Anyone else feel the same way?
 

Since this alteration/trimming/fraud scandal broke in late May I have totally lost interest in collecting. I used to look forward to taking an hour or two each day to look at the major auction offerings, ebay listing of t206's, net 54 bst, etc. This fiasco has just ruined it for me. I haven't purchased a card in 2 months. I still visit this site but not nearly as much, I simply don't care much if at all anymore. I think I'll just focus on golf from now on. Anyone else feel the same?

Yes exactly the same...I sold 90% of my stuff.....put the big stuff away and will just enjoy the people I’ve met over the years...may great experiences and fun times the hobby brought me in the past....that’s what I’ll remember and cherish not so much the cards.

No

I had really slowed down in my purchasing the last few years as my focus is pretty narrow these days. I have been casually checking out Auctions the last few years but have not been terribly aggressive in anyway.

But I totally feel the same way! To me the essence of the hobby has been forever bastardised.

So I have returned to my childhood collecting Ways...I now have a binder of Yankees and a binder of Hall of Famer‘s. Im happy!

Yes! I don't think I've bought a card since then either.
In fact, I've sold off a lot of duplicates. I'm finding other areas to put my money. I'll probably come back to collecting, but I'm going to take a long break.

While I wait I am working on expanding my 80s and 90s rookies down to the next level of not quite good enough for the Hall lol. Not too worried on these purchases. Rolen (well maybe some day), Edmonds, Cone, players of that ilk.

I haven't lost enthusiasm for cards yet. But my hatred of the fraudsters, and honestly to some extent my bad feelings towards some of the people who defended them for years, have if anything grown.

I still think one can separate cards from the fraudsters, though it's not easy.

Opposite for me. Since the scandal I've ditched graded, gone raw, and have a lot more fun (and money). Bought a bunch of unikeep binders and pages.

The name of this is thread could appropriately changed to


Starting to downsize in preparation for my RIP condolence thread, but don’t get your hopes up. I may be around for twenty more years.:D

Unfortunately I feel exactly the same way. I bought one $30 card on a stink bid last week and that was the first purchase since this whole scandal broke. I do not go onto eBay on a (virtually) daily basis any longer; perhaps once per week.

I too am thinking more and more about golf, and have used some funds to upgrade a few clubs for my wife and I. It saddens me somewhat, but it is a little liberating in a funny way.

I haven't really changed much but my focus. I have been on a Wade Boggs bat kick for a while now thanks to Sean(JoeDfan). Also got into Eddie Mathews because Sean and I teamed up on a group of bats and I got the Eddie Mathews. Then I realized how great he was as a player so been adding some of his cards to my hoard.

Really need to greatly reduce the insane size of my collection that I have accumulated over the last 35 years. I am a hoarder and a procrastinator so not much has changed there.:)

Since day one I have considered PSA a scam. I have avoided PWCC and several other scammers for years. So this latest little bump in the road has had little to no affect on me or my collecting at all.

+1

However, I have lost all interest in/for PWCC and anything ever sold by them (as can be determined thanks, to among other things, VCP)

Although I'm certainly upset with all of the scandalous activity that is being exposed in the hobby, I am what you might consider a "low end" collector; most of the cards I'm after are not really worth altering. For the most part, I actively avoid graded cards in general, let alone "gem mint" cards, so my collecting habits are essentially unaffected. However, the high end cards that I have always drooled over but could never afford seem much less appealing now. I'm sure if I was, shall we say, of higher economic status, my collection would be much different and my outlook on the hobby would be greatly affected.

Yes. Lost enthusiasm for cards, haven't bought one since this broke. Not ready to sell yet although I have thought about it.

I wouldn't say I've lost all interest, but it's definitely waned. There were two snipes I set in the past week, on GavelSnipe as fate would have it, so they weren't executed anyway. I used to set about 25 snipes just for the PWCC auctions.

