At last, the boxing price surge???
 

Raising this topic because PWCC closes boxing regularly and some of the prices are stunners if real:

2013 Upper Deck Employee Precious Metal Gems PMG Mike Tyson /125 #EMT BGS 9.5
US $7,100.00

1999 World Boxing Magazine Manny Pacquiao ROOKIE RC #143 PSA 9 MINT
US $20,200.00
--are you kidding me? It went from $1750 in January to $20K in March??

1996 Merlin Sky Sports Foil Mike Tyson #217 PSA 10 GEM MINT
US $1,602.77
--from $600 in February to this today?

1987 Panini Supersport Italian Mike Tyson #160 PSA 9 MINT
US $3,800.00
--on a 2nd year card?

1986 Panini Supersport Italian Mike Tyson ROOKIE RC #153 BGS 9 MINT
US $12,000.00

1986 Panini Supersport UK Mike Tyson ROOKIE RC #153 BGS 7 NRMT
US $2,850.00

1966 Panini Campioni Dello Sport Cassius Clay Muhammad Ali #377 PSA 8 NM-MT
US $9,600.00
--holy crap...

1960 Hemmets Journal Boxing Cassius Clay Muhammad Ali ROOKIE #23
PSA 4 (PWCC-E)

US $17,366.00

1960 Hemmets Journal Boxing Cassius Clay Muhammad Ali ROOKIE RC #23 BVG 2.5 GD $5,488.00
PSA 2 GD $6,402.00
BVG 5.5 EX+ $18,705.00
PSA 2 GD $10,300.00

1948 Leaf Boxing Sugar Ray Robinson ROOKIE RC #64 PSA 6 EXMT
US $1,425.00
--The only PSA versions that have sold for four figures have been PSA 8s.

1912 Cohen Weenen & Co Boxing Jack J0hnson GREEN BACK #5 PSA 5.5 EX+
US $910.00
--actually seems reasonable for a dark-bordered easily damaged card.

1911 Boys' Friend Famous Boxers Jack Johnson #1 PSA 2 GD
US $1,060.00
--this has been a $300 card at best forever in this grade

1967 Panini Campioni Dello Valida Boxing Cassius Clay Muhammad Ali PSA 2(mc) GD
US $385.00
--Someone really paid this for a wrecked card?

1999 World Boxing Magazine Manny Pacquiao ROOKIE RC #143 PSA 8 NM-MT
US $3,483.00
--Another 500% in a month card?

1910 T218 Mecca Boxing Jack Johnson FRONT VIEW SGC 3 VG $610.00

1910 T218 Champions Prize Fighter Jack Johnson SIDE FACE PSA 3 VG $455.00

1973 Panini Campioni Dello Sport Boxing Roberto Duran ROOKIE RC #301 PSA 8 NM-MT $477.00
--Seems about right for the second greatest lightweight of all time.

So I decided to start auctioning off some cards. First few closed today:

1971 Panini Olympia #208 Cassius Clay PSA 7 o/c $355.00

1976 Panini Montreal #79 Cassius Clay PSA 5 $234.39

Lots of bids on each, too. I was pleased with the results.

Your thoughts??

Jack Johnson was the "GOAT" of his era in boxing... (5222) T206 Ty Cobbs in psa holders and there aren't enough to go around.... there are only (613 or 12%) T218 Jack Johnson cards out there... these cards have been under valued for decades!!! I picked up the 1912 Cohen Weenen PSA 5.5+ and thought it was a bargain!!! It doesn't surprise me at all to see his cards going up in price... they are still cheap in comparison to other cards out there.

Of course rarity is only part of the equation. Popularity plays an even bigger part of the demand, and boxing hasn't had nearly the demand. Where is all of this demand suddenly coming from? That's the only part I can't really figure out.

It's ridiculous and absurd, prices skyrocketing this much this fast are not the result of an under appreciated segment gaining greater interest or natural. T218 Johnnson's going up several hundred percent almost overnight for an incredibly common superprint is not a natural growth or newfound appreciation. He was heavily in the news and public consciousness in 2018 and almost no uptick happened; this isn't natural or a newfound surge in interest in old-time boxing or in Johnson happening.

I don't follow the modern guys but it looks about the same thing on them to me.

