Small Traditions LLC/SCANDAL UPDATE
I've never dealt with this guy directly to my knowledge...David Lawrence Thorn...Have you?
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1345291 |
I’ve won 1 thing from one of his auctions... luckily it was a “ hand cut” card by designation anyway.
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They even tried to warn people with the company name...
EDIT: Reading the thread is so depressing. Just when you think you've come to grips with the situation it keeps getting worse. |
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Some indictments might slow things down.
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I believe I spoke with him briefly once after winning an auction and paying before updating my shipping address. Nothing related to these accusations. He did make the change and shipped the card out quickly. I no longer own the card.
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PSA is Teflon...they will never be held accountable or liable they only offer OPINIONS
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Wow. Trimming Lionel Carter cards? Nothing’s sacred anymore.
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I hope he pays out the few consignors he had. A buddy of mine passed away and the person handling his affairs opted to go with Dave at Small Traditions to sell his collection. The proceeds are supposed to go to his only child his surviving Daughter. I didnt like the way they auctioned off most his stuff as they made up huge wholesale lots and gave a brief description along with a picture or two.
I heard Small Traditions was going to grade a lot of cards, but then I see many big lots were not graded and all raw. Wouldn't surprise me, if the winner(s) of some of these lots all knew most cards were mint and ripe for grading. A lot of his collection he obtained in the 90s and early 2000s. My buddy didnt like grading, as he was an excellent grader, without having someone else's opinion. I hope everything works out where his Daughter and other consignors are paid. |
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I hate to say it, but when an auction does that they are usually going to buy the lot themselves and then list it properly. Mastro was known for this. |
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Small Traditions is the AH that we all chewed out a few months ago (and a few years ago) about their email that suggested they get a chance to talk to PSA graders to review the grades they felt were unwarranted. I remember that thread getting revived a few months ago. I’m not sure how many actual consignments Small Traditions actually get given the number of items purchased by David, trimmed, and then auctioned off via his AH. What a shame. |
Yeah I have one guy who helps me as a subcontractor. He isn't allowed to bid on lots he works on. I don't ever bid on a lot I'm selling.
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reviewing cards
Something I said back then makes as much sense today..
Sometimes when ya' sit back and think about it, resubmitting in a holder shouldn't be allowed. If you want to resubmit you have to crack it and send it in. And all submissions would truly be anonymous to the graders. Whatever it gets it gets. That would seem more arms length than submitting in a holder and not being able to go down in grade or arguing, especially in person, for a better one (admittedly I have done that and rarely succeeded . ) . |
It's amazing to see how many trimmed Exhibits and postcards are going through Small Traditions, then compare it to the grades that the PACK-PULLED Exhibit cards submitted through Vintage Breaks that mainly get EX-MT 6s straight from cello packs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-SwEMvt7fw |
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There's nothing amazing about it any more. These grading discrepancies have become predictable and expected. But keep right on submitting, people, as you never know when that miraculous 10 might "pop" for little old you! |
PSA is not in on the scandal.
The people trim the card and PSA just grades it. You guys really make me laugh! |
PSA is TEFLON WILL NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR RENDERING THEIR OPINION
MONEY TALKS AND BULL SHIT WALKS Sure It’s rigged always has always will be EVERYONE KNOWS THIS ITS ALL PRICED IN ......sometimes you just have to go your own way....the time to sell is now |
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PSA is incompetent and until this year, hasn't claimed they've ever blocked a submitter for submitting vast amounts of alterations*. Knowingly accepting submissions from Gary Moser for 15 YEARS after knowing he submits trimmed cards makes them LIABLE. If you don't think PSA isn't in on the fraud, you aren't reading enough of the threads. *To my knowledge. I would love to see evidence that they've blocked card alterers in the past. Would love to see the list of all the people blocked for fraud purposes. I have been blocked for complaining about their sorry POS company online. There's probably more people on my list than those that are actively defrauding collectors. It's all part of the cover up, right? I would love to see their block list and the reasons each person was blocked; at least the "NEVER GET CHEATED" company would warn all of us about fraudsters, right? |
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If I’m a shareholder or on Board of Directors, I would be working to replace the CEO ASAP.
