Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
The fact that only 2 clear versions have shown up after 30 plus years makes me think they are the hardest card to find from the 80s. Seeing Steve’s clear card recently confirmed for me that the clear versions are lightly tinted blue cards and tracking down the blue cards with more tint is nearly impossible too. I’m definitely looking forward to any future discoveries people have with those cards and finding out more about them. |
2 Attachment(s)
Wow, Hatorade, you have an amazing collection. Thank you for sharing your pictures.
I agree that the clear version and blue tint are closely related. The blue bar intersecting RJ's head seems to have more overlap with the vertical grey bars above on these versions (and some of the clearer green versions). I've wondered whether the first run(s) at the "green plant" produced the clear version. It seems they noticed the clear sign relatively quickly in the production process and made an initial "fix" of adding blue tint to the sign area. Since this didn't dull the clarity of the Marlboro letters (and perhaps drew even more attention to the sign) they moved on to "fix" the "fix" pretty quickly by apparently mixing yellow into the blue and then varying the proportions of yellow and blue to get darker greens. Of course I'm just guessing and others probably have better theories on this. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if another completely clear example is out there somewhere without the blue bar overlap apparent in the two known examples, perhaps coming from the "red plant". Steve |
Just opened the earliest box I've had the pleasure of opening tonight, from a sealed case. Without revealing too much, this date would definitely fit the "mid November" criteria.
This is what the result was... https://ibb.co/2vk429G https://ibb.co/2SY7Kqg https://ibb.co/McnpgBX https://ibb.co/WGNS0y3 https://ibb.co/DpNNb69 |
Quote:
|
83272 (the 327th day of 1988) would be November 22nd. That is about the earliest date I've seen. 100% sure I haven't seen anything in the 831xx range.
The latest codes I've seen FWIW are around 917xx. Prices have certainly gone up in the past few years. You couldn't give these away 15 years ago. OT - weren't there other '89 Fleer with Marlboro ads in the background? |
Quote:
They got an absolute steal on this case, too. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
This one does have the "pube" too, I believe. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
With that said - the million dollar question. Why the heck wasn't the black box/corrected version just done right away? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
As for the why...From a production standpoint, could Randy have seen the card and complained about it post production? We know that Fleer was printing and distributing cards by mid-November 1988. Maybe earlier, but unverified, if so. We know that by mid-November the card had seen multiple cover-up attempts. Did Randy somehow see one of the few clear examples immediately upon release and object to the ad? How did he see it so quickly? I’ve never heard of a card company sending proofs to players before production. I don’t believe that is a thing. Very odd but I’m doubtful that Randy’s objection is the cause for it. What’s really surprising to me is that nobody has managed to track down someone in the know. No Fleer people on the record even sharing conjecture, questionable memories. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Just weird, really. |
Quote:
Quote:
Was the Ripken FF immediately corrected or is anyone willing to share how long it took Fleer for the common version of that card to come out after the discovery? Quote:
“Sorry I cannot help. I joined Fleer in January, 1992. In fact I never heard anyone speak of any variations there except the Billy Ripken. As for pointing you in another direction I'm afraid I can't help there either. Fleer is dead and gone and the employees are spread all over the place.” I came across some info on another fleer employee from around that time period, but I can’t locate it anymore. It sure would be cool to hear the true story about these cards from someone that was involved. |
Quote:
I know Frank Mustin, who was the grandson and involved has since passed away. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
From Hatorade’s amazing flikr collection, my nominee for rarest of the box versions. What should this strange, inverted color scheme be called? And if I’m wrong and someone has 200 of them, feel free to let me know!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rjmarl...g/40182763012/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/rjmarl...g/40182763012/ |
Quote:
I will try and get up a pic of mine later today. |
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
|
I still have one of these also. I will post a pic when I get home.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk |
1 Attachment(s)
This is a cool one. I think this is the same version.
|
Yes, those are all examples of them. I have just one among all of my box variations. And what a weird way to “correct” or cover up the ad!
|
Quote:
I will send pics when I get a chance. |
2 Attachment(s)
Still related to 1989 Fleer, but not as 'clear' as the RJ Marlboro here are a couple others that also have the sign in the backdrop or atleast a part of it.
|
Quote:
|
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
After looking at the 1987 Donn Jennings Randy Johnson card I think not only did he have no problem being associated with tobacco, but maybe he has a thing for appearing next to the Marlboro ads? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
:confused:
Glad I'm not the only one to notice that. |
1 Attachment(s)
Fun thread have enjoyed the read.
