List of known Red HINDU's....can you add any new ones ?
 

Several email requests have motivated me to reprise my T206 information regarding Red HINDU cards.
The Red HINDU cards were printed and issued in Winter of 1910 (and very early 1911). It appears that
the 350/460 series Red HINDU cards were printed as "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards,
since these two scarce T206 backs have in common identical fronts.

Did you know that the Red HINDU's were virtually unknown when Bill Heitman published his book, "The
Monster" in 1980 ? Bill noted that only 6 cards were known. They are indeed very rare.....in my opinion,
almost as rare as the BROAD LEAF 460 cards.

So let us see your Red HINDU's. All posts are welcome regarding Red HINDU cards....and, certainly any
questions that you may have.


Example of 350/460 series card with Red HINDU back........


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/brownhinduredbk.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

28 confirmed Red HINDU cards in the 350/460 series (of a possible 57)

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
O'Leary (hands at knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (fielding)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (New York)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Example of 460-only series card with Red HINDU back........

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/150tannehill460.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/150tannehill460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


12 confirmed Red HINDU cards in the 460-only series (of a possible 46)

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummell
McGraw (glove hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat

The 40 cards listed here are accurate as of 4/19/10....if anyone on Net54 can confirm any more Red HINDU
cards....please post your input here, or email me at ......
tedzan11@comcat.net

Thank you,

TED Z

Ted, although its widely accepted that Uzit is tougher than RH, in your best estimation, how far apart are they in actuality? Would you say 2-1? 3-1? 4-1?

Well, considering that 60 subjects with UZIT backs have been confirmed to date, while just 40 subjects
with Red HINDU backs have been confirmed, I would say the availabilty of these 2 backs is comparable.


TED Z

That brings me to yet another question Ted. I often see you basing the relative scarcity of different backs as a function of how many confirmed subjects can be found on each. This would only be accurate if the actual print runs of the 2 different backs were identical, correct? For example, lets assume there are 60 known subjects with Uzit backs, and 40 or so known subjects with RH backs. If there were 100 of each of those Uzit players printed, and 300 of each of the RH's printed, obviously a random RH back would be far more common than an Uzit back. Does my reasoning make any sense to you?

Ted
 

The seymour throwing is on your list as confirmed red hindus. I have never seen one, seen a sale of one, or heard of someone who says they own one. Can you confirm how you know the seymour throwing has the Red Hindu back?

Jamie

Just came in the mail today. Lovely card!

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...r109/rh001.jpg

UPDATED list of Red HINDU's....show off your T206's
 

We have no way of measuring how many cards were actually printed of a particular back. But, we do have the
ability to ascertain which T206 subjects were printed (and therefore issued) with which backs. And, this has
proven over a period of 30+ years of tracking T206's, that it is a fairly accurate gauge in determining how rare
a particular back is.
The fact that UZIT's were printed later in the game (Spring of 1911) is indicative that these cards were perhaps
printed in lesser quantities. But again, I will reiterate, we have no way of factually knowing this.


TED Z

I never really wanted one of these until I had one!
Thanks,
Bob

<a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206%20Backs%20Line%20Current/?action=view&current=T206RedHinduDuffyBack.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206%20Backs%20Line%20Current/T206RedHinduDuffyBack.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 Red Hindu Duffy PSA 2 back"></a><a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206%20Backs%20Line%20Current/?action=view&current=T206RedHinduDuffyFront.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206%20Backs%20Line%20Current/T206RedHinduDuffyFront.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 Red Hindu Duffy PSA 2 front"></a>

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...inow12_1_1.jpg

They are neat.

Wonka
 

Hey John

A tough T206 subject with an even tougher back....now, that is what I call a fabulous front / back combo.

Thanks for posting "Red" (hindu) Kleinow.....how apropo.


TED Z

Thanks Ted, my one and only...but as Leon often says if you're only going to have one why not this one.

