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-   -   Completing the t218 Master Set Checklist - Cash Reward for proof of missing cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=273204)

G1911 09-04-2019 03:56 PM

Completing the t218 Master Set Checklist - Cash Reward for proof of missing cards
 
Hi all,

I’m trying to finish the t218 Master Set, which of course requires a complete checklist (at precisely 630 confirmed right now). The more I try to find the cards I am missing scans of to prove they exist that I had marked as existing in my original research notes from a decade+ ago, the more convinced I am that some theoretical combinations simply do not exist at all and that I made an error in marking down the Blue Johnson and series 3 track cards. I am offering a cash reward (I’ll PayPal you through F&F, PM me your PayPal email) for reasonable photographic evidence that any of the following cards exist (to the first person to provide proof for any specific card).


Likely do not exist - $25 reward
1) H.J. Handy, Hassan Factory 30 back
2) H.J. Handy, Hassan Factory 649 back
3) Jack Johnson (Green), Tolstoi
4) Jack Johnson (Green), Mecca Factory 30 (No Series 2 Notation)



Likely do not exist - $15 reward
1) Johnny Hayes, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
2) Johnny Hayes, Mecca Factory 649, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
3) Jack Johnson (Blue), Hassan Factory 30 back, without series 2 notation
4) Jack Johnson (Green), Hassan Factory 30 back, with series 2 notation
5) Abel Kiviat, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
6) Gusta Ljungstrom, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
7) Gusta Ljungstrom, Mecca Factory 649, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
8) James Rector, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
9) Edward Payson Weston, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name


Might Exist - $15 reward
Joe Jeanette with his name misspelled as "Jeanette", with a single "n" on any back OTHER than the Hassan, factory 30, no series notation

And the reverse, his name spelled correctly with two "n"'s on the Hassan, Factory 30, no series notation reverse


Quite Possibly Exist - no reward but good karma?
Robert Cloughan, name misspelled with the "a" on back, Mecca Factory 30

scooter729 09-08-2019 08:13 PM

I just checked through about 40 examples of those cards with no new ones to add to your list.

Curious how you feel about C52 being part of the T218 master set. I know it's technically a different set, but I've always thought of it as something I would want for a T218 master. (Admittedly, I am not chasing a T218 master, but have a regular T218 set along with a C52 set.) The fronts are the same (albeit with a smaller checklist for the C52s), and it's really similar to just being a different ad on the back.

DaveW 09-09-2019 08:54 AM

Scott,
Iíve always thought that the C52 cards are no different than the Tolstoi cards - same fronts and text as the T218 cards but with a different brand (or no brand for the C52s). I think they are all really just a part of the T218 group. A better question is how do we know they were put out by the Imperial Tobacco company? Do you have any info on that? Thereís nothing on the card to indicate that. I think that they were probably printed by American Lithograph as a generic set and sold to smaller brands (maybe just in Canada?). And why are there just 9 of the Series 2 cards but 50 each of Series 1 and 3?
- Dave

Greg,
Those are the same 13 cards that Iíve never seen. I would put all the Johnson and Handy cards in the not likely to exist category and the Series 3 track guys in the maybe exist category (but really rare). Hopefully, somebody will cash in on your offer.
- Dave

Marslife 09-09-2019 12:30 PM

Master Update
 
Hey There!

Checked my 310 cards, no reward money due to me :-(

good news for the Master Set :-)

TTYL!

Cliff

G1911 09-09-2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter729 (Post 1915442)
I just checked through about 40 examples of those cards with no new ones to add to your list.

Curious how you feel about C52 being part of the T218 master set. I know it's technically a different set, but I've always thought of it as something I would want for a T218 master. (Admittedly, I am not chasing a T218 master, but have a regular T218 set along with a C52 set.) The fronts are the same (albeit with a smaller checklist for the C52s), and it's really similar to just being a different ad on the back.


I've flip-flopped on this issue several times, and have struggled to identify much of any evidence about the particulars of this set beyond the checklist. I'm collecting a C52 run along with my T218 set, though I'm only at ~35 cards or so.


First, like Dave, I question whether this was even a Canadian issue. It seems to me the primary evidence it is Canadian is that A) it has card numbers (which Imperial Tobacco often did), and B) that there is no factory number on the back (as required by American law, but in no other nation), which are both very circumstantial and could lead to many other conclusions too. I know of some sourced from Canada, but some of mine have come from original collections in the American south too, mixed with Mecca backs. I'm not aware of any real evidence that the set is indeed Canadian, though it very well may be true. I don't think the evidence is enough to assume Burdick's designation as a Canadian set is true.


