Can anyone honestly say....
 

Been challenging my assumptions recently about card collecting, prices, etc. (for example that 80s cards were basically worthless due to oversupply//modern artificial scarcity not sustainable--which they seem to continue to break glass ceilings) and thought maybe I should do the same with this one....

Can anyone honestly say that you've built a vintage set (70s and older) brick by brick, lot by lot, filling in singles here and there, etc. and were able to later resell a complete vintage set HIGHER than the dollars you put into it?

I've always thought (and still believe) that building a vintage set (from a financial standpoint only--not the joy that comes from it) is a losing proposition, i.e. the sum of the parts is LESS than the whole.

Anyone care to agree/disagree? Thanks! -Pat

Nope, and that is probably the reason that I never keep track of the dollars I put into it.

I do believe however that it can be done if you are diligent about buying larger lots and selling off the extras. I think you go from black to red once you start buying individual cards, especially with all you'll lose on shipping.

It’s a unbelievable with the recent phenomenon of modern sportscards especially basketball where seem hitting new highs and now vintage basketball. Basketball has a global following and the sportscards market are still exploding.
I started modern in the late 80s and 90s basically from wax whatever you can buy on your local card shop and shows. Back then, vintage was untouchable for me because of price relative to modern such as Mantle, Aaron, Musial, Cobb.
I sold off basically all my modern cards around 1999-2000 because I was unable to keep track of all the new issues and turned off by the serial number cardsI then began buying post war then pre war cards subsequently took a hiatus from 2000-2007 due to newborn. I got back buying prewar 2007-2009 and set off another hiatus due to career until 2016. I was blown away by the modern pricing especially the Exquisites and National Treasures issues coupled with the Gem Mint chase. I never understood the “self-made” scarcity of serial number and Gem mint because pretty much all new cards are straight to protectors then off to grading companies so began to understand anything under a Mint label is almost worthless. But the scarcity in serial number chase /50, /25, /10 support the chase.

If history repeats itself, vintage really ensures times of bike flipping, garage sales, house moving; you get my point should stand tall once again. In a way, vintage basketball is now off to the races especially some records may or will be broken such as all-time points by LeBron James. (A disclaimer I am not a LeBron fan nor own any of his cards simply because not a fan of Super Team).


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Well, my feeling is, if you put a set together over the years, brick by brick, and it gave you great joy, why would you want to sell the set?

I took a long break from collecting - about 40 years - from 1978 until 2018. I really didn't keep up with what was going on in the collecting world. My whole feeling about the so-called "junk wax" era is that those cards may be junk to collectors who are in it for the money. But those cards were just as important to the kids collecting them, as 1950s cards were to kids collecting them then. If you're into collecting the cards, they should have just as much meaning as any other, if you liked those players, liked the designs, and like baseball.

I recently put together a 1951 Red Backs set in Poor-Midgrade condition and DID make a very small profit ($10-20) when I did sell. I did take my time on it and found many cards here, on eBay or COMC for <$5/shipped.

I think its super, super hard but not impossible (and easier to do on smaller sets)

I have built all the Topps, Bowman and Fleer sets ungraded. I have been collecting since 1957. Agree with Patrick that neither myself nor my estate will realize much over what I have put into those sets. Some of the Topps test and insert sets are likely worth more than I paid. But whatever they bring will be a big bonus for remaining family.

I have never sold a set, other than a duplicate 91 Topps DS set, and accumulated cards as a hobby rather than investment.

I feel it's about the journey, not the destination. Why would you finish it and keep it on a shelf to collect dust, or look at it once a year. There is much more joy to life than staring at cards, but building a set can be a nice challenge to occupy some free time.

this is peanuts, I know, but based on a quick ebay search of sold items just now, I think I would break even or make less than 20 or 30 bucks if I patiently sold a 1973 complete set I built in fall 2009.

summary of the build:
bought 36 lots on ebay.
2000 +/- total cards

nine of those were 1 card lots.
7 of them were more than 100 cards.

sold 1300+ doubles in one lot after completion.

Net spent was $320. overall grade is closer to VG than G.


It was a lot of fun , I've "looked at the cards" probably less than 10 times since then, and will probably look at them less than 10 times in the next 10 years. But I doubt I'll ever sell it if all I can get for it is $300 or $400.