Cards are less and less about collecting and more and more about trying to print money via plastic slabs in which the cards themselves hardly even matter with every year, the 2020-2021 craziness feels like the result of this "collecting" approach. If the investors think they can make money by instilling a hype train and pump, they will. It appears to work well.

All very good points.

I'd like to think that people are suddenly awakening to how great boxing cards are but I don't see where the sudden surge of people paying these prices is coming from other than speculation on superstars. Look at the Panini Tyson prices: that's a common card yet even in lesser grades it has quintupled. The PMG is /125 and is a beautiful card as well but has been a few hundred dollar card forever. Slap it in a slab and it goes into the several thousands? I know they are condition sensitive but come on.

I suspect that a lot of the boxing pricing is circular: speculators selling to each other, probably because boxing is a cheap bet, relatively speaking. If so I imagine we will see lots of action on the biggest names and not much changing otherwise. That would differentiate it from the surge in baseball cards, which has been very deep and very real for a lot of vintage and postwar (forget the modern riverboat casino shiny stuff). If we see across the board gains, I will be a believer. In the meantime, maybe time to unload the Ali, Tyson, Johnson and Louis cards, let the speculators play it out, then repurchase after the crash?

I was an underbidder on your Clay Olympics. Great cards!

To me, the one who should be going through the roof is Joe Louis.

I agree with everything you just said 100%. It drives me crazy when people on Facebook groups talk about how such and such card was so undervalued last year. And that is why they have gone up 1000% in 12 months. Cards are only worth what somebody will pay for them. And they were worth a certain amount for years and years. And most just started climbing last summer. And most of these people just got into the hobby last year but they seem to know so much lol

I agree, Peter; happens to be my favorite heavyweight. He was as important an historical figure as Johnson or Ali but wasn't colorful, so his stuff is comparatively cheap.

In the context of the times, I have to believe the decimation of Schmeling was as big as anything Ali ever did.

I haven't checked but I also believe his string of successive title defenses still stands.

As the incredible Jimmy Cannon quote goes, he was a credit to his race. The human race.

I'd much prefer it be a reflection of a growing interest in the sport and its extensive history and great card sets, but I don't think the evidence supports this, sadly. I guess all the "real collectors" who didn't jump aboard with the 2020 hype train stand to make considerable profits by joining the pump, but a pump it is. Maybe it will crash, maybe the hype will be self-sustaining as it sometimes has been for sports cards (the entire Rookie card concept started as a pump by dealers to artificially inflate values on some cards, but has continued and continued to grow constantly for almost 40 years now). 'If you bull**** long enough, it becomes true'.

As a collector, I hope it crashes. I treat card collecting as beer money, I'm buying valueless pictures of men because I like the hobby, the research and pieces the little details of T card sets together, and collecting. I might sell a couple Johnsons in my dupe trade bait box, but none of my collection.

I would predict (and will probably be proven wrong) that some of the more common material returns to earth at some point (like the aforementioned superprinted T218 Johnson's, the insane prices on 1938 Churchman Johnson's of which there seems to be an EX+ condition copy for every person on the planet), but more difficult items may not. some % of pumpers will jump on board for a longer time, and there are many items with a very low surviving population. I would expect the pop report to explode, most boxing items just don't get graded because there hasn't historically been the "print money" attitude (key reason I focus on boxing) that has taken over the major sports card collecting. The modern guys may return to earth a bit less, as they have a surviving affluent fan base. Johnson is attractive to modern eyes as he was 1) truly great, 2) outspoken and has a fascinating story and 3) that story fits contemporary popular social narratives, but he lacks the living fan base of Ali, Tyson, etc. Baseball worships its history (and thus sustains Cobb, Ruth), boxing generally does not. I would think Ali has the highest chance of sustaining the growth.


I've thought for years that eventually people have to wake up and realize that a plastic slab and slip from a company that grades absurd numbers of altered cards and has been caught in bad business practices and inconsistencies too numerous to enumerate means absolutely nothing, and that the plastic multiplying a cards value 2x, 3x, 1,000x now for some cards is insanity. Thus far I have been wrong for decades. The pump seems to never end. None of this is in any conceivable way rational, which makes it hard to predict how this ends up.


