How to put the Forgers Out of Business Quickly
 

This might sound like an over simplification of a complicated process but it's not. FIRST there is no magic wand that any one in the hobby owns that they can wave over an autograph and its going to tell them if its good or bad. Authentication at least at this point in time is not science. To quote an old George Carlin line

"Somewhere in the World is the World's worst doctor and whats truly terrifying is that someone has an appointment with him tomorrow"
he also said
"Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "Practice"?"

So my point is that with autograph dealers , as with doctors, auto mechanics, plummers, Chefs, or just about any occupation you can think of there are some people that are really good at what they do and some that are really bad. Luckily for us the really bad ones are not in business for too long, at least not under the same name so the first question anyone thinking of buying an autograph should ask is "How long has this person been buying and selling autographs?" And autograph dealers or authenticators (yes, even the good ones) Don't have a monopoly on being able to tell you if an autograph is genuine or not. Some of the best "eyes" I know are not dealers, they are collectors.
As a kid in the 1960's I was facinated with getting the autographs of baseball players. This was usually done both inside and outside the stadium, before and after games but the idea of paying MONEY for an autograph in those days was a little silly. Later as an adult I wanted to add those names that for obvious reasons I was unable to acquire as a kid to my collection, At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur let me say that in the "Old days" when I first stated BUYING baseball autographs I asked an old timer....a guy that had been already collecting autographs for many years the best way to go about doing this and not get burned. What he told me was as true then as it is today. He said "Ask other collectors for 10 names of reputable people to deal with, You'll find at least five names that continually overlap and then just do business with those people" So thats what I did and the names I ended up with were, JACK SMALLING, DICK PATMAN, DOUG AVERITT, BILL ZEKUS & TED ELMO. Sadly Bill and Ted would end up getting burned themselves later but thats another story. As a starting point those five names were the guys I spent my money with. I had no reason to go outside that circle at that time because among them they ALWAYS had more autographs to sell than I had money to spend. And as my experience grew so did my circle of people I would deal with. In this day and age with more collectors and more dealers and forums like this one compiling a list of reputable people to deal would be even easier. If I were to do that today the list might look something like this, BILL CORCORAN, RICHARD SIMON, RON GORDON, KEVIN KEATING & RICH ALBERSHEIM and probably a few more names you could add to the list, Since I rarely buy stuff at auction I'm sure there would be at least two auction houses you could include in the mix too. reputable people will have at least two things in common #1) Almost everyone knows who they are because they have been around awhile #2) They are already net working with other dealers and collectors to minimize and eliminate any "mistakes".
At the risk of ticking anyone off, I've always believed that the uninformed collector does as much damage BUYING bad autographs as the crook does when he manufactures them. Again to quote George Carlin,

"Think of how stupid the average person is and realize half of them are stupider than that"

That is the market the bad guys are selling to. If that drys up so will they. Its called "BUYING SMART". It never ceases to amaze me that when guys who should know better shot me a scan of an autograph already under suspicion and I ask them where they got it they mention someone's name that no one has ever heard of or company x, or company z, that is known to be operating out of that gray area of the realm. It helps to keep the crooks in business. Buy smart and in thirty days (or less) the "bad guys" will be pursuing a proper line of work or living back at home in their parents garage.

I'm not an autograph expert, but it's similar in baseball cards. The bad counterfeits are bought buy the beginning collectors who know nothing. The problem being that you want the beginners entering as it expands the hobby, and you don't want them being turned off and leaving after buying fakes.

But some (not all) beginners are oblivious to their ignorance, assume they know all they need to know, and wouldn't take sage advice if you gave it to them.

I'm an art historian by trade and in a different collecting guides I included this same all-purpose list of basic collecting tips for beginning buyers.



"Whether it involves celebrity autographs, movie posters, fine art prints, baseball cards, postcards or antique figurines, collecting can be good clean fun for boys and girls of all ages. However, all areas of collecting have fakes, reprints and scams.

