Paypal Family and Friends Payment Problem Anyone else??
 

HI All:

Wondering if anyone else has had this situation.

I received payment via paypal family and friends for a non ebay transaction.

I have tracking and insurance on the package which has not yet been delivered. It was scheduled to be delivered last Monday the 28th. It is in USPS limbo hell!

Now the recipient has filed a claim with paypal who has put a hold on my account for the amount of the transaction. Paypal is asking me for tracking info.

I can't believe the guy would do this after a week. But at any rate, if the item does not show up what happens? I know I can file with the P.O., but what about paypal? Anyone else have this happen to them?

How does family and friends figure into this? I have heard there is less "protection" for buyers using this but what about sellers?

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Fred

Fred,

I use PayPal regularly, but have never had this problem. I wish you the best.

I was not aware a buyer could file a claim on money sent as gift f/f. I assumed that was where the risk came in.

Same here, have used both F&F and regular PP and have never had any issues like this. I'm actually surprised Paypal got involved on a F&F payment for "goods". I know they frown upon people trying to skate around fees by using F&F to pay for transactions on sales of goods. I would think they would have told the buyer, "no fees paid with protected invoice, not our problem". Hopefully the package arrives soon and all of it gets sorted out.

I don't think the buyer has any recourse here, however, PayPal may ultimately (and likely) cut off your ability to send and receive funds via Family & Friends now that the aforementioned (impatient and reactionary) buyer confirmed to them that you used the no fee method for a transaction of goods.

This happened to me when a buyer mentioned the sale of cards in the memo section of PayPal.

Good luck.

There is no Paypal seller protection for a transaction that is characterized as a non-commercial transfer, nor should there be. Here's an idea that I follow: don't use the non-commercial settings on Paypal to cheat the company out of its fees. I do not sell items with gift payment nor will I buy with them that way [I add 3% to the price if the seller wants gift]. Setting aside the ethics of your actions--at the root of it all, you lied to Paypal about the transaction in order to scam them out of the transfer fees--if something goes wrong, you have no recourse because you misrepresented the transaction as a non-commercial one.

Both Paypal and eBay protect the buyers side way more than the sellers side. You will most likely take a double hit on this one (not getting paid and lost whatever u shipped it out)

Are you sure it was F&F and they just didn't cover the fees? Send me a PM I will assist...

While your statement is correct, it was the OP that confirmed to PayPal that he used the no fee method for a transaction of goods (by providing the tracking number).

If the OP requested PayPaf F&F, they may indeed cut him off from using that again. However, if the purchaser took it upon themselves to send PayPal F&F, then I don't see how the OP can be held accountable. I've had that happen quite often here on the B/S/T where I'll sell a card for a particular amount and then the buyer send PayPal F&F w/o me even requesting such (although I do sometime request such).

Also, as others have stated, I was unaware you could even open a dispute with PayPal F&F.

When sending money in that fashion, the sender has the option of eating the fees so that they are essentially sending 103% of whatever the amount is and the recipient gets 100% of the amount specified for the transaction. On the receivers end, this may look like a "Friends and Family" transaction (in that no fees appear to have been taken out), but it's not quite the same, and may still afford the sender some measure of protection. That sounds to me like what's going on here, but as a frequent user of Paypal, I would be interested to hear clarification from the OP as to exactly what the situation is.

The package almost always eventually shows up. Few things are more frustrating than these lost/delayed deliveries, but I bet this is a non-issue in a few days.

Best of luck, Fred :o

I'd like to know if the impatient buyer is a board member here. If the OP supplied him with a tracking number, it was pretty crappy to file a PayPal claim at this point anyway rather than giving it a few more days.

I agree. I too would like to know if it is a board member...

Paypal mess
 

Hi Guys:

I am the OP. I will try to answer/clarify what has been posted/asked here. Sorry I am answering late. I am not on here everyday and I have not been getting instant email notifications as I signed up for. Only received one notice after the first reply. Nothing since.

The payment was most certainly through F&F's. The buyer instigated the payment through F&F's I did not for example send him an invoice. I don't even know if this is possible with F&F.

I did request the payment be made through F&F.

The buyer is NOT a board member as far as I know.

I too thought he jumped the gun in starting the process with paypal. The package arrived at a unit near him. He has visited the unit, asked questions etc. but so far no package. He panicked. The stuff inside is worth about $2K. When I said to him I thought he could have waited a while longer, his response was:

So is it early?? Could be ... But honestly the situation is very disappointing. I called PayPal and advised the situation as I was ensuring what the protocol would be....PayPal agreed that a case was in my best interest.

I too thought F&F had no or not much recourse for the "buyer". But IF they told him to start a case who knows. There is insurance on the package, but who knows if the P.O. will pay off or not. I have heard horror stories about that and establishing value etc.

