The All Overrated Team
 

It's in good fun. This is a list a baseball pal and I decided on this afternoon at lunch, the players who acclaim is most distant from their measurable, statistical performance, for a full starting 9. I'd like to see your picks for a team.


SP Nolan Ryan
C Yadier Molina
1B Tony Perez
2B Jackie Robinson
SS Cal Ripken
3B Pie Traynor
LF Lou Brock
CF Mike Trout
RF Roberto Clemente


SP - 112 ERA+. The K’s, the No Hitters, the press. But he wasn’t particularly good over the course of his career at not giving up runs. His astounding longevity is impressive enough; but his legend doesn’t stand up to statistical scrutiny.

C Yadier Molina - Maybe it’s me, but I don’t see it. Reliable, good catcher for many years, which is genuinely worth a lot, but his reputation has grown greatly the last few years into being hall worthy, and seems to be expanding from there into a no brainer. A compiler.

1B is the realm of sluggers, Perez I think is the most overrated of them. He made the Hall for being on the Big Red Machine and chalking up RBI’s on a time where that’s not much of an accomplishment. 122 is an abysmally low OPS+ for a 1B. He led the league in GDP once, and that’s it. Unlike many of Frisch’s cronies and other poor elections, he isn’t usually brought up as one.

2B can only be one, painful as it is to put him. Jackie was a great player, and a great man who represents a watershed moment of progress. It doesn’t change that he was nowhere near as good as the public generally holds him to be off his fame. It is often difficult to divorce his significance and impact from his actual performance, which was excellent and Hall worthy itself, but not near top 5 great.

3B is hard; I couldn’t think of one that’s severely overrated today. Traynor was generally rated as the greatest 3B of all time well into the post WWII era, which seems very difficult to reasonably find in the statistics. I don’t think the baseball public is really far off the 3B generally found in discussion, Schmidt, Chipper, Matthews, Boggs.

SS I almost chose Jeter. He’s a hard case, half think he’s basically Ruth but the other half think he was garbage and the worst defensive player of all time, which is rather excessive. He’s spawned more of an ‘opposite reaction’ to an initial overrating in the public consciousness (other than cheaters) than anyone else. Ripken is a 112 OPS+ guy, a compiler with great durability, which has a lot of value, but his reputation is as a contender for the best SS of all time. He’s not, objectively.

LF A major record holder for awhile, and he hit .293. He didn’t do much besides hit .293 and steal bases. By most total value measures, he is one of the hall’s worst, but due to the record isn’t usually highlighted as a mistake. I think there’s a good argument that holding the career SB record is reason enough to be in the Hall, but he really wasn’t hall level quality of play.

CF He might rival Mays for the CF GOAT when it’s all done, but the baseball public is ready to crown Trout after 11 seasons. It’s far out of proportion to a sober look at what he has actually done. Tomorrow is not writ today.

RF Clemente was an actual hero, who died doing the right thing when he didn’t have to do anything. But his virtue has nothing to do with his performance on the diamond. He was the 3rd or 4th best RF of his era (Aaron, Robinson, toss up with Kaline); the public attention makes him seem like the 3rd or 4th best of any position ever. A deserving Hall of Famer, a deserving great, but not deserving of the top tier he is always placed in above everyone else who posted similar statistics.





It is opinion; claims to a players performance or a particular stat should be true, but evaluating total value is an opinion. It is an opinion in good fun; it is not an insult to anyone, just a fun exercise baseball fan’s have been doing for decades. None of these players are terrible, or their fans wrong for liking them. One can like and even admire a person but recognize their statistical measure is not quite in accord with their fame and reputation.

This is more subjective than statistical.

C -- Munson. Heresy, I know.
1B -- Cepeda although Perez is fine too.
2B -- Joe Gordon. HOF? Seriously?
SS -- Jeter. Heresy, I know.
3B -- Traynor.
OF -- Clemente (ducks), Reggie, Snider (if only because he is always included in the trio with Mays and Mantle but come on.), Brock
P -- Ryan.