But what I really want is a Cobb Red Port with Red Hindu back.. :)

All joking aside love to find out if a Danny Murphy batting is out there...

Red HINDU Murphy
 

JOHN

I guarantee that eventually this card will be found. It is currently lying low due to the capricious whims
of the The Monster.

TED Z

Ted, I love that M. Brown red Hindu.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/4193145484/" title="T206 Blue Portrait (Red Hindu) by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2579/4193145484_1283b00066_o.jpg" width="900" height="761" alt="T206 Blue Portrait (Red Hindu)" /></a>

Still the reigning "best scan" champ...

Great card Jeff...:D

Jeff L
 

Beautiful Hal Chase / Red HINDU.

Until we find it's "matched pair", BROAD LEAF 460, this card stands as the toughest Chase front/back combo.

Certainly, tougher than my BROAD LEAF 350 Hal Chase.

Thanks for sharing it with us,

TED Z

Furthermore....re..T206 Chase (blue)
 

Hey Jeff L......et al

By my count, the blue Chase even beats out the Red Cobb with respect to the number of different backs.
The blue Chase has been confirmed with 22 different T206 backs.....it includes BROAD LEAF 350, LENOX,
and Red HINDU.
I expect that it will be found with a BROAD LEAF 460 back and a DRUM back.

Chase was NOT printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, nor UZIT.


The Red Cobb has been confirmed with 22 different T206 backs......it includes BROAD LEAF 460, DRUM,
and LENOX.
I do not expect it to be found with anymore T206 backs.

Cobb was NOT printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, nor Red HINDU, nor UZIT.


TED Z

Ted, if that card shows up with a Drum back....well, I just hope I'm solvent when the time comes. :)

Jeff L
 

My best guess is that perhaps the next DRUM find (out of St Louis) will have our "blue buddy", Mr. Chase.
So, you better start stashing your $$$$$ away now. I will not even try to bid on it, as you will out do me.

Most likely, your friends at Legendary will come up with the DRUM :)

I've seen Ron Oser acquire the two most recent DRUM finds. I refer to him as the "DRUM magnet".

How's about this deal.....you get the DRUM.....and, you don't contend with me when his BROAD LEAF 460
card becomes available ?

Regards,

TED Z

Nice
 

What is the best way to get drool out of a keyboard?...

You put it in the dishwasher and it washes it all away ;)

Done!

I've been thinking of starting on Chase now that Murphy is close to done... :D

Wonka
 

Welcome to the club.......now that Jeff and I have most of our blue Chase cards :)

Just don't go after the ones we're still looking for....you have to wait your turn :) :)


TED Z

UPDATED list of Red HINDU's....show off your T206's
 

Hey guys....anymore new Red HINDU's to report....or show off ?


Meanwhile, here's a thought-provoking question for any one on this forum....

Why did American Litho. use RED ink to print these HINDU cards ?


The subsequent HINDU T205 cards are printed with Brown ink.


TED Z

I think they went with red because they overcalculated the print run of the rare old mill overprints...and had some extra red ink?

Except for this one Ted. This is a perfect example of why I dont "blindly" agree with what all you "old time" collectors say in here. I like to actually research and do a little new thinking for myself.

http://robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/169.html

Is it possible for you to ask any question without the edge?


Ted is well aware of that Cobb. Very little in an REA auction slips by this board. It was discussed at length, in this thread last year.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...red+cobb+hindu


Right or wrong, Ted suspects that card has been tampered with. That isn't a new opinion for him. He felt that way before you became a big time collector.

Well, when an expert collector says no Red Cobbs with Red Hindus were printed....and then I find one that recently sold...whats a "dumb newbie" like me to think?

And the "edge" is due to the lynchmob mentality here. Something that will soften once you guys set down your torches and pitchforks im sure.

Read the thread.

If you had searched "red Cobb red Hindu" in the search function you could have easily found it yourself.

Instead you link to a recent auction, that was thoroughly discussed and attack Ted's credibility.