I would say Joe Louis was priced about fairly pre-pump. He was a more valuable card, the guys driving bigger prices all doing so because of personality or modernity. Only Johnson and maybe Dempsey and Sullivan, I think, really outsold Louis, relative to period/population for guys before living collectors memory (his peak was before the memory of almost all surviving collectors). I value boxers more on ability than narratives, so I think of it as more that Ali/Johnson/Tyson are overhyped narratives than that Louis is unfairly forgotten.

I definitely think Tyson is an overhyped figure, and the specific generational placement of the newbies rushing into the hobby, especially for investment in this wave of whatever it is, buys into the narrative because they remember that baddest man on the planet stuff. The card sales would have us think he is second only to Ali, but all the sales in the world doesn't mean he is an ATG. I think he's #3 in his generation behind the guys who beat him, Holyfield and Lewis. The rest of his record are tomato cans, has-beens and never-wases. Granted, he messed up his prime years with jail, but then Ali was exiled for three of his prime years too and Louis lost prime years to WWII, so no excuses there. Also, if Cus D'Amato had lived, maybe the story is different, but he didn't and it isn't. Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Ali, they all would have beaten him, prime to prime. I also happen to think both Klitschkos under Emanuel Steward's training would have beaten him--styles were all wrong for that matchup. If I could pick a match I'd most like to see with Tyson it is Ali, just for the trash talking; can you imagine what Ali would have done with Tyson's voice and personal narrative? It would have been priceless.

The interesting thing, from my perspective, about the whole market situation is whether the price hikes will draw out really nasty stuff. It has been years since some of the tougher cards in the field have come to market. Normally, someone has to die or get divorced for it to happen. That's the difference with baseball cards and boxing cards: in boxing the known pop of so many issues or of specific cards in those issues is in single digits that they stand apart from the market. Tyson's RCs are pricey but easy; try an N386 Sullivan. Now, if anyone wants to trade my Tyson RC for an N386 Sullivan, drop me a line.

Great point. The issue of surviving copies is one I've tried to figure out (more T cards than N cards), but have made little progress on. In baseball, most of the big cards are publicly known I think, there are not many Wagners just sitting in a collection and not known to the broader hobby, they are so valuable that very few can really be hidden for long. You can then deduce reasonable guesstimates of the more common T206 cards, for example.

Boxing, I don't think this is true. The cards aren't very valuable historically, even the very rare old material. Very, very few collectors are active online talking about it (maybe 20 of us?), and most aren't selling the good stuff (there's much less incentive to sell an irreplaceable $1,000 card then there is an irreplaceable $1,000,000 one). Even a lot of my stuff is in a "hobby black hole", sourced offline from a collector who also doesn't share and got it from an original find, or I found 'in the wild' and haven't posted, etc. It's only a small number of us, those we talk too and know but are less active, and what appears on eBay/auction houses.

In addition, the lack of attention means, I suspect, that there are probably more 'sitting in a family attic' than there are Wagner's, for example. Most Americans know "old baseball cards might be worth $$$" to bring them out, but I'm not sure this applies to boxing and people have less of an incentive to sell great-grandad's collection of $10 T225-2's than they do T213's.

Makes it not too hard to do relative comparisons, but I've got really nowhere trying to figure out "How many E80 Jack Johnsons might be out there? Are there 10 T220 Silver Corbett's, or 50? Are there 200 Johnny Frayne's, or 2,000?" because I can't really deduce what % of anything is probably "known". We had 0 Donovan's in 2004, several decades into the hobby's existence as an adult thing, like 4 of them now. No clue how many actually still exist.

I hope this price raise brings them out, so far it seems more to have suppressed them than anything. Perhaps when people think this pump is at its pinnacle they will try to sell. They might be decent bargains too, so far the pumps appear to be on fairly common items, not the scarce stuff (I would think because the whole thing relies on having a fairly decent number of transactions and cards one can actually find to 'invest' in). There's a few I've been waiting plenty of years to have a chance at, may take a whole lot longer!

1960 Hemmets Journal Boxing Cassius Clay PSA 9's sold for $200,000 and $210,000 about a month ago.

Are those the current record prices for boxing cards?

Tyson thrives on the myth and Aura. For guys my age (40), we were old enough to understand and watch boxing but young enough to still see him as this kind of superhero monster. Even though most boxing people including myself know he was overhyped and Lennox/Evander were better, he was still the man and our superhero growing up. Now we collect the guys we grew up with like Hulk Hogan, Tyson, Bo Jackson,Griffey Jr, Michael Jordan etc. Outside Jordan these aren't guys who are all time historical figures but they are to us. If that makes any sense?