I don’t remember any public conversation when Joe Gordon was elected. Previously I considered him underrated; a guy the modern metrics like, a shortened career during his prime. He didn’t deserve to be forgotten, he didn’t deserve the hall either. I have no idea how he got elected on that ballot, there must be a story there. Most of the really and VC picks we know why, the Fritsch cronyism, Baines having his old bosses forming the voting base. I’d love to know what happened there

I am going with Koufax at SP...some people think he's the best ever...he had a great 5 year run (62-66) but was average at best outside of those few glory years...SO many guys has sick 3-5 year runs...but people claim him to be top 1...5...10...I just dont see it...I take Unit every day over him

Same with Ryan...longevity and his stats were WAY more consistent...his winning % wasnt great...but he (like Verlander) had quite a few years with some absurdly awful run support.

SP Andy Pettitte - 3.85 ERA/1.35 WHIP/4 SHO in 3316 IP. An average Pitcher.
RP Lee Smith - HOFer ???????
C Ivan Rodriguez - PEDs for most of his career.
1B Tony Perez - Good player. Borderline HOFer.
2B Bill Mazeroski - Good defender. Not a HOFer.
SS Phil Rizzuto - HOFer???????
3B Graig Nettles - .248 Lifetime Avg.
LF Lou Brock - Very good player. Deserving HOFer but overrated.
CF Jim Edmonds - Seemed to anticipate the highlight reels. Good player.
RF Dave Winfield - I Always thought he could be better.
Manager Joe Torre - Mediocre manager for 14 years prior to Yankee gig.

SP - Dizzy Dean - Tim Lincecum before Tim Lincecum
RP - Trevor Hoffman - as beige a career as there is
C - Campanella - sorry, some high highs but some low lows too
1B - Sorry Gil, but still not sure you're a HOFer
2B - Biggio - compiler
SS - Jeter but not through any fault of his own
3B - Paul Molitor - lumped in with third base but played more at DH
OF - Reggie - more strike outs than hits
OF - Kirby Puckett - probably not a popular pick
OF - Duke Snider - not a Willie or a Mickey

Jackie picked at 2b is incomprehensible.

Through no fault of his own he didn't make the majors until he was 28. In 10 years he put up 60+ WAR. Name me another 2b who AVERAGED 6 WAR per season and I'll show you Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins. Show me a 2b who put up 60 WAR after the age of 28 and again I'll show you just Hornsby and Collins. For my money he's 3rd or 4th all time at the position. I can't decide between him and Morgan. Pretty hard to be overrated when your easily top 5 all-time at your position.

When you are #1-#2 in the public eye at any position, I don’t see how it is incomprehensible. His fame and reputation are immensely greater than his statistical achievement. This is not a slur to his actual performance.

I like this. Dean was great, for as long as Lincecum was great.

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

I guess it comes down to how we are defining how someone is "overrated."

I don't see how you could call Jackie overrated as a player unless you think WAR is a complete joke. As you pointed out, he put up 60 War in fewer than 1,500 games. The only others in history with as high a WAR in fewer than 1,500 games? “Shoeless” Joe Jackson (62.1 WAR in 1,332 games) and Mike Trout (76.1 WAR in 1,288 games). https://www.mlb.com/news/most-underrated-hall-of-famers

In Jackie's 5 year peak from 1949 thru 1953 his WAR was 9.3, 7.4, 9.7, 8.4, 6.9 for an absurd average of 8.34. People win MVP with 8 or less WAR on a regular basis.

I think the only way you could say Jackie is overrated is to say that his cards sell for too much. Which again, I think is a lousy argument, considering that he completely transformed the game.

I limited my list to players who played at least part of their careers in my lifetime. Admitted bias as I never really cared for any of these guys other than Reggie.

