This. The premiums on most coins are hard to recoup when you go to sell...not always, but many times.

David- I have a question, maybe you can answer it. Last year I had a gold chain I wanted to sell. I calculated the actual value of the gold (I know how to do that), and offered it for 90% of that amount. I put it on BST, and my wife listed it on ebay and I think on etsy.

We didn't have a single inquiry anywhere. So how cheap do you have to list a commodity to make a sale? I know nobody pays full value- if I bring scrap gold into the diamond district in Manhattan they pay at most 70%, if that. Wouldn't you think 90% of face would work? I assume if I offer ten dollar bills for $9 each, business will be very brisk.

Barrysloate: There are several coin shops in Bergen County, NJ (Oradell Coin is 1) that will pay full spot for gold. There is a substantial "middle" between the spot price and the ask retail price. Plenty of room for them to make money. I'd say the middle is about 5% - or currently over $60.

Numismatic/bullion: As David said it is often difficult to recoup the premium paid for a numismatic coin as opposed to a bullion coin. Not always. There is also the idea that in buying a numismatic coin as a relative layperson that you can be had by unscrupulous sellers, and they are out there. Not a lot different than the baseball card market in that respect - see our current travails.

Peter: Although I know zilch about Titanium, on many of the precious metals that are sold the nation state mint coins can often demand a premium over bars and other forms. I have never purchased other than minted coins of different countries, but know of folks who have had to have their bars, etc. assayed before sale to satisfy the buyer that they have not been tampered with. Kind of a potential hindrance to a quick transaction. I suppose that coins could be hit too, buy my reading of the market is that is much less likely.

That's interesting, but everybody should pay around the same. One area can't overpay or pay more than another.

What 58pinsin said.

Maybe there was an error in your weight/purity calculations where you thought it was worth more?

While I'm sure it seems counterintuitive, it is exactly what happens. Although it may seem hard to believe there are actually people who put gold items in a bag/box and mailed them to TV ad/scams and received checks for an abysmal percentage of their worth. Walk into any mall in the US and there are kiosks that will offer 50% or much less of spot. It's just that many folks who decide to sell spare pieces of gold are not that informed and are preyed on by a merciless marketplace.

I think the bottom line is that there are just different competing business models. The reputable coin store that is based on and content with making a fair profit, been doing it for a long time, and actually wants to have repeat customers. As opposed to the bottom feeders who are in it for as long as it lasts and will push any advantage they have to the hilt and pack it up when the party's over and people wise up or word gets out. Then again, all that's just my personal opinion.

Your mentioning the lack of success you had when trying to sell some gold doesn't surprise me too much. There is only a miniscule percentage of the US population that owns or has interest in owning gold (or silver etc. for that matter). I recall a video I watched on Youtube a few years ago where a social researcher stood in front of a coin store in California and offered passersby a 1 ounce Canadian Gold Maple Leaf (face value of $50 for legal reasons) that had a current spot value of $1,500 for $25. No takers. Wish I'd have run into him.

There was another recent experiment where passersby were offered a silver bar or a chocolate bar - their choice. Not one took the silver bar IIRC.

My understanding, or at least assumption, is that bars and rounds and such from major sellers like Apmex, Silver Towne Mint, etc. are presumed to be the real thing and are liquid without any testing.

I think you basic assumption is correct Peter. Especially when considering the smaller pieces. I have never dabbled with non-mint struck metal and my information is from acquantainces who have had issues. From what I understand the larger the bar (usually) or piece of silver (usually) the more likely the buyer would have qualms about not getting it assayed. A lot of funny business can go on with a 100 oz. bar of silver if in the hands of someone not on the up and up.
There would be counterparty risk in a situation like that, IMHO.

I did not mean to intimate that the premium associated with state minted coins over plain bars is due to verification - I am sure they are simply more expensive to produce. Just that anyone who walks into a coin dealer with a 100 oz silver bar and plunks it down on the counter is likely going to have a different experience that if they bring in 5 US mint silver eagle tubes.

The silver eagles are certainly beautiful; the obverse is of course a reproduction of the Walking Liberty half dollar which is gorgeous.

Here is how I calculated it, so if you think I made a mistake please tell me:

First I weighed it on my O'Haus gram scale, and it weighed between 25 and 26 grams, so I called it .9 of an ounce for convenience. I multiplied that by the price of gold, which was around $1300 at that time. Then since it was 14K, I multiplied that by .583, since it is 14/24 pure. So I got:

.9 x 1300 x .583= $682 worth of gold. And I offered it for $625.

I also have a gold testing kit, with the acid bottles and the black stone, so I know how to test it too. Were my calculations right?