The following is a brief but important list of tips that the beginner should read before jumping into the hobby with open pocketbook.

1) Start by knowing that there are reprints, counterfeits, fakes and scams out there. If you start by knowing you should be doing your homework, having healthy skepticism of sellers’ grand claims and getting second opinions, you will be infinitely better off than the beginner who assumes everything’s authentic and all sellers are honest.

2) Learn all you can about material you wish to collect and the hobby in general. The more you learn and more experience you have, the better off you are. Most forgers aren’t trying to fool experts. They’re trying to fool the ignorant.

3) Realize that novices in any area of collecting are more likely to overestimate, rather than underestimate, the value of items they own or are about to buy.

4) Get second opinions and seek advice when needed. This can range from a formal opinion from a top expert to input from a collecting friend. Collectors who seek advice and input are almost always better off than those who are too proud or embarrassed to ask questions.

5) Start by buying inexpensive items. Put off the thousands dollar Babe Ruth baseball cards and Elvis Presley autographed photos for another day.

Without exception, all beginners make mistakes. From paying too much to misjudging rarity to buying fakes. It only makes sense that a collector should want to make the inevitable beginner’s mistakes on $10 rather that $1,000 purchases.

6) Gather a list of good sellers. A good seller is someone who is knowledgeable and trustworthy. A good seller fixes a legitimate problem when it arises, and has a good authenticity guarantee and return policy.

It’s best to buy real expensive items online from good sellers, including those you have already dealt with or those who otherwise have strong reputations."

JimStinson
 

BINGO ! drc you nailed it

Jim, First off will you consider changing your name? There are an inordinate amount of Jim's on here! :D

Secondly, I agree with everything you said except the outcome. The main problem with these forgeries is that they have been more or less forced underground. Out of the major auction houses and dealers (and to some extent eBay) and into a nebulous secondary market. Craigslist, small local auctions, flea markets, Amazon, anywhere buyer meets seller. The target is now unsophisticated impulse buyers, and/or resellers. The motivation being the "deal" or easy profit. And I believe the economic impact is far greater than what had been previously passed through the major channels. For every $600 autograph that slipped through prior, fifty $50 "signed memorabilia" pieces are being sold daily. And as Richard and others have said: Last one with the item loses.

I recommend either Ned or Ebeneezer. Ebby for short is fine.

JimStinson
 

Jim---- I agree with you

Secondly, I agree with everything you said except the outcome. The main problem with these forgeries is that they have been more or less forced underground. Out of the major auction houses and dealers (and to some extent eBay) and into a nebulous secondary market. Craigslist, small local auctions, flea markets, Amazon, anywhere buyer meets seller. The target is now unsophisticated impulse buyers, and/or resellers. The motivation being the "deal" or easy profit.

and thats exactly my point, that "secondary market" will be the outlets that have been in business 6 months or fit the catagory of "Autograph sellers no one has ever heard of" They may be well intentioned but uniformed. If they are unable to sell their product whatever it is then they stop buying. The "impulse buyer" non collector will likely never come into contact with any of us in the hobby anyway and in my opinion there are not enough of them to sustain a profitable business as they might only buy one autograph in their lives

JimStinson
 

Also agree with you that there are WAY too many people named Jim in this world

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter

JimStinson
 

Ebby,
I strongly suspect that there are far less of "Them" than of "Us" but I could be wrong as those were the exact same words George Armstrong Custer said right before he rode over the "ridge" at the Little Big Horn.
Ned

I agree with this. I think there are less veteran buyers out there needing/wanting a real Mantle ball for $500 than there are impulse buyers saying "Wow! Mickey Mantle was my dad's hero, and I can get a ball signed by him for only $250? I'm going to buy one for my boy as a keepsake."