Related fun card (I believe) is 1989 Topps Steve Searcy, where a difference in cropping was made that obscures the Marlboro ad. Earlier versions show the ad more clearly later ones don't. Now all the 1989 Topps Future Stars have these slight cropping variations, so it made me wonder if these differences are perhaps all tied to making a change to the Searcy card to hide the Marlboro ad. Only the Future Stars cards have these cropping differences (and they appear on different printing sheets) so it can reasonably assumed that the cropping was intentionally done for some reason. |
Quote:
Quote:
We've discussed the Clear/Blue, Fish and Negative versions of these error variations a little. That leaves the Marlboro, Red, Greens and...what else??Steve posted a really cool picture of some of his Marlboro versions on another site and hopefully he'll share it here as well. Who else has some images of their other versions they would like to share? |
Quote:
See also the Gregg Jefferies card on 1989 wax boxes and the multiple changes that the Sheffield went through. |
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it. My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve |
Quote:
Also, during the recent downtime, I scanned some of my clearest PSA graded ("no-tint") examples using the same scanner with same scan settings. Here is that picture in case anyone is interested. All of the cards pictured except the clearest version one (i.e., N1, or "no tint" clarity 1) would fall in the N2 ("no tint" clarity 2) bin. http://imgur.com/a/DgBH8Yh https://imgur.com/a/DgBH8Yh |
Quote:
|
3 Attachment(s)
Quote:
|
Was just thinking of this while watching the Twins/Sox game...
Has anyone ever seen a cello or rack showing a Johnson Marlboro version on top? |
Quote:
Thanks! You have many many more of the versions than I do! I wonder if it makes sense to edit the sketch, putting the clearest version on the very top (since it is highest on the clarity scale) and the completely blacked out version on the very bottom (since it is lowest on the clarity scale). All of the other versions fall between these two extremes (so those pictures would be in the middle). Then, I could replace the "no tint" label with "light red tint" (so the four columns across the x-axis would be "light red tint", "blue tint", "green tint", and "dark red tint")? |
Quote:
It looks like the next two cards remaining from the clear column would be moved to the top of the current red column. The last remaining image in the old clear column would be moved to the top to start a red 2 column. You would also add 2 columns for each fish version and 1 for the negatives that we've talked about earlier. Then things get pretty interesting for the greens. There appears to me to be a minimum of 4 or 5 different green runs so it gets a little tougher for them. Fortunately, with some of the characteristic feature I mentioned earlier you can do some separating within the different versions. |
Quote:
I also have one of the blue box cards. Pretty sure I have posted a pic of it. |
Quote:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218755 With your card you can read the lettering in Marlboro pretty well in the scan despite the amount of tinting over the ad. Your card was one of the 4 or 5 that will fall in the mid-blue level on Steve's chart. With the blue box version I referenced you are unable to view the Marlboro lettering in the scan of the card and appears very much like some other "box" versions, but unlike those other versions with the blue box card in hand, you can still read the letters in Marlboro. The blue box version is the 3rd image on post #41. To follow up with your question, the lightest known red versions are the cards like the bottom three cards from the none column. As you mentioned, the "clear" card that I suggested be moved to top of the blue column has very little to no red tinting on the card and as the card does gain tinting over the ad its blue tinting and not red so it gets progressively bluer and not more red with additional tint. With the way Fleer produced the cards the clear versions go from clear to mid-blue to blue box and why I suggest that the top card in the none column and Kevin's card go atop the future blue column. This is also why I suggested the other cards in the none column be moved to the top of 2 future red columns. As these 2 red run of cards gain more tint they become darker red and become so much darker red they transition to the two other cards I included in post #41. I also suggested that he add two columns to his chart for the fish versions. If you look at the 2 different albums of the versions of the fish on my Flickr page you'll notice that the cards are setup in similar fashion to what Steve is suggesting in his chart. The top cards have very little tinting and the cards at the bottom have so much tinting that they transition into "box" versions. The cards transitioning is not a coincidence, but how Fleer covered the error. By making some changes to his chart I think we can highlight the different versions and how each version transitions in a lineage from light to darker. I don't have it 100% figured out at this point, but if I'm wrong I think it will come out pretty quick by trying to develop the chart further. If I'm right filling in the gaps will be fun and give us a better understanding of the errors. |
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
It is great what you guys are doing. Back when I was hoarding them I always wanted to take pics and make a list for all the different versions. EDIT: Added pic it is kinda hard t see in the pic but it definitely looks like yours in hand. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
|
PSA won't authenticate 1989 Fleer cellos anymore. The newer holders are too tight for those packs - FYI.