Keep in mind that an ounce of gold isn't measured in regular ounces, it's measured in troy ounces. There are 28.35 grams in a regular ounce, 31.10 in a troy ounce. So, let's say you had 25 grams of gold, really that's only .8 of a troy ounce, not .9.

When I do the math on my calculator, I get $609.24. When I use this scrap value calculator, I get $609.52, so very close.

http://coinapps.com/gold/14k/calculator/

Thanks David. I never knew about the use of troy ounces. I know there are twenty pennyweights (dwt) to an ounce, but don't know exactly how to use them in calculating.

Gold spot hit $1380 this morning, highest in five years. I believe our discussion on this thread is the main reason for the steep rise.:)

Not really, there are a ton of really good fakes out there from every company. I recently saw some really good fake 1oz silver bars from silver towne.

Right, but just to clarify, the bars aren't coming from SilverTowne, they just have the SilverTowne logo. I linked a good video in a previous post, but here it is again. Some fake MCM bars and how to spot them (or any other fake bar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rjJmGGkNPU

Correct, I worded it wrong. Fakes with the silver towne logo on them.

Check out this $20 bill from 1960. What does "REDEEMABLE IN LAWFUL MONEY AT THE UNITED STATES TREASURY, OR AT ANY FEDERAL RESERVE BANK" mean?

What is lawful money? Wasn't this $20 bill lawful money?

If so, how can you redeem it for lawful money if it's already lawful money?

I have no idea what it really means. I can guarantee I would take a $20 bill over a chunk of silver worth the same any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

If I take 2 $10 bills and buy a $20 bill I have $20 at any point in time. Now if I take that $20 bill and buy silver I immediately lost value/money.

David- I believe that $20 bill is dated 1950.

Interestingly, while any $20 will purchase $20 worth of goods, in the late 19th-early 20th century consumers had more faith in gold and silver certificates than they did in federal reserve notes or other forms of currency..

It's a series 1950. The "lawful money" clause is one of the steps to the full fiat currency we have today. The earlier Federal Reserve notes were redeemable in gold, which changed with the series 1934 notes since FDR made gold ownership illegal. "Lawful money" in this case would be silver. Now they're just paper.

Thanks, Don. It may be a 1950. I pulled the image from eBay and the seller's description said 1960, but they may have mistyped. I'm not familiar with paper currency.

Either way, it was a rhetorical question. I knew the answer. I wanted to see who else knew and wanted to spark a conversation. Your answer is correct. It was one of the steps to a fiat currency system.

However, that's not what our forefathers intended. In fact, they were very much opposed to paper currency. Shortly before Washington's second inauguration, Congress passed the Coinage Act of 1792. They intended for our currency to be in the form of coins which were made of 90% gold and silver. The value of the coins were based on a fixed price of gold and silver. There was no fiat currency.

This worked great until the Civil War when Lincoln started issuing promissory notes to pay the union soldiers. That's was the start of the fiat currency system that we have today. However, our currency was still tied to gold and silver reserves for many years later.

So what changed to bring us into today's fiat currency system? What is our money backed by today? Why aren't coins still made of real silver and gold anymore? Who is going to pay our 23 Trillion dollar debt? Can our government just keep printing money over and over and over again and expect everything to be ok? Something has to give, right?

Whether it's a 1950 or 1960 note, y'all really need to take another look at the wording on that $20 bill and open your eyes to what it happening in the US with our fiat currency system. If you still don't know, just ask someone from Venezuela what happens when the paper currency becomes worthless.

Glad to say that my wealth lies outside of the banking system.

Are people in Venezuela trading each other precious metals for food and water?

I'm sure there are many ways to barter.

I can't see trading someone food for silver or gold unless I've got access to some kind of enormous stock pile or insider information on when the shortages will end. Like others pointed out, you can't eat or drink silver and gold.

Why would there be a shortage of food and water? That makes no sense. My point is that no one will want the currency if it is worthless. Food and water (and other supplies) will still be available, it's a matter of what it's going to take to acquire them.

Silver and gold has been used as currency for thousands of years.

As I pointed out, the words "silver" and "money" are the same word in many different languages.

As was also pointed out, you could purchase an entire city block in Germany for an ounce of gold right after WW2.

You brought up Venezuela, a place where hyperinflation has consumed all currency and created a shortage of food and water. I don't know how much food or water a person can expect in exchange for gold, unless the people with gold have some kind of unfettered access to basic survival staples.

I don't know where the block of land for an ounce of gold story comes from. I've never heard that before.