To me, the key points for considering it part of T218 is that it was clearly printed by American Lithographic around the time of the T218 set (most 'reprint' tobacco sets like T223, T215 etc. have much lower quality images, as the original printing stones/plates wore down), sharing the same artwork. The key evidence against is that the checklist of the first series of C52 does not align with T218.


I think it is safe to say C52 series 1 was not printed concurrently with T218. A) It is missing Handy, who was released with T218-1 during its initial Mecca run and then pulled, and B) card #1 is Jack Johnson (Green), who was not printed in the initial run of T218-1 but added to the issue part way through (though I think a preponderance of the evidence suggests this actually has nothing to do with Handy being pulled, as is often said, as, for starters, both cards are very common with a Mecca 649 back). C) The 9 T218-2 cards that appear with duplicate numbers in the first series of C52.


To me, with the evidence available, it is a separate set, but closely related cousin, like T219. T219 was printed in the same period as T218, but not at the same time, and thus, is a cousin set instead of a back variation. I think there is a separation between the 3 sets based on A) the series composition being different and B) that they were printed at different times. More evidence about the actual time of printing and how/where/why the C52 backs were issued could easily change this conclusion, in my personal opinion.

G1911 09-09-2019 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveW (Post 1915492)

Greg,
Those are the same 13 cards that Iíve never seen. I would put all the Johnson and Handy cards in the not likely to exist category and the Series 3 track guys in the maybe exist category (but really rare). Hopefully, somebody will cash in on your offer.
- Dave

I've got no PM or private reports yet, but if they do exist, hoping this will draw out the proof!


I'm pretty confident on the missing green Johnsons, 100% on the Handy's I've been looking for for years. I suspect the Fact. 30 series 3 track guys that are known with a 649 back may be out there, as some of the cards with this caption are fairly common (like Sellen) and others are very scarce (like Holmer).


I did not include it, but the other theoretical card is the Cloughan error, with a Mecca 30 back. I think this is the one most likely to surface, but if it does exist, almost certainly is the rarest single card in the set.

scooter729 09-09-2019 08:07 PM

For what it's worth, the majority of my cards from my C52 set (about 70 or 75 of the cards) were purchased about 10 years ago from a Canadian seller who found the whole group in an attic. So that always helped me believe this was indeed a Canadian set.

G1911 09-09-2019 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter729 (Post 1915654)
For what it's worth, the majority of my cards from my C52 set (about 70 or 75 of the cards) were purchased about 10 years ago from a Canadian seller who found the whole group in an attic. So that always helped me believe this was indeed a Canadian set.


I have one batch that came from Virginia, from a descendant of an original child collector of the 1910 period. Another batch came came with backstamps of the name of the presumed early collector, mixed C52 and Mecca cards. 3 more came from New York, and some from Canadian sellers but I'm not sure that's where the cards actually originated and they didn't wander around in the last hundred years. 70 C52's at once is one heck of a buy!

G1911 06-28-2020 08:35 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Updating to add a small price for a "Jeanette" spelling error that breaks the pattern I have seen. As far as I have observed thus far, the error is only on all H30 no series backs, and all H30 no series backs have the error.

H30 error on left, corrected card on right. Kind of hope this pattern doesn't break, as a master set of 630 cards only fits so well into 9 pocket pages!

Tao_Moko 06-30-2020 04:03 PM

I reviewed my stack of over 300 and cannot confirm any new variations. That is of over 300 Boxers.

G1911 06-30-2020 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko (Post 1995124)
I reviewed my stack of over 300 and cannot confirm any new variations. That is of over 300 Boxers.

Thank you for checking!

EGreenwood 07-01-2020 08:13 PM

Hello,

I check my set, and no wanted variations to report.

Erik

G1911 07-02-2020 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGreenwood (Post 1995486)
Hello,

I check my set, and no wanted variations to report.

Erik

Thank you Erik!

Heard from a few others offline as well, so far the Jeanette/Jeannette pattern is holding. Pretty sure the master remains 630, with a F30 Cloughan the most likely card to have been printed but still unknown.

G1911 01-26-2021 01:18 AM

I will triple the reward for Jeannette/Jeanette in my OP (a scan, photograph or similar reasonable evidence of its reality); the pattern is still holding true and I'm 99% sure this is it. Like the T205 Mathewson Cycle back variation, it doesn't add a new card to the checklist but is simply that all copies of a particular back have a second difference, affecting a master set not at all.

Going from $5 to $15.


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