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No, no fraud in either... :confused::confused::confused: Only in some fantasyland. Both have had constant frauds going back well over a century. If I looked hard enough I could probably find a coin fraud from the middle ages. Or not so long. Jean Cavino and Alessandro Bassiano were forging ancient coins and selling them as real in 1540. More here, Assuming it takes you to the right page (404 onward) https://books.google.com/books?id=jV...0fraud&f=false |
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PSA is NOT in on the scam you sound silly. What would be in it for them? Same reason a casino does not need to fix there games it is already fixed why risk anything? mJD |
I'd almost prefer it was some sort of fraud ring inside PSA. Overwhelming incompetence is not a reassuring substitute.
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Chris Collins (Congressman about to serve jail time) has had some of his Mantle cards exposed in this one. I'm am cataloguing them over at Blowout. One of our board members bought a trimmed matchbook from David Thorn.
And Peter Spaeth seems to be concerned about the fake provenance being given by Thorn to make it look like these cards came from some advanced collection rather than being purchased by the auctionhouse and submitted through PSA in order to falsely put the card at arm's length. If you are appalled at this fraud, the website to submit a complaint to the Colorado Atty General is around page 25. |
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...345291&page=26
WTH!!! PSA you’re a complete fraud Look The before And After of the last Yankees Exhibit Card. The guy siting on the right look at his sleeve on the 4 then the 8.5 he cut his arm/sleeve way off and PSA misses this ?? yogi too on the left sitting cut his knee off wtf OH BULL S they missed this....look at penciling of the corners on the top right corner. WOW unbelievable This is sick they ought to be ashamed of themselves |
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This came off a different forum.
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Psa
Somebody might want to alert PSA to this thread (no I don't think PSA is "in on it") as Small Traditions sponsors one of their Sweepstakes
https://www.psacard.com/sweepstakes?...s_january_2020 |
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https://web.archive.org/web/20200119...-boda-exposure
Oh, PSA is well-aware of how their pants are down in this scandal. But feel free to bring it up to them and have your submission privileges removed... ;-) They keep their message board like the Chinese version of Google. Edit: And it's funny that they keep deleting posts. They should realize by now any juicy thread like that will be archived in the wayback machine to prove just how much they want to continue cheating their customers from knowing the truth. |
Most people knew this guy was a huge Jeter Collector. It wasnt a surprise when every auction had a slew of jeter inserts etc. I thought it was common knowledge he was selling his own cards. Now the rest, certainly makes a fella think. Faking provenance, sound like the latest craze
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In case you missed Post #277 by auburn35, this is pretty damning.
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It’s very sad but this is all priced in people know what they’re getting into now. Nothing is going to change
PSA WILL NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE/LIABILITY THEY ARE JUST RENDERING AN OPINION PSA IS TEFLON I see bigger numbers and larger profits from PSA card grading division this year.......they’re the best industry leading authority ......... They know to keep quiet this will pass as it always has. We have never seen third party grading more needed and stronger, we are the best number 1 trusted in the industry Remember we are just a few malcontents on a couple of message boards.....that’s it. "...we don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with." Joseph J. Orlando, CLCT earnings call. |
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The crux of this whole problem is collectors’ desperation to believe anything they have to in order to feel good about a piece. It’s like dating a former porn star and convincing yourself she’s only been with you. The human brain can quite easily convince itself of anything it wants to. |
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If you want to see the problem, look in the mirror, then do something about it like STOP feeding the effing scammers. That's all it takes to stop this is for morons to stop supporting it already. People are inherently stupid, especially baseball card collectors like us. We need to stop with all the "popping" and acting like a 3 year old child on Christmas morning. It's an ugly look, really. Instead, collectors feed the scam by continuing to support them. Where in the hell do you see grown men get their heads handed to them and enjoy the financial butt plugging? PSA management doesn't even want to address it with their customers.:D In what world are we living in where a company can bilk their customers in a billion dollar scam and other blithering idiots keep supporting them?...AND THEY DON'T address it? I am and have been dumbfounded on how people are letting it happen in all honesty.:eek: |
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You can still love the hobby, the cards and memorabilia that make it great.
