Cheatriots At It Again....
 

Bill Belicheat and Shady Brady at it again. 11 of 12 balls were underinflated during Sunday's AFC Championship Game.

Anything to get an advantage.

Caught cheating again!

Looks like that ball boy missed one. :D

...waiting for the Patriots apologists to chime in on this one.

I think they held one back in case someone (officials) picked up on it, they can throw the "good ball" right into the mix and try to deceive further....

The cold can shrink your balls. 🏈

It obviously had no effect on the game (Colts just didn't come to play), but it does show the lengths the Patriots will go to in order to win.

It was 51 degrees at kickoff. How come the Colts balls didn't deflate too?

I think he was making a joke.

But, you are correct. I was just waiting for someone to blame the weather and I was going to say the same thing.

Im a New England sports fan. To me it is the Red Sox first and everything else is a poor secondary diversion. At any rate I look at the Patriots and their fans, the real die hards, as a bit cultish. They arent particularly likable, but i do get a kick out of how indignant and crybabyish people get about their cheating. Actually watching people cry and gnash teeth about sports issues (outside of the red sox) is probably one of the funniest things going. But yeah, the Pats are pretty unlikable for the most part.

I mentioned an article in the other thread, and can't find it. But there's a newer one with more detail.

http://www.boston.com/sports/footbal...ls_for_af.html

The important bit.....

"ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots footballs were tested during halftme, re-inflated after when they were found to be under-inflated, then the balls put back in play for the second half and then tested again after the game. "

So a 10 point lead with the underinflated balls and 28-0 for the second half using properly inflated balls.
Hint, if your team scores a whole 7 points in the game and allows 28 unanswered points in the second half the problem isn't the balls. (Maybe start with an inability to stop the run...)

Steve B

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

I'm from Massachusetts. I don't like the Patriots. I guess I'm a horrible person. :p

Not being a Pats apologist here... but I think it's silly the league and media are making such a big deal about this. I'd be nearly certain that teams have been doing this regularly for decades and no one cared (until now). If one QB liked to throw a slightly deflated ball, he'd do that... if one preferred to throw a fully inflated ball, he'd do that (Aaron Rodgers prefers this). If wet or cold conditions made the ball more slick, you could let some air out.. just like you'd put on longer cleats to play in mud. When I was in HS, it was regular to practice with worn out, highly inflated balls, then play games with nice new, lesser inflated balls (almost as a reward).

To the argument all balls need to be exactly the same-- On every other level, a team choses their game ball, brand, spec, etc, and these balls can vary quite a bit. There used to the fatter Wilson 1001 ball, and a thinner 1005 "passing ball". You'd see both of these being used as game balls in college/HS based on a team's preference. Different brand balls are different too...Nike balls may have a slightly different feel than Rawlings or Wilson... balls with painted white stripes feel different than those with sown in white stripes, which provide better grip.

At some point the NFL decided to micromanage this.. I think this is relatively recent, probably around the same time they decided to use the "K" ball for special teams. Meanwhile they've made their ball fatter and fatter over the years (though I'm sure it's probably claimed the spec's the same).

I understand that "rules are rules", but that doesn't mean some aren't more chickensh*t than others. To me Deflate-gate is in the same realm as the pine tar incident.

I love this guy. How about those Packers!

How bout those Deflatriots !

If the patriots were a card cheating technique would they be a black sharpie on a 71 topps? A trimmed card? A shill bid? Something else?

To me, nothing nearly that heinous. Maybe soaking.

AH HAHAHA!

Belicheat just threw Shady Brady under the bus!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only one person has the say on the inflation, deflation, of game balls, the starting QB. Having never really thought about it before but I`m guessing mostly due to recent stories that it`s pretty common practice among all NFL teams. Someone mentioned the "pine tar incident" which sounds about right. To me sounds like it`s fairly common knowledge between teams that they both agree to leave alone. P S on a side note as a Pats fan think I`d rather play the North/South Seahawks than the spread em out quick strike Packers.

It is against the rules, but I think it's an area where the rules are perhaps a bit over the top. And from the comments of players from other teams especially quarterbacks it looks like a rule that's regularly ignored. Nobody seems to be calling for the heads of anyone on the Packers when their QB has stated he has them overinflate the game balls for him. And nearly all QBs have the balls scuffed a certain way.