C: IRod
1b: Bagwell
2b: Alomar
3b: Edgar Martinez
SS: Ozzie Smith
LF: Rose
CF: Snider
RF: Reggie
SP: Glavine

I would not rank him third among 2B. I don’t see a way to do that in the numbers without ignoring longevity entirely. I don’t give credit for the war years, to anyone. College and the war years create his gap (I’m giving him credit for his Negro League career). I don’t think I can reasonably count years that did not happen in reality. I’d have to find my notes but I had him around 10 last time I really deep dived into the 2B. I like Jackie, I’m fine with his cards selling for more than his talent as a great historical figure, but I think he is greatly overrated in the public eye. Ask casuals who the greatest historical players are at any position. They won’t say Eddie Collins (who I put #1 among 2B). His fame produces an inflation of his on the field performance.

I don't think Jackie is the greatest 2B of all time, my vote would go to Hornsby, and it's not even close, and this is despite the fact that Hornsby was an extremely unlikeable character.

I would not say that Jackie is overrated by any stretch of the imagination. I also don't think he's underrated.

In 1999, the Major League Baseball All-Century Team was chosen by popular vote of fans. To select the team, a panel of experts first compiled a list of the 100 greatest Major League Baseball players from the past 20th century. Over two million fans then voted on the players using paper and online ballots. The top two vote-getters from each position were placed on the team.

Here are the Shortstops on the list to vote for:

Rod Carew, Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Morgan and Jackie Robinson.

Robinson came in 1st with 788,116 votes
Hornsby came in 2nd with 630,761 votes

I would say 788,116 think Robinson is the greatest 2nd basemen of all time.
I would personally say as great as he was, at least 788,116 people overrate him.

Depends how you define greatness. We give Ruth credit for his impact on the game. The same value add should accrue to Robinson.

In a few special cases, yes, agreed. That said, I would rate Jackie around 4th or 5th.

My view is Jackie being overrated is an attempt at a hot take that is tried so often it’s a cold take. 7 straight years with MVP shares. Guy was pretty sick at 2B. If anything I think he’s underrated.

But does overrating him by a couple spots make him the most overrated of all time???

Billy Herman is in the hall with a lower WAR than Jackie's 10 year career in 15 years. Mazeroski barely got to HALF of Jackie's total in 17 years. You don't see anyone wushing to put Frank White in the HOF and he's damn near the identical player to Mazeroski. If we're going with MOST overrated I just don't see how it can be a guy who averaged 6 WAR. If you like counting stats then Jackie can't be your guy, but fer cryin' out loud he's 16th all-time in WAR at the position in half the time of a lot of the guys ahead of him, and many of them only beat him by a hair. If you look at WAR 7 he jumps to 5th all time, WAR5C Also 5th all time, and again his major league career didn't start until he was 28.

P Bert Blyleven
C Ted Simmons
1b David Ortiz
2b Red Schoendienst
SS Derek Jeter
3b Edgar Martinez
LF Barry Bonds
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Hank Aaron

I don't think many people would vote for Billy Herman or Mazeroski as the greatest ever at their position. The majority of people that voted in the All Century poll did vote for Robinson as the greatest 2nd basemen ever. You stated I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time and clearly many people do. I cannot think of another player that comes close to Robinson at having his status as the greatest at his position be based more on his reputation than his performance.

All that said, i do think Robinson was a great player, one of the greatest, and probably a even better human being. It's not his fault his ML career started so late but the truth is his numbers just don't add up to being the greatest at his position as many people seem to rank him. This is why i think he is one of the most overrated players.

People seem to think being labeled overrated is a huge putdown but i don't. In Robinson and Clementes' case it is probably a compliment to know that so many people rate you that highly based on what you did off the field as much or more than what you did on the field.

This. Robinson is, in the public eye, one of the absolute greatest of all time. His measurable, statistical performance simply does not track with this. It is not an insult. I even laid effusive praise upon his person. His fame and precedence in the pantheon are more divorced from performance than probably any other player.

There are a group of players who a large part of the baseball fan world do not want to hear anything about that does not further the legend and myth. Ruth fans don't get upset if someone makes a fat joke. Williams fans don't get upset if someone says he could have played nicer with the press. One doesn't even have to say anything actually negative of Jackie, of Clemente, of Ryan, of Koufax, just not further the legend to rankle some feathers. It's a mark of an overrated player.