THAT...
is why we have what you call a "lynchmob mentality" We have already talked about it, but you wave it like it's new.



Don't get me wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking the question. I've asked Ted and others lots of questions, some of them, very dumb questions. In this case you could have phrased it better. Instead of terms like "blindly agree" and "old timers" you could have tried this:


Hi Ted. I noticed you were pretty certain that there is no Red Cobb w/Red Hindu back. I also noticed that one of them sold in last year's REA. Do you suspect there is something wrong with this front/back combo and therefore, this card? Thanks, in advance for your time.

Just read the 4 pages of that thread. There is nothing conclusive about Ted's assertion that the card isnt real. It may be re-backed, it may be legit. What I get from Ted's argument is that because he has never seen, in person, a Cobb with a Hindu back, they must not exist. Im not too sure i'd subscribe to that theory. Someone dropped 38 large on that card. I tend to think that the guy who spends that type of money may know something about what he is buying. Ted offered conjecture, hypothesis, and his opinion. The other guy offered a year's worth of the average person's salary. Furthermore, since that very public sale occured about 3 years ago, dont you think it would be known by now if the card was indeed altered?

By the way, that thread I linked was BEFORE last year's REA catalog came out, so it was well known in this community before that.

Mastro also sold it 10-11 years ago.

That "very public sale" occured on May 03, 2009, not quite a year ago. The thread I linked was from last January, BEFORE the REA catalog came out.

I don't know if Ted's right or not. That's not my point. The important thing is he's put a lot more thought and effort into tracking T206 than you ever will. Show some manners. He offered a lot more than conjecture.

And the first thing I learned in the high end of this hobby is that there is always someone with more money than you could imagine, who are willing to drop $38,000 on a card they think is rare.

It's not always about who has the most money. They are not always the smartest. Money doesn't always trump everything else. Hell, I heard the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks dropped $2.8 million on a trimmed card.

Did you know you can adjust your settings in the User CP to allow up to 80 posts per page instead of the preset number of 10?

My mistake on the dates of the REA sale. I saw the 2007 copyright at the bottom of the page....it sold at 38k last year. Let me try to learn something now. If the card has been in existence for at least 11 years (back to Mastro's sale) how in the world has such a high profile card escaped detection as being an altered piece? Is it just that each new owner spends mega bucks for it, then locks it away in denial....afraid to have it examined for genuine authenticity? I cannot understand this. What are your thoughts?

I do now....thanks for the tip. 10 replies always seemed a bit short to start a new page!

I think that's exactly what happens. Not every collector is really a student of the hobby. Most of this board's members will never spend $38,000 on a single card. But the percentage of knowledgeable collectors here is much higher than in the real world.

If you currently owned that card, would you prefer to resell it or take your chances that PSA will make you whole if it's rebacked?

"Let me try to learn something now. If the card has been in existence for at least 11 years (back to Mastro's sale) how in the world has such a high profile card escaped detection as being an altered piece? Is it just that each new owner spends mega bucks for it, then locks it away in denial....afraid to have it examined for genuine authenticity? I cannot understand this. What are your thoughts?"

Hey Chi-Town...are you familiar with the famous gretzky Wagner...psa graded 8? Talk about spending mega bucks...on an altered card! My thoughts are that many people have high grade...potentially altered, holdered cards in their collection. What good would it serve them to have them deemed altered/overgraded...and obviously quite less valuable? Surely a man with such an interest in finance can understand this?

If I bought that card (and I dont have that type of money), the very first thing I would do is to try to have it honestly analyzed for authenticity. I dont have the information on who/how this could be done, but I think there has to be some way to do so. If there isnt, then whats the point of ever buying another high dollar card ever again, right? I dont think I could ever be comfortable with such a card if even the slightest doubt was in the deepest region of my subconscience. Wouldnt you want it examined extensively for your own peace of mind?