On the technical end, I'd like to see what sort of setup they're using to inflate and test. I worked with gauges a lot in hydraulics, and depending on the type their accuracy can be pretty suspect. Most are less accurate at the ends of the range, pretty decent ones are 3% at the top and bottom of the range, and 2% in the middle. So if they're using a decent 0-25 psi guage the readings should all be very accurate. But if they're using a gauge with a bigger range that's cheaper - like a bicycle pump with a built in guage- the reading could easily be off. And if the refs check with the same guage so they don't have to bring their own they'll get the same wrong result. Checking with a proper setup after a complaint will show all the supposedly correct readings to be wrong.
The little tire gauges that come from Wal-Mart etc are nowhere near accurate enough.

The NFL must be loving the extra publicity. And in the end what I think will happen is a fine, the rules call for 25 thousand, and they'll probably multiply that times 11 to fine for each ball as it's own infraction.

They should change the rules to have the league supply the balls, or find a way to add something like a tamper proof sticker over the valve that the refs would apply. A tampered sticker could then be reported by the refs and the fining could be done quickly.
Or to get a bit crazy, there's enough technology that it should be possible to make a self inflating ball that would adjust for different temperatures.

I can't say I blame the Colts for reporting it. Any rules infraction that you can get your opponent busted for is something to consider especially at playoff time. Right now the Pats are big targets, just like the Yankees have been in baseball. They're good enough that everyone wants an edge, and will report stuff that they wouldn't report another team for. Usually the commonly broken rules are let slide because every team is doing something that's either against the rules or falls into a gray area. And if you report the other team, they just might report what ever you're doing.

Steve B

Here's the difference with Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers has admitted that he likes over-inflated balls, but when they are brought to the officials and they take some air out of them, he doesn't have someone go back to the balls before kickoff and re-inflate them.

What's being thrown at the Deflatriots is that the balls were checked and were deemed legal, then between that check and half-time, someone deflated 11 out of 12 balls.

And to put possible blame on the instruments being used is a joke. If those "bad" instruments were used to measure the Colts balls too, how come those didn't show under-inflation? How do 11 out of 12 balls basically measure exactly the same? Coincidence? No.

Fwiw
 

Brian Billick was just on Mike and Mike and led off his comments by adamantly denying (and being slightly incensed by) the notion that everybody does this. He says that everyone does scuff up the balls to their liking, mostly so as to take off a layer of lacquer that comes with new footballs, but that the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?

Here you go:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/...hly/vi-AA8roRM

Belicheck implied that the Patriots start off with 12.5 balls (extreme low end), and that they deflated for some reason unknown to him, but that in the future he would start them at 13.3 (I believe that was the number) to account for a margin of error. If the Pats start off at the low end (12.5), it's obvious they know that Brady likes them under-inflated. And with Belichek's attention to detail, I find it hard to believe he wasn't aware of a required range and that he didn't approve the 12.5 number. Given that, he had to know how the process for handling the balls, although he denied any knowledge of that process.

If he lied in today's press conference, he's screwed - someone (former player, equipment manager, etc) will remember some detail from the past that will burn him.

He knows about the process for handling the balls......gimme a break. He knows every letter in the operations manual.

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

I guarantee you Belicheck talked with Brady about this. He would have asked Brady (if he didn't already know the answer): "Do you have the equipment manager or anyone else deflate the balls?" If no hanky-panky went on, Belicheck would have said as much. He would have simply said: "We do nothing to the balls after the officials checked them." He knows the answer.

Wow. Brady wants his footballs at 12.5 but couldn't feel that they were light?!? Yikes. This is going to blow up in their face.

Maybe it was colder on the Patriots sideline than it was the Colts :D

Or maybe the Patriots figured out how to overinflate the Colts balls. It's a lot of fun to watch when the team that is so easy to hate gives the haters even more reason to get agitated.

Most believable analysis of the two press conferences is that Belichek threw Brady under the bus and Brady then threw his equipment manager under the bus. Shit flows downhill for sure.

Meanwhile, the Pats players are all talking the Belichek mantra, but things will come out as players change teams. Back-up QB Jimmy Garoppolo would be the logical first one to talk, as soon as he leaves the team....guessing he sees a fat raise over the off-season.

This is so stupid. I don't care what Mike Pereria, or Billick say. If the league had been at all serious about enforcement, they would simply have supply game balls to both teams during the course of a game, not prior... however they don't and never have. In turn QBs have always had the opportunity to customize balls per their wants, and have.