Jackie's short career (his Negro League career was 1 season, 1945, which count as the majors now) was because of WWII and college. He spent only one season in the minor leagues, not exactly an unfair amount of time. That he chose to retire instead of play out the rest of his decline with the Giants protects his percentages, which have been the primary basis for ranking him fairly high among 2B as a top ten. Another mark of an overrated player is they are the ones that tend to get people wanting to count fantasy seasons as if they had happened, not as a hypothetical 'what if', but for actual ranking credit.

I keep losing track of whether I'm on the underrated or overrated threads.

Do most people think Jackie is one of the best of all time purely because of technical skill or because of what he meant to the game and America, combined with some damn fine technical skill? Guessing the letter.

Respectfully, Campy doesn’t get close to the credit he deserves. Career limited at the beginning by racism as he was pioneer like Jackie. Doby and Campy get no credit for that.
Aside from that, in addition to his great defensive skills, he played 9 full seasons and won mvp 3 of them. That’s 1/3 of his career. Howmany guy have 3 mvps much less in one decade.

You always have an interesting POV. Can you explain the outfield?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9RvABfC5q8&t=345s

When you play defense like at 5:30 of this video and get gifted gold gloves - You Are Overrated!

When your home park is the easiest stadium in baseball to hit home runs in, and you need your team to move the fences in to make it easier for you to hit home runs - You Are Overrated!

When you need to use steroids to improve your performance - You Are Overrated!

When your cards are worth more than those of Ted Williams, Stan Musial and Willie Mays even though you weren't as good as them - You Are Overrated!

I said I was sorry! His MVPs are what make me think of him as overrated. You hear three time MVP and you can't help but be impressed. But he sprinkled in some bad seasons in 1954, 1956 and his final season in 1957.

A third of his career he was incredible. Another third he wasn't.

In his 9 seasons he played 100 games or more, he was significantly below league average for 3 of them.

He won 3 MVP’s. If one is a fan of WAR, he was not even really close to the most valuable player on his team in any of them. He performs better by the traditional stats but I have a hard time seeing him deserving these 3 MVP’s when looking at the other candidates performance, even though I like Campanella.

Bench has a similar issue with weak seasons mixed among brilliant ones. A lot of catchers do. I rate Berra as the #1 catcher but he doesn’t really deserved his 3 MVP’s either, the voters really liked Yogi and Campy.

He’s a lower tier hall of famer, excellent peak but his excellence was very brief. That everyone is now accounting negro league stats the same as the leagues everyone considered the majors until a couple years ago boosts his career figures somewhat, but I don’t think really changes his general tier but can bump him up a slot or two if all the catchers are ranked in order

Campy’s 52 Bowman is one of my favorite cards. Fellow had some great card poses. His 59 Topps is a special card for non aesthetic reasons. I grew up in Giants country, but having read most of the 50’s dodger hagiography and his teammates comments on him, it kind of hurts to rate him overrated.

He really does have some beautiful cards. I've been on the prowl for a really nice Wilson Franks of Campanella for a little while. I've also always been a fan of his 1952 Berk Ross.

The Wilson is a great choice. It’s a real shame the objective quality of the Berk Ross cards printing was so low because whoever picked the photos to use did a fantastic job. Campy and Ray Noble have classic catcher poses in it that I just love.

Yes, the Barney Stein photo used for the '52 Berk Ross and other cards is a stunner. Here is an article about all of the cards that are based off that photo.
https://www.postwarcards.com/so-many...-same-picture/

I love it so much, I bought one of the original photos by Barney Stein.
https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzYVow

Great article. This topic may prove dangerous, I only have the 51 Bowman of those.

All good my friend!
I just love the guy so admittedly I am biased. I have a Dodger Blue Dodge Charger named Campy for crying out loud!