I'm not going to try and convince you. You can believe what you want to believe. The US is in 23 trillion dollars worth of debt and that number is only growing larger. The printing presses at the mints are running overtime. But, hey, if you don't see a problem with that, ok.


It's true. But let me give you an example that may hit you closer to home. What was Manhattan purchased for? Come one, tell us? :)

I'm not challenging what our debt is, I just don't see how precious metals are going to become more valuable than food or water should hyperinflation create shortages in them.

I'm not sure how purchasing Manhattan relates to anything being discussed re: hyperinflation or the role precious metals would play in a new economy where basic survival staples need to be secured in place of currency. Is there a source for the story about Germany?

The question of why someone would trade food or water (or anything elso of value) for worthless metals has been brought up several times in this thread, most recently in regards to Venezuela.

Let me imagine that I am in that country now and in the business of selling food. The current exchange of the Venezuelan Bolivar to the US $ is .10 cents.
If someone has 1,400 of these jelly beans (I mean VB's) that equates to approximately $140 US$ in purchasing power. If someone, on the other hand, has a one ounce gold coin, that equates to $1,400 US$. If you are the vendor and your business is selling a commodity (in this case food) would you rather accept paper currency that is in a state of extreme flux or a gold coin that is recognized as having a store of value everywhere in the world for centuries? I want the gold coin everyday of the week and twice on the proverbial Sunday. Not when everything is going smoothly, but when the bad stuff hits the fan. There is no longer any confidence that the paper you accept today will have anything like the same purchasing power tomorrow/next week. When paper currency is reduced from a state of fiat currency that prevails as long as the users have confidence in it's issuer, into a blatant out of control street hustle con game it loses it facility to carry out day to day business transactions. Just my take on things, I am perfectly amenable to everyone holding their points of view and realize that I am in a distinct minority in the USA (at least for now).

But your example is made on the assumption that the person selling goods has access to enough goods for an indeterminable amount of time that they can afford to sell food and still have more food to eat after the sale. It also assumes the vendor has access to outside markets, which the people of Venezuela do not.

I know you're from the city, but do you know what a farm is? Seriously?

I do, actually. That's kind of the point, your farm and your goods would become much more valuable than any piece of metal. Farms, as great as they are, also can't produce all of their goods instantaneously.

Here's a scenario that is more true to life than what I've seen put forward: I'm a merchant who sells food in a populated city in Venezuela. I sell all my food for as much gold as I can get. Now I'm hungry. Where do I go to exchange my gold for food? My customers? Other vendors like me? Won't they want to hold on to something for themselves?

You answered your own question.

I don't see any assumptions in my post except that basic human affairs and interactions will continue if they can. You seem to believe that paper (1988 Topps cards) are preferable to conduct those transactions. In normal times I have zero arguments with that position. In troubled times things can sometimes become much more stressful. What the theoretical vendor in any country would have in such times if they accepted gold/silver instead of paper in something of much more value than paper currency that has lost the confidence of the populace. You are also transposing the merchant and the farmer in your illustration.

Throughout history, and this is especially true in Asia, precious metals have been revered as stores of value not subject to the capricious wiles of corrupt and despotic central governments. If they don't interest you I fully understand. You have 99% of the US population right in your corner. I just see things a little differently. You know you had asked if there was any backup for the Germany city blocks changing hands for a few gold coins. These type of events were reported fairly commonly during the height of the Weimar hyper-inflation of the 1920's. I might mention that there are a fair number of holocaust survivors who owe their lives to being able to bribe officials with gold or diamonds and such to get out.

Anyway, off to watch Sweden/Netherlands in footy. Cheers!

Here's the bottom line. Stackers are either right or they're wrong. I don't think there is any in between.

So if we're wrong, the majority can laugh at us and say, "I told you so" and I'll admit that I was wrong. In the end though, I'll still have my metals and I can exchange them for fiat currency. In other words, I didn't lose anything. There were no consequences.

But if the non-stackers (I don't know of another word to use :)) are wrong, you're up a $hit creek without a paddle if the SHTF. Here, there are potential consequences.

That said, that is not the reason I stack. People stack for various reasons. I stack because I like the long term potential for silver. It's got a number of industrial uses. I can't verify this (and I'm too lazy to look it up), but I heard they passed a new law in California that starting in 2020 all new homes have to be solar powered. There is silver in solar cell panels. That's just one of the industrial uses, I won't get into all the others. But that's the reason I stack - for investment (and don't get me wrong, I still have my 401k and some other investments too). But, at the same time, I have to look what is going on with the government and the insurmountable debt and realize that a SHTF type of event could be a reality.