I have no interest in screwing the guy. If the package is lost I would repay him the insurance, but in the meantime he has $2K of my $$ tied up.

And what happens if the P.O. does pay out and the package arrives months later?

Another question. Who should start the insurance process? The seller or the buyer? The buyer paid for the insurance, so should I send him the receipts and he deals with the P.O. gets the payout etc. or is the onus on the seller?

I await your responses!

Thanks,

Fred

F and f is at your own risk. To put it bluntly you are an IDIOT if you accept a gift that isn't blank (refund it and demand a blank payment or take it normal). You should never send a gift that is not blank....I refuse and refund if someone does not trust enough to send blank.

I need to put together a paypal guide for the forum. Its simple if you don't trust the person don't pay with a gift. I will try my best tomorrow.

Looking forward to your "guide" and an explanation of what BLANK is.

There was not a matter of trust in this transaction. The problem only arose when the P.O. "lost" the package. BTW I was the RECIPIENT of the F&F payment, so I did not pay with a gift as you reference. But I guess that makes me an IDIOT to accept the payment that I requested.

I don't have a problem with personal payments, but I think you have to be careful. If you have a lot of transactions this way, it triggers paypal and they will make it so you can never do that again. I think...

This is all still so bizarre that PayPal would even ENTERTAIN a complaint via F&F for a purchase of goods. They just got cheated out of $60 in fees because the buyer chose to skate around their system and send the money via F&F and now they're gonna take up the hassle of his complaint and have to deal with both of you getting upset and lodging complaints on what has transpired?? If I was PayPal I would have sent a response to both of you basically stating why trying to "cheat the system" via F&F to avoid fees for the sale of goods is prohibited and in essence an unprotected gamble on both of your parts.

The seller should still have all of the insurance info. Have him give it to you so you can go to the PO with it. I had this happen with a bat that was stolen(or had fallen out but you be the judge) out of the bat tube and luckily the guy put insurance on it. The PO did in fact pay me and really, it was pretty easy actually.

But you're right, the item could show up several weeks later. Exact same thing happened again with a bat falling out. Received an empty bat tube and had to contact the PO to turn in a lost item giving them a description. Sure enough, about a month later the bat was found and shipped to me wrapped in brown paper by the PO. Shocked it actually showed up since it was a Winfield used bat with his name right there on the barrel, bright as day. I thought for sure it was a goner. Anyways, that was an EBay transaction that the guy had to give me my money back. Then it showed up and I went ahead and paid him right back, which I didn't have to do but obviously did.

So yes, an item/package could be found weeks/months later and shipped to the buyer even if the buyer already got a refund. Definitely happens, but hopefully the buyer does the right thing in this instance.

Where on the paypal website does it say you can not use F&F to purchase goods? I have not found it.

Actually I found this:

Requesting Payments and Money Online - PayPal
... Friends or family. This is for a good or service Free for you. ... You're also covered by our Purchase Protection. Goods or services. Business. ...


Is F&F considered a Direct Payment?

I also found this on the paypal website:

PayPal User Agreement


Even if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection, you can file a Dispute and try to resolve the issue directly with the Seller; however, PayPal will generally not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim for an item which is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.

If you aren't comfortable with the seller refunding you should something happen (ie: trust the seller to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances) then don't pay a method that is supposed to 'unrefundable'. It's that simple. There is nothing more to it. F&F Should be considered handing someone cash assuming and hoping they will do the right thing - nothing more, nothing less.

I will banter more tomorrow.

Sean

I have nearly 100% F&F transactions, I simply do it correctly. Again, will expand in the near future and write a 'guide' that should protect both buyers and sellers assuming they follow it in full.

You can still use a credit card when using paypal and F&F. Therefore, the buyer can still initiate a credit card bank chargeback to paypal, where paypal will lose the funds. This is probably why Paypal accepted the case, and is tying up the seller's paypal funds.

Sean:

AGAIN. I am the SELLER. As I said in the above I am the RECIPIENT. The BUYER who paid ME through F&F has not received the package and has filed with paypal and has put a hold on my $$

I look forward to your banter

I've spoken directly to them before and was told F&F wasn't designed to be used for transactions of goods, it was a way of just sending money to FAMILY and FRIENDS and not have to pay fees to do it. But of course MANY people (and they know it) use F&F as a way to avoid fees on transactions for goods.

I guess I don't understand, why would they even have "fee portion" if F&F transactions for the sale of goods still entitles the buyer to all of the "protections"?? They're kinda contradicting themselves. And how is it basically known by everybody to "avoid F&F because of no protection" if PayPal supposedly protects every single fee skipping transaction? I'm confused on this aspect :confused:

This is most likely the case and most logical. Now if he paid via PP balance, I'm back to being at a loss as to why PP would take up this case in the first place.