I guess my biggest concern is this...How does Ullmandds, and presumably most of the members here know this information, but the guys who continue to spend mega bucks dont have a clue as to what they are buying??? How is such a "well known secret" kept when the hammer falls at auction?

Peter and I both asked about this card. Are you aware of the story behind it? It's going to be displayed in Cooperstown this year. MLB is happy. The HOF is overjoyed. The current owner is pretty proud. (Psst! It's hand cut from a sheet and trimmed. Don't tell!)

Do you feel the Gretzky party knew the card was sheet cut? Was that fairly common knowlege prior to the 2.8 million bid it realized? If the answer to both of these is "yes", then the market has deemed this type of alteration to be "market acceptable". However, I dont think it will ever be "market acceptable" to re-back a card....especially a card that may not have ever been printed in the first place!

So Jim...if it were your Cobb/RH, would you take all steps needed to validate/dismiss its authenticity? Or would you take the "head buried in the sand" approach?

Honestly...I think there are a lot of wealthy people who collect things...baseball cards for example...to whom 50K isn't much money...and whom probably don't really care that much to know the truth. These people probably don't spend their days on Net54 discussing the nuances of the hobby...they just put the card in a safety deposit box until it's ready to sell.

Chicago -

Con artists thrive on people that want to believe something is real so badly they ignore all the warning signs that it might not be.

If you spent $40k on a card would you really want to be the owner when it's found out not to be real? What's your upside for finding out it not authentic?

If you find out it is authentic you're no better off than you were when you started.

Ignorance can truly be bliss!

Edited to add: I'm not saying anyone is coning someone with this card.

Gretzky (and former LA Kings owner Bruce McNall) bought the card for around $450,000. If you note, the serial number on the card, it was pretty early in the infancy of PSA. They knew that grading this card would be great publicity. They were correct. It changed hands several times, at least 4-5 since Gretzky, maybe more. It went up in price each time. It is currently owned by the owner of the Diamondbacks. He doesn't seem to care that it may be trimmed. Interestingly, he also owns the companion Plank. That one is graded "A."

It's not market acceptable and never will be. But you don't need a wide market to sell that card. Just one buyer with deep pockets. I have no doubt it will continue to increase in value.

Whilst ( :) ) I might not agree with your approach sometimes, but .....
 

*

I definitely agree with your statement about Ted.
Ted is a nice guy, but he actually feels that if he doesn't see the card, it doesn't exist.
Facts, and anyones word is NOT good enough ... in his mind ... his assumptions, speculations and theories ... rises above all of that.

Maybe it went unoticed by his followers, but it was only two to three years ago that he discovered the Doyle error card.
Prior to that, outside of Larry Fritsch, the collecting world knew about the the Doyle error since 1987 ... Larry knew about it since 1980.

Until someone hit him between the eyes about the Doyle error card ... he was talking it down like he's doing to the Red Hindu Cobb.

If you notice, Ted will make statements about Bowmen cards ... but when it comes to tobacco cards ... they're mostly assumption, speculations and theories ... and when he makes a careless mistake ... he gets nailed ... this time by a newbie . :)

Pick up a copy of this book.


http://www.amazon.com/Card-Collector...1869352&sr=1-1


There are parts that will make you wonder why we all do this.

Jim VB,
I am pretty sure the owner of the "Authentic" Plank/Piedmont that appears nm/mt and comes from the same find as the Gretzky Wagner is not the owner of the Diamondbacks. I believe the Diamondbacks owner bought the PSA 8 Plank from Candiotti, but it originated from a different source.
JimB

Jim, I'm not trying to be argumentive, but .....
 

*

I know why I do it.

I'm a dumb ass collector that loves it.

I even went to your State of Texas for the 1990 National.

And being that we're talking about creative art.

My sole mission:

It was an attempt to warn the dealers about a guy named Danny Dupchek, AKA Dr Koos. ... he specialized in cards. :)

Macrae, and I looked for some of you boys, but I guess it was before you guys got into it.

What a waste of my money, and time, I shudda looked for cards instead. :)