As said before, on any/all other levels of football, each team plays with their own chosen game balls (which can vary considerably)... and players/coaches are allowed to choose the balls that best suit them. For the NFL to make this a big deal now is a joke. The league and press are latching onto this story because it draws more attention to the SB... and frankly draws attention away from some of the other shortcomings of Goodell and the league.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some low level locker room attendant type comes forward to say he did it and Brady/Belichick knew nothing about it. I hope at least the team compensates him for his selfless sacrifice. ;)

If people want to justify bad behavior, so be it. It kinda reminds me of the Probstein (shilling) thread.

And as far as it being a serious matter, like Todd said, “the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?”

I’m sure the league will make the right decision. Here’s an excerpt from the letter that Goodell sent to Belichick after the Spygate incident, “calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field.”

I truly believe that this incident will be dealt with more harshly than Spygate (given this isn’t their first offense). The Patriots aren’t Probstein and Goodell isn’t eBay. This matter isn’t just going to go away. Something will be done, sit back and watch.

Naive or Gulible?
 

GOOD ONE, DAVID !

I’m sure the league will make the right decision

Belichick and Brady seemed perfectly credible to me. :eek:

To a point. All they are saying is that the Patriots crossed a clearly-defined line, which is pressure in the balls - heck, they gave them a fairly large range to work within. If anything, this draws attention TO the shortcomings of the NFL and Goodell.

The League wanted no part of this. This has been the worst season from a public relations standpoint that the NFL has endured in years, IMO. Yet the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson issues had finally died down. There were wild rumors about Rice being signed late by Pittsburgh to help with RB depth during the playoff chase, and coach Zimmer openly stated that he wants and expects AP to be a big part of the Vikings offense next year– in both cases the public outrage in these stories was long gone. The recent controversial endings to the Dallas/Detroit and Green Bay/Dallas games had also been an embarrassment or at least sore spot for the NFL, yet it looked like those were overcome. Now this– no way Goodell and company are happy about it, and if anything, it puts unwanted attention back on them.

Regardless of whether you think it is a major rules violation, it is a straightforward violation nonetheless, and a slap in the face of league authority. And as often happens, I believe the coverup will be worse than the crime. The Pats should have hunkered down with no comment through this week and then ducked the questions next week on the theory that we were preparing for the big game. The proper response, IMO, would be no press conference but just a simple release saying they were aware of these irregularities with the footballs and would cooperate fully with NFL investigators when questioned about it. The wink-wink of that scenario would be that Goodell would not get around to or at least would not complete his “full investigation” until after the Super Bowl, so any penalty would await next year and the overall fervor would die down. They may get that same result anyway–you heard Brady say yesterday that the league has not even questioned him about it yet– but those press conferences, especially Brady’s, bring their own harm and bad publicity and did little or nothing to calm the situation.

Some people are saying Brady should come clean, but can you really admit that you told your equipment manager to deflate balls after they had been inspected by the officials? I think the equipment manager takes the fall on this for acting based on what he thought Brady would like, and Brady continues to deny.

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

QB Damond Huard (long time NFL backup QB) said he inflated a fb to 13 lbs, felt it and deflated to 11 lbs, a full 1 1/2 lbs under allowance, and could not feel a noticable difference!

The grip is MUCH more important to a QB anyhow, not the inflation---ANY QB will tell you that, incl Mark Brunell.

Why is no one questioning the refs, who probably do no more than pick up each ball and give it a sqeeze and say "These are fine". You don't think they go in there w/ needles & guages & spend alot of pregame time, do you?

My guess is the Patriots have always inflated the balls to the min 12.5 and by halftime of ANY game they probably have fallen a bit below that.

There is no heinous crime here, Pats haters!

Let me preface this by saying I am not a Patriots fan. I am a Cardinals fan, hard to believe but true. However I do believe that if this was any other NFL team this would been a day to a day and half story at most. Doesn't make it right, or not cheating if deliberate misconduct took place (which is the most logical explanation).

How come the Colts balls didn't deflate at all and how come the Pats balls didn't deflate in the second half after they were re-inflated at half time and it got much colder in the 2nd half.

A culture of cheating with the Patriots.

Nice how you convict before knowing the facts and the investigation concludes. Guilty til proven innocent. The new American way.