Oh, and the answer to the question, "What was Manhattan purchased for?" is beads. Manhattan was purchased for some beads. :)

Not that it matters but Manhattan wasn't purchased for beads or precious metals, it was traded for goods. It was also traded by a tribe of Native Americans who didn't actually own the land they traded.

Sometimes context is important.

What goods?

Exact details have been lost to history. The beads story is just a story that got repeated enough to be taken as a general fact, like when people say “Elementary, my dear Watson,” in reference to Sherlock Holmes, who never once said that.

Having some gold, silver, rhodium stacked away is a prudent diversification that helps people feel less stress when economies and fiat currencies become volatile. When everything else goes to hell (real estate, stocks, baseball cards, etc.) metals usually go up. It gives comfort to know that part of your accumulated wealth is helping, to some extent, balance the losses you are experiencing elsewhere.

My preference is gold and silver Canadian Maple Leaf 1 oz. coins. The silver coins have a $5.00 face value but considering mining and manufacturing costs, they should never get that low. Still, at least there is a floor (in case somebody snags a 1000 ton asteroid made of solid silver someday.)

As far as doomsday scenarios, I think the point is that some type of money is essential when bartering goods and services, and if the fiat (paper) money becomes undependable, the fallback is precious metals. Whether that scenario will come into play in our lifetimes who knows, but it's nice to feel at least a little bit protected.

The beads story is what I always heard and apparently you've heard it as well. Maybe it's truth, maybe it isn't. Who knows? I can't prove it's true but, then again, you can't prove it's not.

"...Manhattan wasn't purchased for beads..."

As an American, I feel like I should be buying Eagles, but it just makes much more sense to buy Maple leafs. Not only because of the face value, but the fineness as well. The American Gold Eagle is only 22 karat gold (91.6% gold and 8.4% copper), but the Canadian Maple Leaf is 24 karat gold (.9999 pure). SilverTowne has the Maple Leafs for $1470.25 and the Eagles for $1488.95. Ummm...I'll take the less expensive one with more fineness, please. :)

I thought about it and I think I will dabble for the value. If you're right about doomsday at least I'll have some.

All the reasons you mention, plus one:

Suppose it's 1933 scenario all over again, and the US government returns to a gold confiscation policy. Would you be feeling guilty you didn't buy American Eagles, or would you be thankful you bought Canadian Maples?

If you're holding Eagles, you might have to hide them for 50 years, but if you're holding Maples, a trip to catch a Blue jays game (and maybe a brief stop at a coin dealer's shop to sell some of your Maples) could convert your gold asset to liquid currency rather easily.

You should read "The Creature From Jekyll Island" if you haven't already.

As I type, silver is at $19.50 an ounce, up nearly $5 an ounce from less than 3 months ago. I'm not selling right now. Just the opposite, I'm still buying. I think we'll see $25/oz silver by the end of the year...if not much sooner.

Why do we buy baseball cards, some buyers pay millions for say a T206 Wagner..Lets for discussion say the economy tanks, as 1929.

Question: What might be possibly best to trade for a piece of bread--a ounce of silver or a Mantle baseball card. So just in case why not have both!

Cash may be king, did the decline of the Roman empire begin when they removed the silver from their coins, ring a bell?

Sure. The gradual removal of silver from their coins played a large part in their decline. Their own people didn't want their coins. Shows you how valuable and important silver really is, huh? Just like the removal of silver in US coins plays a large part in the decline of the United States.

In 1964, gas was $.30 a gallon. I could take a Kennedy half and a Roosevelt dime and buy two gallons. Today, a gallon of gas is about $2.20 here locally. However, that same Kennedy half and Roosevelt dime are worth $8.46 because of their silver content. I could sell them for that amount and buy nearly 4 gallons a of gas. Which was worth more / held their value in the long run? Fiat currency or silver? The fiat currency lost its purchasing power. The silver gained in value.

Here's my point. If I gave you the choice of a $20 bill or an ounce of silver and told you that you could do anything you want with them, which would you choose? You'd be a fool not to choose the $20 bill. But if I gave you the same choice and told you that whichever you choose that you had to hold on to for 10 years, then which would you choose? You'd be a fool not to choose the silver. It will be worth more than the $20 bill in 10 years.

Please forgive any spelling or grammatical errors. I'm typing this rather quickly from my cell phone.

This chart suggests silver is still at nearly an all time low on an inflation adjusted basis. I guess one way to look at it is it has plenty of upside.

Gold is having a pretty good run too, hitting $1550 an ounce. But on a percentage basis, silver is doing better.

Edited to add both silver and gold are way down today, but the Dow is up over 400 points. We are finally starting to see precious metals rise and fall in inverse proportion to the Dow.