(Note: I now am seeing some of these 'new' PSA holders on eBay - so maybe they 'fit' now. :confused::confused:) |
I’ve been closely following the surge in 1989 Fleer case breaking over the last several months and a few things have become very clear RE: the Randy Johnson card:
1. All correction types/methods took place by January 1st. No 1989 dated case has turned out a non-full blacked out version. 2. Several types of corrections will come from the same case. This is very interesting to me as I previously had assumed that since Fleer had used two printing facilities for this product, that was the cause for the color tints. But now I am convinced that Fleer had multiple presses running (perhaps at both plants) and each press had a different type of correction to the plate; for example: say they had four presses going, one would have a green mask over the sign, one a red box, etc etc. This is the only way I can explain the various versions coming out of specific day dated cases. |
Quote:
Ben, I believe I own the blue one you had. I bought it from David on this board. I'm pretty sure this is the one due to the small scratch over the Marlboro man. I was lucky enough to grab a second blue one on EBay earlier this year. I know Kevin also has one of the blue ones. Outside of these and the ones on Hatorade's site I haven't seen others (but always on the lookout in case more come out of the woodwork). I'm still hoping to add to my above sketch but have been holding off for some cards to get back from PSA grading so I can scan them. If possible I want to use the same scanner and same settings so I can better differentiate the versions (as opposed to differences in scanner or photo settings). |
Quote:
I just pulled my first rack pack with a Johnson variation on top - black box, and it wasn't during the time period that we all though it "should" be. What is Hatorade's site? Can you provide that? Thanks! |
Quote:
|
You are absolutely right Dylan, these Johnson variations were corrected long before the Ripkens which were initially corrected around the Jan 17 time frame. I tend to think all Johnson varieties were corrected before 1989, and I opened many boxes and cases with different varieties in them, including red and green tints, box versions, etc. This also occurred with the Ripkens at times, you could get different variations in the same box/case.
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
Versions of "Marlboro Ad on Scoreboard"
1 Attachment(s)
Hi everyone. Sorry it has taken so long. Over the last couple months I’ve spent quite a bit of time trying to wrap my mind around the “best” way to extend my classification figure of the Randy Johnson Marlboro cards. I have over 70 of the 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson cards which I believe PSA could label as "Marlboro Ad on Scoreboard" (over 40 of these are graded by PSA or BGS). Of course there is a wide range of versions which could fall under this label. I want to preface this by saying that this was my attempt at classifying the different versions under this heading. That said, I am sure not everyone will agree with what I've put together and am equally sure that there could be better ways of doing this. Also, I am limited due to the size and scope of my collection (I have not actively collected the blackbox or fish versions). Just because I don’t show a particular version only means that I don’t have that version (not that it doesn’t exist). That said, for me, the resulting classification provides some order to help me better understand (and gives me a new way to think about) the versions I have in my collection (i.e., cards which PSA could potentially classify as "Marlboro Ad on Scoreboard"). Take it for what it is worth.