But you can also hate what they’re doing to it. And is it better to be quietly cheated and defrauded? Or to be vocal, stop submitting, and take other actions that will negatively impact these criminals and corrupt entities that perpetuate this massive scam. |
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There are boogers all over this. |
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X 15 guys (Minimum) for 15 years minimum. Add it up. That just from one imbecile. This guy Brent Mastro. Here's how it'd done Bobby so (WATCH THIS) https://youtu.be/8e1lwt7E29k STOP WITH THE POP DOPEY |
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Where's the thumbs up emoji? |
The cover up continues. PSA revoked my website account so I can no longer notify their customers who bought altered cards through the set registry. And there are still people who think PSA is not complicit in the fraud?
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Turnaround times have never been longer even after staffing and building upgrades. Maybe they downsized and didnt tell anyone :rolleyes:
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All this Stuff HAS to be on SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS MEANING ALL THE BASEBALL CARD SPORT CARD RELATED FACEBOOK GROUPS BUYING SELLING VINTAGE CADS ect TOBACCO ROW TOBACCO CARD COLLECTORS 99% PSA AND MANY OTHERS INCLUDING THE RAZ GAMBLING FACEBOOK GROUPS AND AUCTION GROUPS TO INCLUDE TWITTER/instagram ect.... Also A booth at every major card show set up next to PSA and other TPG grading offenders exposing with big screens their thousands upon thousands of altered cards in there holders |
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John.... sorry to hear they actually did that to you. Their complicity in this scam is now pretty much a certainty. Just be sure to focus your efforts on other platforms that will reach the greatest number of people. PSA can't squelch this if we don't enable them. |
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Ben |
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PSA is as corrupt a company that there ever was and should be shut down for fraud. The constant censorship and ZERO interest in addressing an fixing their faults is nauseating. Doing nothing but catering to their fake dealer network that helped spread the scam like a Chinese Moronvirus.
Easily a 2 billion dollar fraud after some recalculation. This is the biggest scam in the history of sports cards. Such a funny joke at the collectors expense. I wouldn't buy a thing from this horsey face dickwad or anything from PSA. |
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intersting PSA job description for graders. Why do they need to have good people skills when they are supposed to be unbiased and just look at cards privately?
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That's a pretty basic boilerplate job description and set of skill requirements.
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I agree 100 percent with Bobby. You are probably in reasonably close proximity to other graders and getting along is very important. You don't have to be best friends but you do need to be courteous and nice.
Based on the description, I suspect PSA also wants some collaborative efforts so a grader can tell other graders if they see something they don't like. Let's not read more into this than we have to. The person who said this is a boilerplate job description is probably dead on. Rich |
The answer is always money. :) I wasn't a submitter (maybe a few a year) to TPG's anyway. Good luck to those that do.
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I'd be the one asking when the card flipping contest was and which type it would be.
And probably get fired for skimming a trimmed card across the cube farm |
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Hard to believe!
Can you believe that people are still consigning and people are still bidding in his auction? Why isn't he in jail?
Winter Premium Auction Now Open for Bidding Inbox x Small Traditions LLC via icontactmail1.com 6:38 PM (2 hours ago) to me Greetings from Small Traditions, Our Winter Premium Auction is now open for bidding and will run for the next two weeks, closing on Saturday night 2/29 with a lot-by-lot 30-minute rule beginning at 8pm PT (11pm ET). As always, please don't hesitate to call or write with any questions, corrections, or suggestions. Thank you for your support, and happy bidding, Dave Thorn & The STs Team |
It is truly disgusting. Perhaps a combination of 1/3 unmitigated gall, 1/3 arrogance, and 1/3 a sense of invincibility. This clown has been getting away with it for so long (with no ramifications or consequences) that he thinks he's infallible.