Not enough images in this thread.

Makes perfect sense to me. We all do it with our childhood heroes. Though in my case (Hank Aaron) he really is an historical figure.

You're right, Peter:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ing%20pose.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Siki%201.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Gum%20Ali.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...r-Pacquiao.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Tyson%201.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...377%20Clay.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Robinson.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20unk%201.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Louis%201.jpg

T218
 

Due to all the talk about the Johnson 218’s I figured I’d post a few pics. Looks like I’m going to have to try scanning these. Lol..

I've been collecting both prewar and post war since 1985 and got my first pack of cards in 1978. I kick myself in the ass for not being wise to boxing cards sooner. Prices are rising rapidly. I love the sport and have even competed in many contact sports(boxing, wrestling, jiu jujitsu and mma). However, this card is still wildly under appreciated and not only because its foreign, but because it is not Ruth solo. An amazing card with two of the greatest.

Just for the hell of it some more images. Nothing rare like Adam's just mainstream.

Mainstream, hah! Got the downpayment on a nice condo on Maui there, Peter.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...livan%20PC.png

1906 Winthrop Moving Picture Post Card of George Dixon vs. Chester Leon. Surely one of the most creative PC formats ever, it is essentially a flip book. Winthrops are known with baseball subjects but this is the only known boxer and only known example. Measures 3 5/8” x 2 1/4"

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...op%20Dixon.jpg

1920s Japanese postcard from a set showing scenes from the Daredevil Jack serial.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...n%20PC%201.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...n%20PC%202.jpg

Circa 1937 advertising piece for cosmetics products using Joe Louis photos as a promotional aid.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...oe%20Louis.jpg

This Slim Jim Bows mail reply PC shows Marciano pre-championship, dating the promotion to 1951 or earlier.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...m%20PC%201.jpg

Great Marciano postcard. Here's another. The guy who sold it to me said he was a family member and his name was in fact Marciano, he had a group of them.

Those are readily located. There are a whole flock of training camp Marciano PCs.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...er%20Press.jpg

This is my favorite image:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ciano%20PC.jpg

it comes in this standard PC size and also as a dinner-plate-sized monster from a different product Rocky shilled for:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...sized%20PC.jpg

I also like this one a lot:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...l%20signed.jpg

Signature hasn't passed authentication; JSA said it is Mrs. Marciano's.

Knock out
 

Attachment 449797

Attachment 449798TTACH]449797[/ATTACH]

Attachment 449798This Knock Out Packet per SGC dates back to 1908.

Can you make it bigger, Chad? Kind of hard to see.

Not sure I trust SGC on the date; they tend to put whatever someone tells them on the flips when it comes to obscure stuff. My guess is that the submitter assumed that the company's conversion to a limited company ("ltd.") in 1908 meant that the item had to be pre-conversion. That may not be right. Johnson won the title in December 1908. The image itself also may be 1908; needs research.

Still a beautiful piece.

Hi Chad,

Awesome packet! However. I have to agree with Adam. Why would it be 1908? It’s a U.K. product, Barratt & Co Wood Green London. Was it ever issued? I’ve researched this packet since I first saw it in Chicago. I still haven’t come up with anyone having one, seeing one or knowing about one! It’s awesome. But why 1908?

Hey Mark, been a while!

What I love about this obscure stuff is how much research needs to be done.

I don't know what that is. If I were to guess a date I'd say 1930's-40's. Barratt & Co. is a very well known British brand. I'd wonder why that hasn't surfaced before.

:confused:

Happy Birthday!
 

Happy birthday, Jack Johnson! In honor of Mr. Johnson’s birthday I figured I could post a few pics of some cards that you don’t see that often. It looks like I grabbed the wrong box. I guess we’ll have to settle for a few blank backs tonight. The Johnson W590 is rarely even talked about by Johnson collectors. I haven’t seen one up for auction in a while. I also really enjoy collecting the W-UNC cards due to they are often found on different stock. I have another that looks almost orange when photographed. The sad thing is they’re hardly worth the cardboard they were printed on.

Happy Birthday!