Ken

Jim, that is very much what I have been saying on this board for a long time.
But human nature being what it is, the cheap autograph will always find a home.
Whether with an unknowledgable buyer or with a crooked reseller.
The people on the board have been seeing new entities pop up almost every day now, selling bogus items all over the country.
There seem to be new forgers popping up with regularity in addition to the old ones, that we know and despise, who are still around.
(nice to see your recommendation list, about time you paid me off for all the times I have recommended you :D).
And as you I rarely buy in auctions for resale but I can recommend Lelands for sports and non sports and Alexander Autographs for non sports.

ps. Did not know you were such a Carlin fan,,, me too, I saw him twice in person at the Beacon Theater on Broadway. What a show he used to put on. RIP.

JimStinson
 

Rich, I was refering to the autograph dealer Richard Simon that lives in Topeka Kansas, not the one in NYC. Its a fairly common name.

Exactly, or a son buying a Father's Day gift or a wife/mother buying a birthday gift, or, or, or.....a reseller looking for value to flip. The vetting threshold is far lower for these folks than it is for knowledgable collectors.

JimStinson
 

Rich, Just joshing although it IS kinda funny to think of you having a "Topeka" address (smile). Are you going to the National this year ?

I agree with everything that Jim said except for Richard :D.
Most people can't afford to buy a Jeter ball at $300 plus. So you know exactly what they do. They will buy something for $50 and tell the kid its real. Jim, when you were a kid the players signed. Today its all about the money . You can't stop this without the public saying enough is enough and that won't happen.

Why not buy a $10 ball at the store and sign it yourself if money is that big of a concern?

How about we use the talents of this board to compose a letter that can be sent to newspapers, TV, 'unaware' sellers, and possibly even lawmakers? I have already tried law enforcement and without clearcut direction, they can't/won't take any action. I think a strong front will be necessary to get any action. It could come from the net54 PAC!:)

JimStinson
 

The problem is that newspapers and TV eat that stuff up and then use it to bash the hobby over the head, but when THEY do it they don;t seperate the good guys from the bad guys. I've been a dealer for 30 years and I've met far more good people in this hobby/business than bad ones. But try doing a story about that ! Their readers would be sleeping by the 2nd paragraph.

Newspapers never write about relaxing sunny days they write about HURRICANES & s***t Storms because thats what sells papers

I agree that the tone of the article makes all the difference in the world. The Tampa Bay Times (formerly the St.Pete Times) has a top-notch investigative division who are like bulldogs. I'm sure there are others around the country who would enjoy the chance to take a chunk off this very meaty bone. Unfortunately, the majority of people get their news from TV now, so they are a somewhat of a necessary evil. But wouldn't it be better to have to 'prove' your trustworthiness than be tarnished by association? Isn't that occuring now? Everything looks better in the sunshine. Right now it is a bunch of well-meaning netizens preaching to the choir.

And that's why Jim Stinson . . .
 

.

. . . is among the list of trusted autograph dealers that I have bought from (along with Averitt, Corcoran, Simon, Gordon, Keating, and Albersheim).

What Jim stated makes sense to me. 100% foolproof it's not, but I'd much rather take most of my chances with these gentlemen, and the remainder on my own opinion, then with most of the unknowns out there.

Thanks Jim.

I go to the mall of america here in bloomington, they have a field of dreams store. they have mantle, williams, dimaggio large signed photos. i dont like the autographs, they are hologrammned by a document examiner and would come with a field of dreams cert.

so someone who is not deep in the hobby might spend a few hundred dollars because as far as they know, they are shopping at a respected place and it has a couple of certs with the item.

Welcome aboard Jim. Sure low dollar pieces will always find a home (I.E Sauderton outfit) but it's often hard to find good stories when 80-90% (depending) of the product is fraudulent and it doesn't seem like that trend will stop, but grow. Great dealers are being punished for being honest and it doesn't seem like there isn't the interest to start an organization or lead some kind of revolt against the common enemy. It's just going to get worse... IMO.

Regards,

Larry

That is scary and I am sure the mall has no idea and probably does not care as long as they pay their rent.