No, it's hardly a joke. It would be if proper equipment and process was used, but we don't know that. Considering the information in this article I'd have to wonder if ANY equipment or process was used before the game.


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sup...tballs-n290801

From the above
"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

Yeah, handling the game balls and squeezing them. There's no way anyone gets that right within +- .5 psi.

Then go back to HS science class. Remember the gas laws? You know, the ones that relate temperature to pressure?

http://www.wcsh6.com/story/weather/2...roll/22065861/

"83,244.6 Pa is 11.8 psi, so, according to these calculations, the balls could have been under-inflated by 0.7 psi on the field, just due to the change in temperature from inside to outside."

There's most of the supposed 2 psi difference.

2% error on a decent 0-25psi guage is ---- .5 psi. And on the low end of the range the error is almost always to read low.

Total change+total error = 1.2 psi.

If the guage wasn't 0-25, but 0-100 the error on the end of the range is 3% making the difference more like 1.5 psi.

The claim is 2 psi under. Media rounding? or an actual measurement. And if the gauges the refs used were 0-100 then the markings aren't usually every psi, but every 5. Seeing the difference between 11 and 10.5 isn't easy especially if you're in a hurry - like if all you've got is halftime and you still have your normal work as well.

If they use better stuff? Yeah, there's a problem with 2 psi, and the .7 from the temperature difference should have been added. But we're not hearing about what accuracy they have available. Just the hand wringing over an accusation.

Steve B

Wow, Fred. There's actually quite a bit in the newspapers and on television regarding this - you should take in some of it.

Steve, no offense but I suspect most of your guesses about the gauges used (and whether or not the balls were instead squeezed) is wrong.

Since this is a discussion forum, I'm going to guess that the gauges were accurate and that they were used by the referees. I'm sure that will come out after the Superbowl, but that's my 'guess' for now. This would not be a big deal if it was easily explained away, and according to every other former quarterback who has been questioned, this actually IS a big deal and a violation of the rules that quarterbacks do NOT normally perform.

Roughing up balls is legal, deflating them after they have been approved by the refs, is not legal. Yes, everyone roughs up balls. No, everyone does not deflate them. Perhaps more teams deflate them than just the Patriots, but we haven't yet heard from anyone who knows that to be true.

The ball are created to NOT deflate during games, regardless of weather and temperature conditions. If you were flying them on airplanes, you might have issues, but they are checked just before the game.

Perhaps we will find one of the following occurred, but I'm guessing it will be the last point:

• the Patriots used 11 balls that were flawed and lost air, despite the fact that they were designed not to.
• the referees did not use a guage, but just 'squeezed' the balls
• the referees used a guage that had a margin of error that made any measurements a joke
• the equipment manager knew that Brady liked his balls a bit below 12.5, and so let some air out, hoping no one would notice.

The Deflatriot apologists need to do a little reading or listen to the radio for a bit before coming up with some idiotic excuses.
Start with this:
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflat...per-bowl-xlix/

Read the official NFL statement released this afternoon.

Basically the NFL is stating that all the balls were properly tested before the game, then at half-time and then again after the game. The only inconsistency was with the Pats balls from before kickoff to half-time. That meant some person let air out of those 11 (maybe all 12) balls.

The Pats balls didn't deflate at all during the 2nd half, when the temperature drop was more dramatic, so please stop talking about the temperature.

Your coach is a cheater and now your beloved quarterback will be proven not only a liar, but also a cheater.

Shady Brady should be suspended for the Super Bowl, but we all know that won't happen...what a shame.

It's my birthday and I admit I am at least half in the bag, but you can stick that completely up your ass.

Phil--I already said that they probably were on the edge of 12.5 to start with, so any change at all puts them under the min.

ONE past violation (spygate) does NOT a culture make.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Scott---I would dare say I've watched & read as much, or more, than MOST have these past few days (retired & at home, so my TV is on all day) You are only hearing what MOST of the talking heads say, but not ALL of them. CNN this PM had 3 straight ex-players (Huard included) that believe BOTH Belichick & Brady do not truly know what happened. It's NOT ALL willing to convict before the facts, that's for sure.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil---John Harbaugh thought the same thing until the League said otherwise & proved Belichick is a genius who is smart enough to USE the rules to his advantage and the other Coaches have no clue. Again, 15 straight years of success are just too much for some people & they look for anything to bring down a team that wins too much!