******
that being said, I've always understood and believed that the whole is way less than the sum of it's parts when it comes to building card sets.

The journey can still continue after finally acquiring the set, by continuing to experience the joy and the meaning the set or any card or group of cards, continues to give you. Who says you have to keep a collection on a shelf and look at it once a year? The cards are there for you for whenever you want or need them. Using the term "staring" strips the experience of collecting and treasuring cards of whatever inner meaning and joy it has for the collector.

On the flip side (pardon the pun), there are so many cards to collect, I don't think there will ever be a concern about ever running out of things to acquire. But if one is compulsively acquiring and selling what they acquired, I would say that it's unfortunate to sell something that someone really wanted, at least at one point. I can understand that maybe tastes might change, and that someone might really want something else and because of limited funds, sell something that may not seem as important as getting the present thing they really want to get. But for me, everything in my collection has a reason for being there, and it's going to stay there if I have anything to say about it. I made the mistake of giving a huge collection away, when I was looking at things very differently, and also had to sell some really valuable cards because I needed the money. I regret giving the collection away, but don't feel badly about the sales, because even that had a really nice aspect to it. These cards that I had acquired as a kid, because I loved them, were going to help me out now. And they did. Something good came out of something good.

There's a great passage from "The Great American Baseball Card Flipping, Trading, and Bubble Gum Book" written by Brendan C. Boyd and Fred C. Harris which I feel captures a lot of what card collecting is all about. It's at the end of the book where they are talking about how "Your mother threw your baseball cards out, right?". The entire passage is so great, and everyone should read it. They commiserate with the poor fellow who doesn't have his cards anymore, and at the end they say, "You knew they were there, and that was enough. Enough to get you through another winter..."

Amen...

A quick look at eBay shows that for my recent 1976 and 1977 Topps sets, I probably got close.

Both cost about 300 to build in EX or so condition. That doesn’t seem far off what they’re going for...and my $300 included the binder and pages.

I was pretty aggressive in selling off extras to reinvest in the set. That’s part of the fun and challenge to me.

We’ll see how the ‘75 Topps set goes.

I began piecing my 53 Bowman color set together from scratch last December. I know I have more into it than what it would sell for, but I enjoy looking at the cards over and over again.

My major stars are on the nicer side of vg/ex to ex, many commons are ex to ex/mint. My high numbers are where I have some weaknesses- many of the cards are vg to vg/ex. I'm not real fanatical over centering, either.

I am trying to replace those cards that have wrinkles with copies that are in excellent condition. After I get close to where I want the set to be I definitely would not get my money back, but I have a 53 Bowman color set that gives me joy to look at over and over again. Hopefully, I can move the extras to start another vintage set or pick up one in vg condition that I can equally enjoy.

"Can anyone honestly say that you've built a vintage set (70s and older) brick by brick, lot by lot, filling in singles here and there, etc. and were able to later resell a complete vintage set HIGHER than the dollars you put into it?"


I think it greatly depends on the timeframes involved in the transaction. All of my sets are early 1950's vintage in EX-MT condition, and were pieced together in the late 1970's to the early 1980's, so based on card prices in that period, I have to believe any sets sold at this time would bring more than the total cost piecemeal forty or more years ago. Or, did you mean to limit the consideration to more recent "vintage" sets, i.e., 1970's?

agree
 

I agree 100%, putting older sets together brick by brick..is more times then not a " money lose " in the end

Its like looking at the price guide of ..for ex- a 1980 set...add up the indv listed price of all the cards $1 or more....that total is way more then the listed price of the compl set

But, the fun is in the hunt, and its an enjoyable hobby

Purpose
 

The purpose of my post was not to discourage collectors from building sets, when I did it with 57 and 71 it was EXTREMELY satisfying and the hunt was fun, and lots of knowledge learned along the way.

However, I don't think I realized the financial downside to it and so if someone entering the hobby is considering "Should I build (insert set)...." I think this info would be useful to know.

I've been on both sides of it. I bought a complete 1974 Topps set maybe 2 years ago. Paid $100 for it and broke it apart. Sold it off and made money. Did the same with a 1975 Topps set about the same time. Paid $200 for it.

