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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I finally finished going through the REA and Mastro catalogs...<br /><br />and am I correct in counting FOUR N172 Old Judge McPhee cards up for sale?!<br /><br />FOUR!<br /><br />A lot of HOF collectors are going to complete their sets in about 14 days.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />PS - I wondered why one was selling for so much more than the others...<br /><br />but I see that it is the only TRUE rookie card of McPhee (from 1888) whereas the other 3 are from 1889.<br /><br /><br />(You can tell because the 1889 cards have the "CIGARETTE FACTORY" designation across the bottom)<br /><br />(The copyright dates on the Old Judge cards relate to the pictures and NOT the cards.)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Although I know some of you would prefer to pay a lot less and get the 1889 card since you think this "rookie" stuff is sacreligious! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think everyone should refocus their collecting interests solely on HOF rookie cards, don't you think? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I guess the difference in price between the McPhee cards will show whether the "ROOKIE" designation means anything in the marketplace.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hal- I can assure you that rookie cards are still actively collected. Whether collectors distinguish the copyright date on an Old Judge remains to be seen.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I collect Hall of Fame cards and I am not impressed by rookie card issues. I'll go for value over the "rookie" concept every time.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Frank- fair enough, not all collectors will pay the premium for rookies, but many still do.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Frank:<br /><br />Both points of view make sense.<br /><br />There are far more 1889 McPhees out there than 1888 McPhees (3 to 1 on the current open market)...<br /><br />so in your case, supply will be greater and you would get a rare card for a nice price.<br /><br />Conversely...<br /><br />the demand for an 1888 McPhee is greater (since rookie collectors AND non-rookie collectors would want one) and the supply is much smaller...<br /><br />so some folks are willing to pay extra to get a VERY rare card.<br /><br />Either way... CWYWC !!!<br /><br /><br />(collect what you wanna collect)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>It's too bad PSA and SGC never slabbed the Old Judge cards by specific year (1887, 1888, 1889) when it is very easy to do so by looking at the cards.<br /><br />I guess they were just lazy at first and lumped them all as 1887-1889... and now it is too late to change.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>Minor correction Hal, nothing that hasn't already been posted by Jay, others, or myself . . .<br /><br /><b>The dates found on Old Judge cards cannot be trusted at face value to date either the card OR the photo.</b> Let’s take Dan Brouthers for example, all his 1887 cards have an 1887 date. His 1888 card of the same pose(s) are dated 1888 on the card. His 1889 card, again same pose but now denoted as playing with Boston is again dated 1888. So his 1887 cards are properly dated 1887, matching both the date the photo was taken and the card itself. His 1888 cards are dated 1888 which correctly dates the card but incorrectly dates the photo. His 1889 cards are dated 1888 which incorrectly dates both the card and the photo it is based off of.<br /><br /><CENTER><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1176600752.JPG"></CENTER><br /><br />When reading the date off an OJ card, the only thing you can be sure of is that the card was issued during or after the year found on the card. For example, if you find an OJ dated 1889, you can be sure it was issued in 1889 (or possibly a rare 1890 card). The photo however could have been taken years earlier.<br /><br />Also, it is generally accepted that certain N172 OJs were first produced and distributed in 1886 (script & possibly some of the short numbered cards). So the run actually spans 1886 - 1890.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I noticed the four Old Judge McPhees too, along with the Cameo Pepsin. I knew I made a mistake when I shelled out a fortune for mine. Lesson learned. When common sense tells you that a card isn't really that rare, don't overpay. Wait.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Paul:<br /><br />Is yours from 1888 or 1889?<br /><br />I don't remember seeing many from 1888 for sale. The few that I remember seeing in the recent past were from 1889.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>It says "cigarettes" but not "cigarette factory".

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Bravo!<br /><br />Then you have the real rookie 1888 version!!<br /><br />What pose??