I've become a lot more cautious, (Earlier this year I passed on a card I needed for my project because it was authenticated by JSA. When other collectors I asked didn't feel comfortable with it, I let it go.) but I am still very involved and still check here/eBay/Mickey's/SCN frequently for new listings.

Just utilizing BST for the most part...

I have also stopped. I have not lost interest but instead shifted to working on a 91 Desert Shield set. I never bought from PWCC. I am more of an in person buyer at shows and on Net54 but many times I end up with a card that at one time went through PWCC. I'm actually waiting, maybe dreaming, for when there is a comprehensive list of altered cards that will be out there.

No it hasn't. Being almost exclusively a Mets collector, I already own most every Mets card, outside of some of the true rarities. The scandal hasn't affected me at all.

No

Not at all. I love cards. I'll always collect them and this will hopefully bring some of the prices down again so I can afford some better names again. I'm not in it for the money, just the cards. And mine are beaters, whether raw or graded. So my response to your question is no. I still love cards.

Well.....
 

I have had a "problem" with PSA for a long time in that I have seen how inconsistent their grading was - so I rarely if ever chased a card because of the holder it was in. That said, the recently uncovered information brings it to a whole new level! So, yeah, I am a bit disheartened and have backed off a bit - tossed the last couple of auction catalogs I got without opening them. I have purchased a couple of cards from PWCC in the past and consigned with them - sadly including a submission right before the story broke. Will not be doing business there again. Will still be collecting as I was before PSA and PWCC existed, just being much more cautious with any larger purchases in light of the scandal.

Nope,

While I haven't bought much recently I plan to, hoping to see some nice Fall auctions. Wouldn't mind some lower prices too when I'm buying!

I'm still recovering from my Ty Cobb RC purchases

Still buying. Just narrowing the focus.

Hobby
 

I am more disenchanted with the people than the scandals. I have found most of the “high level” collectors to be pretty petty and selfish. Typical I suppose in all the hobbies. Nonetheless my days doing this are numbered but trying to hang on.

I love collecting way too much for this scandal to pull me away from it. But it has served to re-reinforce the ‘buy the card not the holder’ motto.

There are a few cards in Heritage I am really looking to add - I certainly looked a bit closer at cards and a bit less accepting of what the flip says. But I am ready to spend to add to my collection and wouldn’t be upset if this meant slightly lower prices. Going forward, though I don’t expect any dramatic dip.

I actually feel like business has picked up for me.

Do any other sellers feel that way?

I've always had "- PWCC" in every single ebay search (plus Dean's, Probstein and Burbank) I do, so I have never had to deal directly with their crapstorm. Doesn't protect me 100% from bad cards (Maybe they sold them to people I eventually bought them from? Dunno. Hope not.), but as a pretty small money collector, I still love the heck out of collecting cards, because it allows me to live in the past and not have to deal with how ridiculous my 2019 Mets are.

I’m most likely done with vintage. I’ll probably keep what I have. I actually found myself buying some modern cards for the first time in many years. There are a few more options besides Topps, Fleer, and Donruss now.

I keep collecting, but eBay has gone down in selection and the prices....... As for auctions outside of eBay, I am seeing some auctions which have very few pre-WWII cards compared to the past. Obviously Heritage is one of the exceptions. After nearly 47 years of collecting with the last 30 being almost completely pre-war it is hard to put on the brakes.

There are many aspects to this, but one of the worst is the stress these bastards have caused --without giving a damn -- to decent people just trying to enjoy a hobby or to invest in something they like or run an honest business. If the government doesn't take some real action here, and seek to punish people, it's going to be a shame.

As someone I respect and have traded with, you hit the nail on the head for me as well.

I look at raw cards if any. I have purchased less than $100 after it all hit me what's been going on. I replaced fake cards with money clips.