Around 2012-13, I built a 1958 Topps set. I started with one single card. I traded for a lot of them at the LCS, and I would buy some here and there. Finally by the time I was done, I had about 6 months in it and just over $500. I sold it to Sean for $1,500. So I tripled my efforts. That doesn't happen often.

Now I'm working on building a 1957 Topps set by hand just like I did then. However, it's a little different. The LCS has changed hands, and they don't trade as much (back then I'd trade modern inserts, parallels and RCs for store credit then use it to get cards I needed for the set).

Chase has been more fun (and frustrating because I can't get anyone over here to trade with me/sell to me), but it's been a long road. I've been working on it since about March, and I'm ready to get it done. In the end, I'll end up losing money if I try to sell it. But my goal is to keep it.

I have been looking at that lately as I am considering pivoting off of my current collecting focus. For example, with my 54 set, I bought my PSA Aaron for $1650 in 2014. It is now approaching a $5,000 card. My Banks was purchased for right at $1000 and it is now well exceeding that amount. So, based upon what the stars were purchased for, there is some gain to be had.

Where I find the challenge is all of the fees and taxes. If I am paying 22% BP on the purchase and 10% commission on the sale then it is tough to clear anything inside of five years. If you add in 28% capital gains on collectibles, any gains are quickly wiped out and sent to Uncle Sam as well.

Therefore, I have to accept the fact that there is an "enjoyment tax" that I pay to collect and if it was about investment, I would just liquidate and put into my investment account with my financial advisor - which is a real possibility when you add the risk of theft and fire as the value of the asset grows and I don't want to have to go to a safe deposit box to visit them on occasion.

I collect purely for the enjoyment. I know completing sets by buying lots and individual cards is a losing proposition financially. I enjoy doing this and do not pay attention to profit and loss etc.

I have been collecting since 1971 and have always collected within my means. After I am gone my family can do what they want with the cards.

I put together a 48 Bowman set in mostly poor condition between 1978 and 1982-3. Sold it in 85? for a bit more than I'd paid. It probably couldn't be done today.
Most of the sets I collected when they were new would sell for more than I paid, but I didn't keep track of costs.

There were 2 sets I built where I acquired large lots at a great price as foundations. Filling in most of the holes with a couple of lots and the rest over a 2-3 year period.

In those 2 scenarios, I made about 20%

I sold most of my other sets 5 years ago (from break even to 20% loss), if I would have waited until this year I probably would have done quite well.

I think it depends on how long you hold it and how vintage it is. Sets from the 70's are price losers when selling as a set.

Wouldnt it depend on when you built the set? Certainly the commissions can make it challenging when you sell, but given the appreciation of many cards, if you bought the star cards well and a while ago, you should be able to make money on the set. I have been building a T3 set for years, luckily i bought the star cards first. The Cobb, young Mathewson and Lajoie should put the set value over the top. You always have the option of breaking it up to sell, too, if that maximizes exit value.

Given the appreciation over time, i would buy the most valuable cards first of building.

sets
 

the other " losing " factor with building sets brick by brick..is the added shipping expenses (assuming its Ebay,which seems to be where most guys buy from)

So for every $5/$10 card you buy...add $3-4 + for shipping. Most collectors tend to " leave out " this pesky out of pocket expenses..when they state " I put together a 59 T set for about 1100..sold it for 1300...I did alright ( really ? LOL )

Funny I used to build vintage sets for profit all the time. The key was do as much of your buying as possible in large lots, compile what you need and sell off the duplicates. When it gets down to card by card hopefully you did well enough in the bulk buys to stay ahead. I had no problem buying 200 cards to get 3 I needed because I could likely get those three cards for free by reselling the lot. Often I'd break the lot up some and actually make a profit.

My best was a 1971 set that cost me $11 net to build. Sold it for $600.

When I got back into collecting in 2012 after a 20-year hiatus, I began building Topps Heritage sets. Local dealers didn't really deal in singles, so I went to eBay. If I figured in the shipping some of the sets I assembled would have cost me far more than I'd ever hope to sell them for.