A proven card trimmer and fraudster, caught dead to rights. Yet the sheep keep flocking to the well, to be ripped off even further. |
I skip right over the slabbed cards. I find I get the best deals by purchasing raw cards. If it has some slightly rounded corners, I know it has not been altered. Plus they are about 5x less for the exact same card minus a crappy slab and "opinionated" grade. Penny sleeves and top loaders are plenty of protection for my ex-ex+ vintage collection.
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Also if I find a card has been trimmed, I can contact the buyer and 90% of the time I get refunded. Or I am out a measly $10 or $15.
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People may not be consigning, it is probably his trimmed collection. I had to laugh when I recieved the email about the auction. The audacity of this guy is beyond belief. Faking provenance is about 6 feet below a snakes belly.
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One example of a card I follow is this card. Sold for 1955.00 in Small Traditions and then it pops up in PWCC and sells for over 3k https://smalltraditions.com/LotDetai...entoryid=45306 https://www.ebay.com/itm/1992-Little...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT |
Alternatives?
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Where do you and others suggest as an alternative for vintage and newer? |
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1. BST on Net54 (Free and many collectors see it) 2. Sterling Auctions (Anything really) 3. Heritage (Higher dollar items) 4. Hunt (Post Cards/memorabilia) 5. Huggins & Scott (newer stuff including minor league) 6. Brockleman Auctions (Especially booklets/papers/magazines) 7. LOTG (Type cards/postcards/photos) 8. REA (higher dollar items especially 19th century) 9. Clean Sweep (prewar items including obscure) 9. eBay seller that comes recommended from here. More fees involved in this option. If you consign, ask to have sellers fee waved and make sure you know what they are charging the buyer for fees. Plus make sure you like the way the auction closes. If some/all your items need grading, then negotiate the grading cost upfront. |
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Pwcc
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In the past few years, I have sent two lots to PWCC. I would say that roughly 1/3 of the items sold for well above my expectations, 1/3 sold at for what I expected, and 1/3 sold for under what I felt I could have sold them for myself. I think that PWCC's perceived sold prices are specific to certain items, and the high prices don't carry through on all items. The same applies to PSA cards. Some prices are higher, especially on modern cards, but for lower end vintage, SGC seems to prevail.
The advantage is that PWCC's consignment rates were under what I would have paid eBay and PayPal if I had listed them myself, plus, I didn't have to scan, list, or ship. I am not going to consign to PWCC again because of the integrity problems that they seem to be having. It has been 20 years since I submitted to PSA, but I do send small orders to SGC once or twice a year. I have 8 PSA cards in my collection and I am thinking about breaking them out of the PSA slabs and either keeping them raw or sending them to SGC. I would mostly agree with Jay Cee's list, although some of the companies on the list are having their own problems with passing along trimmed cards, or they have problems with shipping charges, etc. I would also add Birmingham Auctions to the list of good guys. :) |
LOL, thanks Rick. :)
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I bought a memorabilia piece from them that they specified as a specific piece. After receiving it I tried my own research more and couldn't confirm anything from the item description. When I contacted HUNT's with the conflicting information they told me essentially "that is what our consignor told us". So they took the work of the consignor with out any bit of research and fully relied on that info. When I asked if they could provide more providence, they told me the consignor didn't have anything to provide. I haven't bid with Hunt since. The item was so cheap that I let it go, but they lost my trust. |
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They seem to always have a ton of stuff and the starting out bids are low. Their signiture or Platinum auctions are better than their monthly ones on all levels. They been around for years and most buyers know of them. Agreed they should not have used a "consignors word" on a description unless noted. Still, they move a lot of items and from almost any decade you want to collect. Im sure I left many AHs out of my list as I was just firing them out, as I was thinking of them. Ive never delt with Birmingham auctions, so I didn't List them... Nothing personal. |
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