I have been on a mission. I've picked up a few fake 14k gold coin money clips the past month. Just as bad as baseballs cards as an investment.:D I'm sick sick sick, but you already knew that. :rolleyes:

Like some others on the board, I collect low end, thrashed cards. I subscribe to PSA grading more for the encapsulation than the validation of the grades. I have done well on some purchases that by "market value" standards I have turned a profit, not that I would sell. I finished 3 sets that have taken me a good couple of years to acquire, all low grade, and now I am focused on 1940 Superman cards, because I love the artwork on them. I don't spend big money on cards, and I buy what catches my eye, all vintage, mostly raw.

When I was putting together my leaf set, I remember several times wondering how PWCC was getting all of those high grade cards, as I was buying my pin hole, dog chewed, trimmed by a 4 year old cards. There are crooked people looking to make a profit, off everything, not just cards, it is in every aspect of the world we live in. I see it for what it is, and continue to buy the things that bring me joy.

All that being said, a couple of years back, damn near 10 years ago, I put together a 1914 and 1915 cracker jack set with my father in law. A lot of the footwork was done on this board, and it is a bummer to hear that there are a bunch of collectors who have been turned off by the actions of a couple of crooks aka the state of the industry. I always enjoyed working with, and putting deals together with the members of this community, and hope that if you are gone now, you aren't gone for good. The people, and their stories, are just as valuable as the cards and in many ways make the hobby stronger, this too shall pass.

What Andy said
 

Describes me perfectly.

I'm curious if anyone who does feel the same way, that recent revelations have ruined things, could go deeper as to what has changed. I ask, in part, because while the revelations are dramatic, trimming, recoloring, etc. are not at all new; these types of scammers and bad actors have had a presence in the hobby for a long, long time.
The revelations are shocking and I am still frustrated that we have to deal with card doctors and this type of bad behavior. But perhaps what is even more frustrating is how PWCC has not seemed to lose much business despite the revelations. It's like a restaurant that people discover is serving rat meat instead of hamburgers, all while adding RoundUp and spitting on them before giving them to people. And yet customers still line up...
Anyway, I'm not going to let a few bad actors ruin my fun in the hobby. But my collecting goals are modest (to say the least) and my philosophy with buying any card is that I will make the purchase if I am ok with it losing all it's value and I can still enjoy it.

Not sure if a similar joke was made elsewhere, but I think a new sticker for slabbed cards is more than appropriate, indicating a card's provenance does not include a sale through a suspicious auction house/seller. It would be "Not Of PWCC Or Other Pernicious-Purveyors," or the acronym: No Poop. Who wouldn't want a slabbed card bearing the 'No Poop' sticker?!

There will always be people who alter cards. That's not going away. I trusted PSA to catch it and they failed. PWCC bought cards that were later altered. They worked with Gary Moser. Brent shilled auctions. Bobby Binder of VCP knows the data he sells (Brent's sales prices) is a fraud. He uses alts on various forums to defend himself. I can go on and on. It's a mess and hard to believe they're not all working together somehow. I guess my confidence is shot. I'd rather collect raw and spend the extra money elsewhere.

I feel the same, except for the golf :D

I'll be fishing.

One of the "detectives" at BO complained that the new VCP site makes it more difficult to use images there and evidently Bobby did not respond. Bobby also has not responded to questions about why, if as he says advertising revenue is insignificant to him in general and PWCC revenue even less so, why he continues to promote PWCC in light of all that's come to light. Perhaps these are oversights and Bobby will address them.

A lot less interest in the hobby but will continue to search Greg Morris Cards for raw set needs and upgrades.

Interesting that after all these years the "new and improved site" launches now.

Totally agree that many players in the hobby seem to be "working" together.

I haven't changed at all, just switching some things around. I don't collect anything high grade so it doesn't really change my decision making.

I will say that I kind of raise my eyebrows at the folks who have totally lost interest due to the scandal. Think we have it bad? You should look at art collecting, where fakes are more prominent and tougher to identify, and restorations are applauded!!

I think it frees a bunch of us up now. I dont care about $2000 card and am happy with PSA 2 cards etc. PSA means 'authentic' to me instead of a fake card. I also just look for hobby cards now.