No, they don't because FOD can always claim the hologrammed item is from someone with "credentials in questioned documents," so the mall will say "what more do you want? can't top that!

Earlier today I got a phone call from someone who bought some autographs from an auction house that we have already discussed here. (not a real sports auction house, but a fringe auctioneer).
He tells me that after he bought them and before he paid he sent scans to Global who would not render an opinion. He said that, I don't know if that really happened.
The guy, all of a sudden, was worried that he bought bad stuff and asked the auctioneer to let him out of his bids. The auctioneer said that according to state law the buyer was responsible for payment even in the event that bogus material was sold.
He said he bought a Ruth signed ball for $850. Yeah, $850,not eight thousand.
Once he said that I just lost it. I chided him for deciding to check out the stuff AFTER the auction had ended. "Well, my partner called me and told me we could buy some stuff cheaply," was his answer.
"What should I do now?" he asks.
What am I supposed to tell him. That he is a schmuck? I wanted to but I did not.
I told him to speak to a lawyer and he asked me if he paid for them and sent them to me and I rejected them would that be enough to get his money back. How am I supposed to answer that question?
Man, sometimes I just get fed up, you know?
The guy and his partner were apparently not collectors, just fast buck artists, trying to cash in on cheap auction prices, when the entire country is full of smart, on the lookout, people who would never let a legit Ruth ball go for $850. But they thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

Richard I would not guarantee a refund that is not fair to you at all. The auctioneer that states this ridiculous law about you are responsible for payment even if the items are bogus is a complete moron. I think he should call a lawyer and just have him apply a small amount of heat to this auctioneers butt and see what happens. COA's in many cases override the "AS-IS Where is no guarantees impressed or implied" because you have included a piece of paper that implies authenticity. If the auctioneer includes no COA and states it "appears to have been signed" it would be very tough to get a refund. I also feel like he has the burden of proof due to his own negligence to show these are bogus with a credible authenticator. I hope this helps and I am no expert on autos as you know, but I am privy to auction law and know many auctioneers that can help me with an auction law question.

Which brings me back to the "net54 PAC". Millions of people buy stuff for resale. (I do it a lot. American Pickers INFURIATES me when they buy ONE item out of a box of NOS vintage collectibles :eek:). A tiny percentage are true autograph dealers. We can be of service to many by bringing the heat on a larger scale.

Makes one wonder how hundreds of times a week stuff like that happens.

It's no different than those people who bought thousands of pieces of horrific crap from AlwaysAtAuction with their advertising reading "Compare At $1800.00" for a Mantle signed piece authenticated by Ted Taylor (TTA/Stat Authentic), Nicholas Burczyk, Chris Morales and Drew Max.

Those buyers then took their purchased autographs and planned to flip them on Ebay and make a killing. I'm sure a few people might have made a small profit on that crap, but after it was discovered, the majority of that crap was removed by Ebay, and shortly thereafter, Ebay placed Chris Morales and Nicholas Burczyk on their "Banned COA" list.

How many of those buyers are holding on to that crap thinking they will pay for college tuition, retirement money, etc.

The source of much of this crap is always looking for new outlets to sell his crap. His crap was pushed off Ebay and then he found some new auction houses. Then he found local charities and local auctions. Then his buddy started to consign that crap to auctioneers all over the country. Everyone thought that things would greatly improve following "Operation Bullpen." That didn't last long. What is going on now is well beyond the "Operation Bullpen" numbers because now you have every Dick and Jane doing their kitchen-table forgeries knowing that the worse that will happen to them is that they get kicked off Ebay. And then you have certain sources of forgeries who seem to have been around forever.

Richard has been doing battle with the forgers longer than I have and it's a never-ending battle. We will win some battles, but we will never win the war because the majority of buyers of autographs are not the sharpest tools in the shed. These are people who are on the outer-circle of us. They will never find us because they aren't interested in finding us. They got their Mickey Mantle signed photo for $50.00 and they are happy until the day comes when they list it on Ebay for $400.00 and it gets removed. Then they will ask themselves "Why did it get removed, it came with a COA from a forensic person."