Here was my process. I scanned all 70+ of my cards and cropped the Marlboro sign. All scans were made on the same scanner with the same scanner settings. I used an Espon V600 scanner for all scans. Someone on the board posted a good set of instructions on using an Epson V600 scanner so I purchased this scanner last spring at the start of the lockdowns (to avoid any learning curve). I am very happy with it because I can get consistent lighting conditions on the Marlboro signs across the various versions. I then put all the cropped scans of the Marlboro sign into a PowerPoint slide and manually moved the 70+ photos around to try and put "like cards" in piles. I then arranged the piles into some natural order (at least to me) based on (1) tint, and (2) clarity - defined as being able to clearly read all letters in the word Marlboro. Of course, this definition of "clarity" impacts the order since there are versions with very clear letters but where you can't see the cowboy. The definition for tint was harder than it first appeared and it took me quite a bit of trial and error to come up with what I believe is a logical scale… As I put “Marlboro signs” into piles the one thing that began to stand out to me was subtle differences in cards with the same clarity due to "vibrancy". Upon closer inspection I began to attribute this "vibrancy" to having more blue-ness or almost a blue glow around the sign. I had always assumed that "clarity" was on a continuous scale. Now, I feel that tint is on a continuous scale too. I became curious about what would happen if there were three PRIMARY COLORS of tint (i.e., GREEN, BLUE, and RED -- labeled g1, b1, and r1 in the figure). I know these are not the real primary colors but they seem to be predominant varieties of the tints so I went with them. For example, on the blue-red spectrum you get purple tint cards, on the green-blue spectrum you get the very dark GREEN, and on the green-red spectrum you get some of the more dulled out reds. Anyway, I ran with this idea (because under this notion the card locations started to naturally fall into place) and here is what I came up with. I threw in some labels for my own record keeping (but did not label anything that I felt couldn’t be classified as “Marlboro Ad on Scoreboard”… of course you may disagree). A couple of final notes. Beyond the clearest version (n0), my favorite versions are b1 and br2. I never really understood what made br2 stand out to me over the similarly clear rg2 card. Now I believe it is due to the blue-ish tint that makes the letters almost vibrant in the br2 version. Some people may scoff at this but holding br2 and rg2 next to each other there is a clear difference and I know which version resonates with me (perhaps since my favorite color is blue??). Second, I put a yellow rectangle around the blue box version that Hatorade provided. This is the one version I do not have a copy of (so the picture is not from the same scanner/scanner settings). Beyond that one card these are all my cards and I was able to group every one of my 70+ cards into one of the piles shown in the figure. Third, I want to reiterate that my view of “clarity” is on a continuous scale. There could certainly be versions between g1 and gb2; however, for me simply knowing I have a card that is g1-gb2 is sufficient to know where it places in my mental framework of the versions. I hope this helps move forward the discussion and interest in my favorite card. Steve |
That's really a great layout. Thanks!
|
Steve, thank you for that post. It is a pretty freaking sweet thing to read, given I am an avid 1989 Fleer collector (mainly for Johnson & Ripken).
Thanks for all your work in providing that. I would love to chat more with you at some point, if possible. |
1 Attachment(s)
That chart is great Steve. It provides a great comparison/contrast of some of the different lightly tinted versions. It’s a really nice showcase of the differences in similar cards with the way they are all grouped. There are a couple of interesting ways to further develop the relationship that exists between the cards by looking at other areas of the card outside of the ad while comparing the ad areas. Recurring print dots and the red squiggle are a couple of features that have correlations to certain versions. An example of this, if I see them correctly, would be that it is very likely if you shared larger images of rg2 and gr2, both of them will have the red squiggles and either or both of them will have a 4 dot. The 4 dot is in the diagonal blue line next to Randy’s head in the image below. With your collection of cards you likely have 4 or 5 other cards with the 4 dot on them as well.