If a card looks really nice, touched up or not i buy the card but not for the holder number. PSA A for years can sell for a PSA 1-3 range so now i am freed from paying bigger money as bigger money cards also had a chance to make a profit on but now i dont care about that due to whats going on. I just look for hobby cards now.

I always figured there were mistakes made on graded cards, but I now believe the percentage is MUCH higher than the 1 or 2% I used to assume.

And to make it worse, I'm now questioning the cards I already own that are in PSA holders. This card is a PSA 4. I admit, I bought the 4 not the card. I was at the National, saw it and bought it before I really looked at it. Now I just don't know. It looks funny to me. And now I know I can't trust these guys to catch the most basic card alterations that I foolishly assumed they would pretty much never miss. That's a game changer for me.

So, yes, it has made me even more jaded.

I'm wondering if other people have graded cards that they now look at and wonder.....

Attachment 359651

+1. My enthusiasm for the way I collect has not dampened; if anything I feel vindicated, like I instinctively chose the right path. I still collect like a twelve year old me when it comes to older cards: perfectly happy with stuff from the dollar box (aka low grade cards) because I get to have more of them and they can be in my easily-enjoyed binders instead of in boxes of slabs. The vast majority of my slabbed cards are those I submitted myself, so no doubts about them. I am very much looking forward to the National.

I guess the most surprising thing to me is that this many people collect high grade cards at all. My 1's and 2's are still looking pretty sweet and I'm not losing sleep over any of them.

Why don't you guys buy cards that look 100 years old instead?

Let me slip in a positive word for my LCS, Burbank Sportscards. They don't deserve to be lumped in with the PWCCs and Probsteins of the world: Rob and crew are as nice and honest as you could hope for. Their pricing can be high but they cater to people who want the card quickly and are willing to pay for the infrastructure to deliver it.

I love baseball and love collecting vintage cards and memorabilia, and realized from the day I got involved in this that there's a lot of shady characters and fraudsters. My love for this stuff is not dependent on some grade assigned by a TPG. So while recent revelations have definitely made me think about sinking big bucks into a small piece of cardboard that someone may or may not have worked over, it hasn't ruined the hobby for me. Just made me a lot more wary.
I have a wall full of framed stuff that makes me happy every single time I look at it.

Because for many collectors there is a rush having something that the best available, 1 of 1 or 1 or 2. Makes it seem extra amazing. Not limited to cards at all. Talk to a comic book collector or someone who collects beany babies, humells, or anything else.

Listen guys, I understand how you all feel and you have every right to be down about this hobby. This is still a great hobby and just because there are a few real bad apples that have committed fraud, should we punish all the honest dealers in this hobby? Absolutely not! I have doing cards for 55 years, 40 of them as a dealer, and I am always careful of what I purchase whether it is privately or on line because I resell to the general public. If I get hurt, the customer gets hurt. People still go to baseball games, even though some players try to get an "edge" by taking drugs. Well, you don't ban collecting cards and going to card shows because some of these cheaters that are hurting the hobby. Hopefully the ones that have been cheating for years, most will get caught & this pass by. However it will take time. Don't give up on this great hobby yet.

I agree with Darren on this. I can't speak for him but, for me, it's not a matter of their honesty, it's the fact that they use (or at least used to) stock photos for many of their cards. Stock photos SUCK!

People like to make comparisons across other hobbies but there isn't a comparison. Baseball card collecting is an area where low grade is not considered worthless or undesirable. How many times has the board echoed the mantra "buy the card not the holder"?

Bill, this will make me support guys like you Don and others even more. I can't give up on this hobby, I am too old and need something to keep my mind off of reality :). I am just going to concentrate all my buying from guys I know at Philly and White Plains and auction houses I trust (LOTG, Sterling).

Well said---I agree with you on the hobby and business. With all the graded cards in this hobby, it is a very small percentage of altered cards out there. Yes, it is bad what these guys have done and there are a lot more people doing this than we have mentioned. But I also have been selling cards for a long time and look forward to a Great National. I still am buying cards strong and if anybody wants to sell me cards, just let me know.