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>For full disclosure Hal, do you have a McPhee in the auction? If so, I missed that admission. If not, fine. But if you do, isn't this just a blatant attempt to pimp your card?</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think there are board rules against blatant advertising on the front page of the board......Hal- do you have a McPhee being sold in one of these auctions? If so why did you start this thread? Was it to talk about one of your cards being sold in order to get it more attention? I think these are fair question(s) David is asking?<br /><br />edited to ask 1 more specific question- Hal- is the 1888 version yours that you are auctioning?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>This thread, like almost all of Hal's recent posts, has the same feeling to it-a desperate attempt to call attention to his consignments. Not making light of Hal's situation but he should have considered using Steve Verkman as the auction house of choice. As with the write up of the 1930 Goudey Ruth Calendar, Steve loves to use people's personal misfortunes in the descriptions as a means to generate more bids. Maybe this would save Hal time in having to come here and hustle Net 54 members.<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>It sure had me fooled, I thought it was just another academic discussion about "true" rookie cards.<br /><br />Then again, I was fooled by the discussion of the Toleteros Josh Gibson being the equivalent of an Upper Deck tribute card, so what do I know?

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Does this lot belong to any of our members??<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20 Information&LotIndex=70432&LastLotListing=Lot%20Se arch%20List&CurrentRow=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20 Information&LotIndex=70432&LastLotListing=Lot%20Se arch%20List&CurrentRow=1</a><br /><br /><br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Not mine, I sold mine a while back.<br /><br />Like I said, I only have a few things in these two big auctions and they are things that you guys will all recognize (1864 CdV, 1894 Betz cabinet, Alleghany cards, etc.)<br /><br />The BULK of my stuff is actually being sold off on EBay and/or auctioned off later by Barry Sloate.<br /><br /><br />Here are the things of mine he sold last week:<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&sinc e=30&userid=harrywright&include=0&rows=200&sort=3& completed=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&sinc e=30&userid=harrywright&include=0&rows=200&sort=3& completed=1</a><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>let's wait for hal's response before he's burned at the stake...shall we.<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Just curious how did you know a month in advance the card would be in the auction then?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1173308517/last-1173359886/Re-+Anybody+else+been+offered+a+Bid+McPhee" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1173308517/last-1173359886/Re-+Anybody+else+been+offered+a+Bid+McPhee</a>-

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>As he stated, Hal has chosen me to sell a bulk of his collection, so please don't crucify me if I choose to stand up for him.<br /><br />He has put the whole project in my hands and has been outfront about it. And it is true that he has only a couple of items in the REA sale.<br /><br />How about we just call a truce here. If this is not Hal's McPhee, as he said, he is being unnecessarily attacked. And if he is concerned about the status of the rookie card market he has every right to be since he has a financial stake in it. This is getting blown out of proportion.<br /><br />And for the record, Hal, the rookie card market is alive and well.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Is Hal selling EVERYTHING?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Cat, you want to go halfsies on the Wagner? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Peter:<br /><br />Because the board member who bought my McPhee (and a lot of other great cards) told me that he would be putting it in Mastro. He didn't really need my McPhee, but it was part of a large "package deal."

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Jeff:<br /><br />It would have to be about 90/10 with me being the minority interest. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>Because the board member who bought my McPhee (and a lot of other great cards) told me that he would be putting it in Mastro.</I><br /><br />So it seems Mr. Lewis has started a thread touting a card he sold to another collector and that collector has now consigned it to Mastro. How convenient.<br /><br />Frank

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>Thanks for the clarification Hal. Some of us recognized a lot of the cards in the Mastro auction as being yours. We didn't realize you had already sold off so many of your cards.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Well the good news is that we won't be hearing too much more from Hal until Barry's next auction.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>What's the crime here? Hal mentions that in the current auctions there is a mini-glut of a card that he no longer owns. What's wrong with that?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Frank, it does grow tiresome after a while, doesn't it?

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Dave Bowman: Hello, HAL do you read me, HAL? <br />HAL: Affirmative, Dave, I read you. <br />Dave Bowman: Tell me if you own that card, HAL. <br />HAL: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that. <br />Dave Bowman: What's the problem? <br />HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do. <br />Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL? <br />HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it. <br />Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL? <br />HAL: Dave, although you took thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move. <br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>