I think we was loved as he was so friendly and likeable even though he got racism from both sides being half Italian and half Black. His biography is wonderful as he kept his Christian faith despite what happened to him. I wouldn't say he was a great looking guy per se but most of his cards are beautiful.

I love lists and debates like this. Didn't mean to hijack it :)

Carry on

My favorite item
https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...pictureid=4070

So Hank Aaron misplayed a ball in the 1966 All Star Game which was 6 years after he last won a gold glove award so he's overrated? Ok, got it.

^^^This!

In some ways I actually feel bad for him having the great honor of being the first black MLB player. Tremendous accomplishment in its own right considering what he endured and how it transcended beyond sports. However, I think a lot of people overlook how good of a player he actually was. I think you're correct as the number 3 or 4 all time at 2nd.

I guess putting wildly undeserving guys in the HOF strikes me as more overrated than people saying Jackie was the greatest second basemen of all time when he's only among the greatest.

I will say I was surprised that so many people picked him at number one, but nobody with an ounce of analytical ability would do that. That being said taking in a sample of baseball sites just in the order they pop up on google they have him rated 8th, 3rd, 4th, 7th and 5th. I'd argue with 7th and 8th, that they are relying too much on counting stats, but still that averages out to 5th.

To me even if you meant overrated by the general public the leap from 5th to 1st is less than Mazeroski's leap from MAYBE top 50 to HOF, leapfrogging a couple dozen guys with better numbers.

Mazeroski is almost universally regarded by the very knowledgeable as a poor choice for the Hall and a mistake. In fact, its difficult to bring up his name in such company and not get a comment to that effect almost immediately. Same for Schoendienst, et alii. The general public does not know who Schoendienst et alii even are and might know Mazeroski for a World Series homer.

Meanwhile, Jackie is a top 5 player at any position all time in the public eye. He was an excellent to great player for ~8 seasons. He seems to easily qualify for the players whose acclaim is most distant from their measurable, statistical performance.

I think there's a divide between players that are overrated by fans, versus players that are overrated by sportswriters, nevertheless I will attempt to answer the question at hand.

Catcher: Rick Ferrell

Not an exceptional hitter by any stretch of the means, an average defender by the numbers. Got in to the Hall on the veterans committee, which has been known for their skewing of votes.

First Base: Jim Bottomley

Another selection of the veterans committee. A very solid, pre-war player, but one that I can't really get behind in terms of the Hall of Fame. I will say had he been able to replicate his numbers from his twenties, he'd be much more deserving.

Second Base: Bill Mazeroski

An excellent defender through and through for the pirates, but we all know why he made the Hall; one incredible home run.

Third Base: Freddie Lindstrom

Similar reasons as Catcher and First Base, a Vet Committee darling.

Shortstop: David Bancroft

See Above

Left Field : Bo Jackson

I thoroughly admire Bo as an athlete, and his contributions to College/Pro Football. But people talk "What If" with him all the time when it comes to baseball and the guy hit for a terrible average.

Center Field: Earle Combs

A product of the Yankees media hype machine, that emerged around the time of Ruth, he does not belong in the Hall

Right Field: Roger Maris

He was good, Not great. He did have a couple of Great Seasons though. Deserves recognition, undoubtedly, but does not belong in the Hall, even though some people are calling for it.

You can't have it both ways and take the "uneducated" public calling Jackie the greatest and hence he's overerrated, and then take the "educated" opinion on Maz that says he's a horrible HOF choice so he's not overrated.

Read it again. Both are very directly, and clearly addressed. "Mazeroski is almost universally regarded by the very knowledgeable as a poor choice for the Hall and a mistake. In fact, its difficult to bring up his name in such company and not get a comment to that effect almost immediately. Same for Schoendienst, et alii. The general public does not know who Schoendienst et alii even are and might know Mazeroski for a World Series homer."

The "educated" historians almost unviersally lambast the Mazeroski election and hold him as undeserving. The general baseball public does not know who he is or knows him for a single homer. Neither group overrates him. As I said, originally.

We already talked about Jackie's ranking among 2B only before. The general public holds him as a top 5 at any position.