I don't believe Brady lied or cheated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure glad I didn't write 3 or 4 paragraphs!

Fred, my guess is that most of the people commenting on this situation, are NOT Patriot haters - I'm NFC, so if this were the 49'ers or Eagles I would be biased, but not so here. I kind of like the Patriots and hope there ends up being an honest explanation for this. I respect Brady as a great quarterback who is well-spoken and has a bit more fire than some. And I wouldn't change my level of respect for him if I found out that he did operate on the edge of the rules. But if it turns out that he is lying about this, then all of that changes. We don't know one way or the other yet, so I'll certainly reserve judgement. The truth will come out - I think it's impossible to hide in this case.

Belichek is now a known cheater, but prior to the spying incident with the Jets I had the utmost respect for him. His story is really amazing - a normal guy like any of the rest of us, who turned his love for football into a job, and became possibly the best ever at it. Patriot-hating is not on most people's minds as much as the Pats fans would like to think. You love yourselves a lot more than others hate you.

But to your point - of course the balls were on the edge of 12.5 psi, and even a .1 drop would have technically made it a rules violation. But a 2 psi drop? C'mon.

I was a little tipsy when I wrote my post last night, and do think I overstated if I hinted the league actually wanted this as a distraction to take focus off their own issues. I definitely also agree that the response (or cover up) is worse than the crime. That being said, I think seeing the league jump to action, interview 40+ Pats employees so far, and trying to look like the ever vigilant enforcers is laughable. Contrast the rapidity of this response with the months it took Mueller to investigate and eventually tell us nothing new about whether the league had viewed the 2nd Ray Rice video. Goodell and Co are a joke, and when they want to hide and play the waiting game, they're as effective as Michael Corleone in Sicily (they knew AP and Rice stories would go stale if they could just wait)... but when they see a very manageable opportunity to prove their "integrity", like deflate-gate, they're up front and center. I also do think, even if more PR damage is being done, Goodell is probably at least somewhat happy seeing another person play league villain... this of course is just my own hunch.

I'll never be convinced this incident is a big deal. I think the referenced Damon Huard comment seems plausible. Lots of opinions being offered about how big and blatant a 2 psi difference is, etc, but wouldn't it be fun to do a blind psi test of footballs and see if people could actually easily identify a 11 psi ball, compared to a 12 or 13. If the NFL wants to impose a regimented program for controlling, providing, monitoring game balls, and to stop allowing team supplied balls and alterations, so be it... it will then be a big deal if someone breaks these rules. Until then, I don't see how it can be made a big deal if enforcement has been nearly non existent for decades.

I also haven't had much time, nor do I really care to dig deeply into the coverage of this story, but I will say I don't trust the views of many many of the people I've seen cover the NFL. Many may be employed by the NFL network, others are granted great access and don't want to jeopardize that... others just have no clue. Years ago I shared an apartment with an oft times nationally syndicated sports radio host. I watched a Super Bowl with him and could not believe how little he truly knew football (couldn't tell a traditional 5 step drop from a QB in the shotgun, and so on)... yet he'd made a career talking about it, and even scarier, talked politics too. In the end, I realized most of his takes were just borrowed/taken from other talking heads, and there was limited originality in his "opinions". I'll continue to trust my gut on this one, and hope this does not overshadow what is a very compelling on field match up.

Fred, come on. These balls were "at least" 2 PSI below the minimum. That's almost 20% less than a fully inflated ball.

What do you think happened to them? Why were they below minimum (by at least 2 PSI) at half time? How come, after they were re-inflated at half-time, they didn't lose any pressure during the 2nd half?

Brady said in his press conference that he loves a ball at 12.5 PSI. Don't you think a QB at his level could tell there was a difference in these balls?

I think that they have been deflating balls for years, that certainly explains how their team fumble rate is off the charts compared to all the other 31 NFL teams.

Also, I think one big lie both Belicheat and Shady told was that they didn't learn about the situation until Monday morning. They stopped the game to change balls. Don't you think that was why they were still throwing late in the 4th Quarter when the game was already over. They were pi##ed off that the Colts called them on it.

Read this article about their "culture". I know it's one man's opinion that lost to NE in a Super Bowl and he does mention that he doesn't have any solid evidence because Goodell got rid of all the evidence after SpyGate.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12...ts-controversy

Tainted Super Bowls and tainted careers for both.