Every hobby has their issues. Just have to be careful. Saying you are done collecting because of this fraud is your loss. Plenty of cards out there that are still good.

I think the board did a great job of reporting and analyzing the issues presented. But, in the grand scheme of things it is a subset of cards in the vintage universe. I feel like some people have automatically dismissed the entire hobby and in my opinion that is just being ridiculous.

Who said low grade was worthless or undesirable? Just pointing out why for some collectors there is a tremendous allure of high end scarcities. Not all but some. Same reason people pay a shit ton of money for limited edition cars and watches.

It has decreased, but not eliminated, my enthusiasm for vintage cards. I honestly don't know if my enthusiasm will ever fully come back. It's not only this scandal, but the fake signed card scandal (which had no impact on me directly) and other frauds have left me questioning everything.

To each their own as always, but it seems as though the difference between an authentic altered card and these high end scarcities gets smaller and smaller every day. If that makes collecting more exciting, more power to you. You could probably get the same card at a fraction of the price if you bought it trimmed, especially if it's trimmed anyway.

As stated/posted in other threads (post war and elsewhere here). I have solely been speculating on Alec Bohm prospect cards. Possibly foolish but a lot of fun getting behind a player I am genuinely excited about.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f478942d04.jpg

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For those who are disgusted by what has happened with third party grading, but still want to collect, why not consider some other kinds of baseball collectibles? There are many interesting areas other than cards, and it's just a matter of finding something that you find appealing.

Not for everyone, but something to think about.

In the spirit of Warren Buffett....When people get nervous I look for buying opportunities.....
or Ex Chicago Mayor, Never let a crisis go to waste....when blood is in the water and the prices drop that will be the time to pounce... Pricing hasn't been effected yet.....

To me, it all goes into the old adage “if it seems to be too good to be true, it is”. PWCC getting 30-40% more than any other auction house always seemed very suspicious to me, so I steered clear of them for the most part. If I later find that I was shilled and lost some money then shame on me.

I also always despised PSA because their grading was IMO terribly inconsistent. I always stuck with SGC, whose grading was way more predictable and consistent. Not perfect, mind you, but seemed more honest to me.

I still love collecting but I guard against fraud at every turn. People being people, and with the current mindset in this country being grab for whatever you can get no matter what the collateral damage to other people, other countries, the environment, etc, I am extraordinarily careful.

I agree with this. In fact, I did just this a few months ago, prior to this scandal. My reasons had nothing to do with a bad sentiment towards the hobby, I had just gotten bored with what I was collecting. For me, I dove into signed checks (pretty hard to fake although it can be done), press photos and high grade HOF miscut cards. Since my passion is cards, I've had the most fun with the miscut cards. I buy what most people don't want and can usually pick them up very cheap. Here's a few that I've picked up so far. I don't think I paid more than $30 for any of these. The more miscut the better - I prefer to see part of another card - but it does have to be in otherwise very high grade condition. (If you have some for sale, hit me up :D)

Exactly, and I bet cards will seem much more ordinary (including high grade) after discovering other aspects of baseball collecting. At least it did for me.

Probably not trimmed...

https://photos.imageevent.com/bicem/...%20cabinet.jpg

public service announcement
 

Take the knowledge you gathered from the scandal
and use it to your benefit. Don’t get flustered or
discouraged. Do what you love and become sharper
through knowledge gained.

I sold out of pretty much everything a few months ago. I still collect e105s and kept a few sentimental items. I really enjoyed the hunt but going forward i'm having fun collecting raw cards of players that I like to watch. I doubt I will ever get back into vintage like i was before.

Buying as much or more for the sets I collect, as well as lots of high grade slabbed/raw material from reputable sources.

I will be at the National and buying pre-war & post-war cards, singles, sets, collections. Anyone wanting to cash in come to table #713, there will be buyers for many genre's at the table, all well capitalized.

Or if you prefer to auction your collection, that can be arranged as well.