How does a guy like Chris Morales stay in business authenticating autographs? Buyers!!! Wanna-be collectors equate Chris Morales, Forensic Investigator to shows like NCIS.

How does a guy like Ted Taylor continue to authenticate autographs? Buyers!!!! Ted Taylor is a Philadelphia Athletics historian; he used to work for Fleer.

The other day I sent Ted Taylor the below email:

You're some Philadelphia Athletics historian, Ted.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=325589

How do you sleep at night, Ted? Tell me.

Christopher


All of this continues because of the BUYERS!!!! No one will ever convince me otherwise.

Yeah! It's the buyers' fault!

(I also believe that "She deserved it! What did she expect, dressed like that?")

P.T. Barnum is still alive and well.

And who immediately chimes in with the name-calling?

I'll bite: who? I don't see anyone calling anyone else a name.

Ken

Someone called me Carl. That's all I know.

David C., I thought you were always Carl :D.

Really?

How about after every post of yours, I chime in with something like "Bernie Madoff is alive and well." Or "Judas Iscariot is alive and well." Or "Donald Trump is alive and well."

That be OK with you, Ken?

Jim Stinson, you going to the National this year?

If you are, board-recluse Richard Simon says he will go.

DanC

First off, being as how you're the bitter crank of the group, I'd just ignore it.

But as an outsider to the squabbles here, I read this entire thread last night, and I have to say that Richard's post appears to have been in direct response to Chris' post just before yours, and in reply to several posts previous: many buyers are picking these up hoping to flip for a quick buck and getting burned, therefore they're suckers, therefore it's time to quote Barnum.

Is it possible that not everything is about you?? How did a college professor get by with such thin skin?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

I'm sure David will probably agree: I have never known a tenured, published college professor who didn't think everything was about them. :D

Absolutely correct, Ken. Richard's comment was in direct response to my post.

This is way too much.
I have Atkatz on block and cannot read his posts but since he is quoted I did read the quotes.
Did David really think that?
That is just way too much.
How full of oneself can he be and not to mention paranoid.
I know I have used that Barnum line before but it never entered my thoughts that it would be misinterpreted.
It was directed at the body of the thread as this one was.
Wow. What else can I say?

Only a recluse when it comes to the National. Conv. Have not been there in many years. Once the internet became dominant I gave up doing shows.
And my friend Jim Stinson has an even longer no National streak then I do :D.

I am in the process of prodding Jim to go but it's a big time uphill battle. :)

When I used to set up at the National I used to prod him all the time to come to the show.
Never worked.
Fight the good fight Leon, but I doubt if you can win :D.

JimStinson
 

I was debating pouring acid in my eyes or going to the National , as to which would be more fun And I elected to skip the later. Probably because I remember the days when the National was FUN. When you could meet old friends and actually buy great stuff, I knew almost everyone in the room. Then it became corporate .... I think the last National I set up at was in Atlanta and the last one I attended was somewhere in California. Not sure what years but I think Eisenhower was President

I don't know who your old friends were, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of new people would love to meet you and share experiences this year.

Ken

JimStinson
 

Thank you Ken, I never thought of it that way

Let's all meet at the JSA or PSA booth. ...guffaw
.......

JimStinson
 

I'll go if Rich goes....(smile), we could hang out at Bill Corcoran's booth. Where the heck IS the National this year anyway ? If I can find the city I can find the booth

Jim,
It's back in Baltimore this year. I hope to see you there!

JimStinson
 

Thanks , I already googled it and it is indeed Baltimore...Wish it was Rio De Janero Brazil or San Jose Costa Rica.
I probably should have asked Bill first before I invited everyone to hang out at his booth (smile), I invited him to join the site too. We"ll see