When the hobby was my job from the mid-70s to 1987 I remember dealers purchasing sets to break apart for their inventory. High initial cost, but the profit would gradually be realized by individual card sales. Based on that I began purchasing Heritage master sets, filling in the SSP cards as the money and wife permitted.

When I decided to collect the 53 Bowman color set last December I was heavy on Heritage sets and short on money so I went back to purchasing singles from eBay as the few dealers who have them in my area ask quite a bit of money for their inventory. Had I saved the money from my Heritage sales I would have the opportunity to purchase a decent mid-grade set for less than what I have into my current set. No regrets, having my set makes me happy and I relate better to it than the current shiny, expensive stuff. But, a $10 card with $4 shipping plus tax becomes in actuality a $15 card. Multiply individual purchases that require the cost of shipping and tax in building a set will leave you with a keeper at least in the short term.

sets
 

I love that !!..." as money and wife permitted " !! LOL

In my case for some of the 70's set I would say yes (although won't be a killing...I probably will come out ahead by a hundred dollars or two)...because most were bought buy me as kid back in the 70's and I took good care of them....and just filled in or upgraded some cards...as I went along... also for some of the earlier sets I bought near complete or complete series that I needed from old time dealers like Larry Fristch back in the 70's so I did alright.

Ricky Y

I recently decided to upgrade my 71 set to bring it to exmt or so, considered it a condition challenge as the set probably needed at least a 60% improvement. Mainly in the semi high series. Came out spending a good deal of money but I had a lot of fun doing it. I think that although we all want to look at the value of our collections, a lot of us do it for the enjoyment. That's the way I look at my collection.

I am currently doing three 1973 sets at that I think I'll do ok on. One is high collector grade (I'll keep it) one is mid collector grade and one is essentially terrible but all the numbers are there. I had about 3000 dupes and started with two full sets.

I think in general, the sum of the parts is usually greater than the whole, simply because there are certain buyers who will “pay up” for specific cards.

By buying specific cards, you are competing with the entire market for a single card. The market for an entire set is much smaller, and at the higher dollar prices, buyers want a better deal.

It’s the reason auto shops buy cars for parts and Wall Street mortgage traders slice up cash flows. You want to give each buyer exactly what he wants most and will payup the most for.

Agreed.

Unless you have some kind of head-start - a childhood collection, a bunch of cards someone gave you or you bought years earlier, etc - then the sum of the parts will always be worth more than the whole. Ask Greg Morris. In general, dealers will buy sets and break them apart to sell, not buy single cards and put sets together. This 'churn' and constant building/breaking apart of sets and the difference in value of the whole vs sum of parts is a singular profit motive for some dealers.

I think you are talking about something different. You are saying that you used profits from smart buys to help invest in building a set and therefore the entire process "paid for the set". That is a whole diff. conversation

That's why I sold my 1948 thru 1992 Topps sets after I came as close to completing them as my wallet / lovely wife would allow.

I lost money on the deal, but wasn't bothered by that on any level.

A non collector buddy of mine pointed out to me that I didn't spend much more for my vice (cards) than he had probably spent on his vices (drinking and smoking), but he wouldn't be selling his cigarette butts and empty beer cans and liquor bottles for anything close to what I got for my cards.

"Can anyone honestly say that you've built a vintage set (70s and older) brick by brick, lot by lot, filling in singles here and there, etc. and were able to later resell a complete vintage set HIGHER than the dollars you put into it?"

Well, I could do it now. My 1969 basketball set is worth many times what I spent assembling it.

I always though vintage basketball was too cheap. But what the heck has happened to the prices! Wow.

Even if you are collecting for the enjoyment of the hobby and not for an "investment".... From a financial perspective it can at least be a decent "savings account". Some cards may not go up in value, but if you collect what you enjoy then most of the time you can at least get back out of it close to what you put in it. I have no plans of selling my collection but if I did it would be a nice chunk of change that I have accumulated over the years.

Ok, so do you think that someone who has a exmt to nm set, that is focused on centering, would make more by selling the cards individually?

I think it depends on the set to be honest. Some vintage cards have certainly taken off price wise. I also think the original post has to deal more with buying than selling. A lot of times it's easier to swing deals on lots of cards rather than buying a set card by card. There will always be exceptions to this rule.