Scott

"PWCC getting 30-40% more than any other auction house" ?

I must have missed that. Sure, there are many instance on PWCC where stuff seems run up very oddly, but on high end stuff I never saw them getting consistently any higher prices than REA or Heritage or even Goldin. In many many cases I've watched over the years PWCC is lower. The slick catalogs and write ups clearly drive lots of people to these top tier AHs who ordinarily might not be speculating in cards. One spot for Goldin on CNBC Power Lunch probably equates to 100 new rich guy bidders on Wall Street. If one has a real high end vintage card, you'd be nuts to sell that with PWCC.

PWCC might seem higher of course as they don't tack on a 22-25% vig.

I'm going to stick out from the normal crowd here when I say I collect exclusively high grade, however, I collect only one set. My collecting goals will not change.

I've bought several cards in my set from PWCC including my Banks rookie and needless to say, I'm confident my cards are unaltered. However, I've also been highly skeptical of a few PWCC cards in the past. Example, I passed on a very nice Mays 8.5 that I felt could have been trimmed. As it turns out, this card WAS listed as being outed by BO. When I saw it was outed I wasn't shocked but it was horribly upsetting that I considered bidding.

PSA missed the boat and that's not acceptable. This affects all auction houses and the entire hobby, not just PWCC! Cards turn over several times and I'm not confident Memory Lane, Mile High, REA, Lelands, or others will catch these doctored cards.

I started collecting pre-war over a year ago. I purchased about 50 T206's then stopped as I went back to collecting current (Trout, Acuna and a few others), and have now come back to buying T206's again. I am focusing on HOFr's for now mostly in the GD-EX range.

And exactly what makes you confident?

You do know they counterfeited those too don't you? If the pineapple is outside the border the card is quite possibly one of the fakes. Good luck with that set though. I've seen one that was minus the Chipper Jones Rookie, but felt the seller wanted full blown retail so I couldn't make a deal with him.

Precision micrometer for measurements over a extensive sample size, blacklight, and aplanatic-achromatic Loupe. I always check my cards over extensively as soon as I receive them, even commons.

All of which puts you miles ahead of PSA!

I agree. Anybody who has found this board has some basic knowledge to work with and the ability to learn more. Part of my enjoyment in collecting is expanding my knowledge and my skills in assessing cards. And there are limitless ways to collect - if these scandals made such an impact that it ruins things, there are opportunities to shift and find other niches.

I find it funny that everyone is so confident that their collection has escaped this wrath. Almost as funny as those who think no longer buying from PWCC is going to sheild them. This is just now getting out but has been going on for a long time. At this point these cards are all out there being bought and sold by unknowing, honest people other than Brent...even on the BST here. I'm not saying that denial can't help some people sleep at night, but it's delusion nonetheless.

We all unknowingly have altered cards in our collections. All of us.

But you can't be sure from just looking at online pics, and most AH's aren't going to accept a return if you deem a card altered using the above when PSA says different without compelling evidence like before and after pics. So then what do you do or what have you done?

All of us except me.:eek:

But on a serious note, yes, the infestation has spread far and wide.

Collecting
 

I think probably most of the people on this board have the collecting gene so your thoughts on collecting other things is probably what some people need especially after this fiasco. I’m sure we’re just scratching the surface as well.

Personally I’m very disgusted, a bit down and disappointed with what’s going on with cards with both the sellers and TPA. When I first started collecting I didn’t take much consideration about the condition of cards. Shoot when I was young I didn’t really even think about “oh no; this card is off center”. Since I’ve been collecting a while now I decided to upgrade some of my cards and purchased some in slabs. It hurts to know I may have some of those cards that are altered that I paid a premium. I haven’t given up completely like some, but I stopped purchasing graded cards completely at this point.

I think a lot of the lull people are experiencing is typical during the summer months. We get busy with other projects, Vacations, events, etc.
It's when the cold weather hits and cabin fever kicks in.

I bet it'll be business as usual for most by the winter season?
Especially if there are opportunities for good deals!