Unknown postcard
 

Adam, after seeing your Marciano postcard above it made me think of this Johnson postcard. Has anyone seen this postcard before? It’s obviously from 1908 due to the stamp on the back. I’ve always assumed the signature is a facsimile.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1617236401

I have some good news and some bad news for you. The bad news is that what you posted is not a Sports Co card; the dummies at SGC mislabeled it. The good news is that it is a very rare 1920s tobacco card from Thailand. Nearly every example of these cards, and there are very few (I had a partial set including the Johnson go missing in NY customs enroute from the UK about 15 years ago and still mourn the loss), came out of Thailand directly or via the UK. Here is my type from the set:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Milligan.JPG

And in honor of JJ's birthday:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0untrimmed.jpg

That Felix Potin 3 Johnson has been on a search list forever, wow.

Felix Potin
 

Peter, I picked the Felix Potin card up from an antique dealer in California several years ago. He actually had two series 3 complete sets.

Potin 3eme is an unbelievable set IMO. I stray OT but here are some I own. Imagine if they had included Babe Ruth. And sadly there is no Nijinsky.

I have one:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...Kahanamoku.jpg

I guess I missed his birthday by a day, but I'll post these anyway. I picked these up without really knowing anything about them or their value.

Great backs there.

Thanks. That's actually why I bought both, because I couldn't decide which one I liked the best. :)

Gotta have one of each or life isn't complete...

Peter, I really like the #391 Liston card above. It’s such a great image and one of my all time favorites. Sonny was a very interesting individual.

Yeah the juxtaposition of the pink and the menacing expression is compelling IMO.

Check out the volume of sales the past two days on EBay under PSA boxing. Incredible.

My Favorite is the "RC SP" 1991 Ringlords Ali in a PSA 6, below average condition for surviving copies, that sold for $22.50. You could get complete sets, in the box unopened, for $5 before this ridiculousness. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Muhammad-Al...8AAOSwAkRgZLhL

A PSA 6 Churchman's Tunney for $41, the price an EX-MT complete set used to sell for: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1938-WA-AC-...0AAOSw-A1c9fq3

I'm going to start saving all the slabs I crack open and sell them, since it appears the slab is worth at least 10x the cards.

Except for a few superstars, some stupid prices on modern and the usual questionable PWCC results boxing remains very reasonable.

It's not just boxing, but the same can be said about everything. Are there suddenly more Pele fans out there? More Messi fans? Are there more people watching Barcelona games on TV? :D Are there more hockey fans? More Gretzky fans? The answer is a big NO! It IS ridiculous and absurd - you got that right!

Now where the hell did you find that? I love it!

Ahh, the saga of the NX5s. The issue was known to Burdick since it is in the ACC, but never came up for sale. I do not recall seeing any examples in Burdick's collection at the Met when I went there to research. I know of three total accumulations, all surfacing in the 2000s. A quartet of the exercise cards came up for sale, as did a single specimen of a boxer. A large lot went in the Legendary Auctions liquidation of the Dreier Collection. That big group was won by them in an earlier auction.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20NX5%201.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20NX5%202.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20NX5%203.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20NX5%204.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...exercises.jpeg

My strong suspicion is that the few existing cards were carried back to the USA by American servicemen posted to the former US colony and sat for decades until those men passed away and their estates were liquidated. There is also one wrapper known, which I suspect made its way here the same way.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20wrapper.jpg

I would guess that whatever there was of these cards in the P.I. were destroyed in the war.

That is the only known Louis. I've posted it for sale on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/203342001750. 10% off if sold here instead.

In December, I was buying sealed boxes of Kayo cards for 10 bucks. Last night I saw them ending auction at 80. It's bonkers

They were going for about $160-170 or so for a brief period before they started heading back down.

I thought something funny was going on when I sold like 15 boxes off my website in a couple days span for about 40 bucks each..........and I thought I was probably high on them already. I jacked up the price right away just so I could hold onto a few myself for now.

I think people suddenly realized it's Roy Jones true Rookie card, even if it is really plentiful. So are all of Ken Griffey Jr's Rookie cards.

People are casting out for the greats in the various other sports as they are getting priced out of the Big 4 or 5 Sports.

The AW boxes from the same year have a great selection of old-time boxers and are probably more attractive then the Kayo cards, but there's no notable Rookies in that set, so are still pretty affordable.