For an example look at the most recent REA auction.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=68928

It contains a Groat and Bartirome. Now if you were to buy unsigned copies of those cards individually, you're looking at the 600-800 range for the Bartirome by itself and the 200-300 range for the Groat by itself. Both of these cards are paired in this lot along with two others and they are all signed. Sometimes it makes sense to buy cards in groups.

I also think, and this is a difficult concept for many people, is if you want to make a profit for building a set then:

BUY THE KEY CARDS 1st. The odds are the best cards in the set will continue to go up in price or hold their value while the easiest cards will have minor increases or none at all. The easier cards will also be a bit more available both in the short and long run.

So if you are going to build a 57 Set from scratch as Pat Mentioned; These would be the 1st 10 cards I'd buy (this list is not in order but just names coming to my mind instinctively) : Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Bunning RC, Brooks Robinson RC, Frank Robinson RC, Mantle/Berra 407, Dodgers Sluggers 400, Colavito RC and Ted Williams. We can disagree on a card or two within this list but you should get this gist.

The sooner you purchase the key cards, the better off you are if your goal is turn the set into a profit venture.

Rich

Yeah some of the star cards may make you money but the commons will kill you.

Also you forget, if you take 20 years to compile the set..you cant expect to get your money back if sell all in a year. If take 20 years to sell, you will do better but nobody wants to sell sets in a 20 years process the way the assembled it over 20 years....time is money as well

Yes, in certain sets (66, 67, etc.) you also might want to get the shorter printed high numbers 1st. But the general rule is a batch of commons will always be available for you. I'll stand by what I wrote, get the danged key cards 1st. And if it is going to be a 20 year project than what I wrote is even more true.

Rich

I am working on a 1973 set, card by card. Overall the set is NM, and a 6 year project.

The first card I bought was Schmidt ( a beauty for $75 ) , then remaining HoFr's, all graded.

Common cards are ungraded.

Yes I have put more dollars into the set than purchasing outright, however this is a labor of love. This is the first year I remember collecting cards as a kid and I can't put a price on the memory and enjoyment I have gotten from the journey.

I am 50 cards away so the goal is in sight.

I built 1953-1980 Topps sets 'brick by brick' as you described it...sold all but 1953-56 and probably lost a ton...but that's didn't take away from the enjoyment of building them.

I may make a profit...someday...on the ones I've kept...the big cards in '53.'54 & '55 sets are graded...and all the cards are at least EX...so it will take a lot for me to move them.


.

I think to answer the OP's question, you have to take 'time' out of the equation. In other words, you are only looking at the cost of the whole or the sum of the parts, not looking at appreciation of certain cards over time.

That is a different question.

I think how long you spend to build a set is an important part of the equation. There is a nice man who comes to my shows *pre-Covid* who I usually see once a year when I go free admission as a holiday gift in December.

He's been working on his 1970 set since, well 1970

Other people build sets in a month, year, etc.

So the time spent is a case by case answer

Rich

[QUOTE=mintacular;2010622]

Can anyone honestly say that you've built a vintage set (70s and older) brick by brick, lot by lot, filling in singles here and there, etc. and were able to later resell a complete vintage set HIGHER than the dollars you put into it?


It depends on when you built the set. I bought my first cards in 1954 and started building sets in 1958 so my Topps, Bowman, Leaf and Fleer sets (which I still have) would definitely bring a profit.
On the other hand the sets I'm working on today--T207, R306 Butter Cream, '53 Glendale to name three--will never be worth what I have in them in my lifetime.

The full and partial sets I have built are basically the golden age, standard-sized Topps sets from 1957 through 1973, and I constantly try to upgrade them (99% of the time it's just commons and high numbers, with an occasional HOFer thrown in now and again), and if I ever try to sell them, there's no way in heckfire I'll ever get even close to what I have paid out for them so far. But once this COVID nightmare is over, I'll be right back at the card shows digging through everything I can get my hands on, looking for further upgrades. It never ends.

Thanks you for all the comments so far some interesting insights , I still hold on the belief that this type of spending usually does not work out to a plus financially, not as bad as ripping wax, but in the same bucket of collecting that takes more than it gives (financially) unless the building spanned diff decades which is sorta diff discussion