does not begin cooperating immediately and in earnest. As the politicians like to say however, "I want to give diplomacy a chance", and no matter what, I want to make sure I cover all my bases before doing so.

Brian, it's a very large amount for me.. 4 figures. I'd prefer leave it at that.

I'm curious Eric, how do you go about reporting a check as stolen? I'm sure all this is too late in my case, nor did I have any reason to truly think the check was stolen back in 2013, but I'm curious to know how you prove that, and how it's handled differently? If stolen, will they truly cancel the check? I saw on line that B of A charges about the same as Wells for a 6 month hold, so they must have waived the fees, right?

+1

plus the seller could use a different handle on another board in which you are not a member and cant warn anyone if he ever tries to sell again.......if we knew the name of the actual individual we could avoid being potentially ripped off....if you don't disclose the name and you are 100% sure of the facts you have stated, I really don't understand why the drama in not sharing the name with the community..otherwise you are allowing for other victims, and if your facts are inaccurate the seller can defend himself......seems like a win win..

This is a big deal to the seller, as it's going to get nasty for him at some point, so I'm sure he's reading these posts - he doesn't have to be logged on to do so.

But he does have to be logged on in order to create ads in the B/S/T, and Ian is watching to see if he logs on, so those who can't seem to exist without knowing the person's name, can rest easy and concentrate on giving advice if they have any.

Ian, sorry to hear about this situation. I'm astounded that a 14 month old check could still be deposited/cashed. I agree with you, the fact that he did not sign and return the affidavit makes me seriously doubt his innocence. I, like many others, would like him to be outed. However, I understand your reasons for not doing so and I agree that outing him if he posts an item on B/S/T is an appropriate safeguard. Lastly, just because he has not signed in for 3 days does not mean he hasn't read this thread. He can read it without signing in.

Do you have it in writing that he claims not to have signed or deposited the check? If you do, the bank should offer fraud protection against your transactions. And if he says in writing he did not cash the check, that should be proof of fraud. It would be no different than if someone opened my mail and took a check I made out to the cable company and cashed it into their account.

The seller can do this alleged fraud on other boards that IAN isn't on...without the sellers name he can basically stop his business on net54 and get victims on other boards....if don't know his name

How about you just don't pay for large transactions with checks for a while?

You'll be okay buddy, and meanwhile, Ian can continue working on this in the manner that he thinks best. I can assure you he's given this a lot of thought and when he's ready to post dollar amounts and names he will do so.

You yourself said that this is a one-sided story, so why do you feel it's Ian's job to protect the world from someone who hasn't even voiced his side of the story yet? Don't you think such a crusade would is a bit premature?

Scott,
It is a one sided story so far Ians Side. (and granted he my be completly right) BUT in my opinion its a bit premature to come and post up something like this and not have waited until there was a final outcome. I.E. police,bank,return of money etc. Its the old carrot in front of the donkey ,Here is the story But Im not going to tell you who it is until BLAH ,BLAH ,BLAH . Of course people waht to know who it is ,is just human nature. Difference with you is you know who it is! Makes it much easier when a select few have that information and not everyone. My feeling is Ian should have waited until there was a final outcome either positive or negative to post up something like this. Just my nickels worth!

Al, what you say makes perfect sense. I think some might be missing his motive for posting here: he is trying to arrive at a final outcome and thinks this will help, both in terms of gathering advice he hadn't thought of and getting the accused to step forward.

Some people post such things to sway opinion or to blow off steam. That isn't the case here.

Thankyou Scott,
And yes I do understand that he is trying to find out some information on how to proceed. Even some of the information posted opened my eyes to not knowing how the banks worked with respect to checks and time in cashing them. I assume that this was at least a four figure transaction and not something like $50.00. But in saying that I think at some point in time Ian outs the person involved as to save other board members the same plight that he has suffered weather it be now or after this ever gets resolved. The whole point of this board most times is to alert people about I.E. Bad cards on ebay, Bad items, people who dont pay, etc. This case is no different. We post ebay (handles) names all the time so why would this be different. If you want to live by the sword then you should die by the sword!