|
Quote:
Thanks, everyone. It was fun putting this together. Hatorade, that is a beautiful card. I believe that is what I labeled br2 in my figure. You have a great point about the dot in the blue bar. I just checked and I have a br2 one just like yours where the dot is in this lower vertical position. I also have br2s without any dot and some br2s with the dot in the same place horizontally but in a higher vertical position. I believe all of my rg2s and most of my gr2s also have a dot (I don't think I have any cards of the rg2 version without a dot - but of course that doesn't mean they aren't out there). I haven't seen this dot on versions n0, b1, r1, g1, gb2, rb2, br3, or br4. I don't think the dot is common on rg3 either but am not 100% sure it doesn't exist. This dot has actually been a big help to me in purchasing cards on eBay when it isn't otherwise apparent from picture quality in the listing which version you are getting. When I see a card with this dot on a relatively lighted tinted card I'm pretty sure it will be something that PSA would label "Marlboro Ad on Scoreboard". Extrapolating from the figure, I'm really hoping there might exist a very light green (maybe even almost yellowish) tint card with no bubble and the cowboy visible. I've never seen one of these but it seems one could exist (as a more pure g1 variant). |
Excellent work Steve! It's nice to see some of the varieties clearly, as they are very difficult to see in person under normal lighting conditions.
|
Quote:
I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as many of you, but I've always had this thought in the back of my mind that in the case of the Ripken, the variation depended on who did the printing. I would assume (maybe wrongly) that due to the sheer volume of cards that needed to be produced, there were multiple printers doing the work for Fleer. So perhaps the clear Marlboro came from one printer and all of the printers were using the same print codes. So in theory you could have the same print codes and get different variations depending on which printer the case came from. I'd love to hear thoughts on this. |
Quote:
You are more likely to find multiple variations of the Johnson card in the same case than you are the Ripken variations. Like, if you have a sealed case that you open and the first Ripken card is a black scribble, you are 99.9% going to find only that variation of Ripken throughout the remainder of the case. However, in the case of the Johnson card...I have opened a sealed case before and gotten multiple variations out of the same case...SOMETIMES even the same box (although rare). |
Steve B was kind enough to answer a few of my questions on the specifics of the printing process with these cards a few years ago. It seems that all the Johnson errors likely shared the same image on the negative for the black plates and that the common version cards were likely corrected by altering the original art for the negative used to make their black plates. The editing of the errors therefore likely took place in the negatives and plates for the three other colors. It would be great to hear more from Steve B or someone else with printing experience to discuss where/how exactly those changes happened. Would the fact that multiple versions were being produced at the same time point to the plates on each press producing their own “version”?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Awesome stuff - really love the information and transparency on this topic!
|
randy johnson
1 Attachment(s)
This really has nothing to do with Randy Johnson, except I was going through my Brett photos and this one looks like the same location as the johnson shot
|
sorry if this was already posted somewhere in this monster of a thread, but were the ripken FF and johnson marlboro sign cards only available in a certain packaging? or was it just based on when the cards were produced? didn't know if rack packs vs wax packs vs complete sets mattered. thanks!
|
Quote:
All was dependent on when the cases were produced/packaged. |
Quote:
|
Anybody have any "tricks" they use to be able to see the sign better? As I have gotten older I find it way harder to tell them apart.
A couple things I do. Make sure to look at them in a room(or outside) that has as much sunlight as possible. At night with just lights on in a room they all look like box cards to me. The yellow line printing error Bill Ripkens are the same way. Can't see the line without good sun light. I have also found taking pics with a 10X loupe of the sign area using my phone helps. Then up load them to my computer and compressing it to 25% of original size helps a lot. Anybody else have any tricks they use? Also, besides the 2 very light red tint and the 3 or 4 known blue tints what is considered the rarest version. I have been away from super collecting them for some time. Back several years ago the green scribble was considered the toughest. |
Hey Ben, I have a few versions of this and and the Ripken card that I picked up years ago, but never got into collecting them to the depth you are talking about. Do you think all of these different versions are from the original printing process or were some created after the fact. I know some of my Ripkens are fakes, not sure about the Johnsons. Agree with you about old eyes, and that would keep me from getting back into these things to any greater degree
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:32 AM. |