Paypal describes payments this way:

You can send money to make a purchase or to make a personal payment to someone.

If you’re making a purchase, there are 3 payment types:

Goods - Select this payment type when you’re paying for something that you didn’t buy on eBay.
Services - Use this payment type when your purchase is not a product but a service (for example, work performed for you by someone else).
eBay Items - Select this payment type to pay for things you buy on eBay.

When you make a purchase, the seller pays a small fee to receive your money.

If you’re sending a personal payment, payment types include:

Gift - Select this payment type when you’re sending money as a gift for a birthday or other special occasion.
Payment Owed - Use this payment type for things like reimbursing a friend for your share of a restaurant check, or repaying money that a family member loaned you.
Cash Advance - Select this payment type when the money you’re sending isn’t for the purchase of goods or services. (Remember that your card issuer may charge a fee for cash advances.)
Living Expense - Use this payment type when you need to pay regular, recurring expenses like rent or utilities.
Other - Select this payment type for anything that’s not covered by another payment type.

You can make a personal payment to anyone in the U.S. for free. Just make sure that you pay for the entire payment using your PayPal balance or bank account. A small fee applies to payments made with a debit or credit card. For more information, click Fees at the bottom of any page.

Using personal payments to get paid for goods is a violation of the Paypal user agreement:

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

You also agree to bear the financial risk of any chargebacks. The only exception is if you qualify for seller protection. To do so: "You must ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page"; there is no shipping address for a personal payment, so asking the buyer to use gift never qualifies you for seller protection.

IMO, saving 3% on a deal is a silly trade-off for risking a scam. Even if you have no qualms at all about the business ethics of avoiding paying a fee for the service Paypal offers--and I do since I am a service provider and do not appreciate it when people beat me out of my fees--I personally do not want to accept the risk of a charge-back, so I make sure to use the right transaction form for all deals.

Out the buyer... What Mr. Chen said is correct - the only real way to recall F&F is to initiate a credit card charge back. That is not a case that can ever be won. I recently lost one even though I did everything to paypals exact standards (shipped correctly, uploaded tracking correctly etc). If the buyer calls up their credit card company and tells them that they didn't make the transaction then the selling party is SOL.

Did theirs specifically say it was for goods or was the payment made completely blank (basic fields, nothing typed). I have a feeling if they were able to file a normal case then they may not have payed F&F - just regular and covered the fees on their end (this is possible). I would need to actually physically see the payment details on Paypal to help out much further.

I've unfortunately been involved in a number of charge back and ebay/paypal issues these days, but very luckily have managed to land right side up for them so far.

For the issue in this case, from my experience (not sure what happened in Sean's), you can still win your case as long as your item shows delivered to the customer w/ his signature. You will have 21 business days from the day the item was shipped for the package to be delivered (or at least attemped delivery). Hopefully if the Post Office doesn't screw up here, you'll be okay in the end.

Sean:

The buyer did say what the payment was for in the message section. I do not know if he paid by CC or checking account or paypal balance. You said if you saw the payment details you could help. See below. I have redacted the buyers name my email and the description of the items sold and the transaction ID #.

Mobile Payment Received (Unique Transaction ID # )




Original Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Apr 25, 2014 Payment From Held ... $2,000.00 USD $0.00 USD $2,000.00 USD


Related Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
May 5, 2014 The funds are not available while this transaction is being reviewed Placed We'll complete the refund as soon as your original payment is processed by the bank.
We'll complete the refund as soon as your original payment is processed by the bank. Details -$2,000.00 USD $0.00 USD -$2,000.00 USD
Total: $0.00 USD $0.00 USD $0.00 USD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sent by:
(The sender of this payment is Verified)
Payment sent to:


Total amount:
$2,000.00 USD
Fee amount:
$0.00 USD
Net amount:
$2,000.00 USD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:
Apr 25, 2014
Time:
16:18:31 PDT
Status:
Held

Gary:

What one of my original questions was is what happens if the P.O. does not deliver the package? I have all the tracking info I can supply to paypal, but if the package does not get there will paypal refund the buyer under protection plan even if paid via F&F?

If the Post Office does not deliver the package, you probably shouldn't expect your money back, let me just say that. As the sender of the package, you will need to go to the Post Office to collect the insurance for non-delivery.

Fred.....the post office is the one who should pay. They are the weak link here. The buyer paid. You shipped. Your agent, the post office, didn't deliver. They should be of the hook. As the shipper, you will have to file the claim to get the money back. You will need the receipt from them and some form of proof of what the buyer paid like the paypal transaction and some other documentation to establish the goods in the package. Paypal shouldn't have to pay anything on this. A bummer that they have tied your funds up. If, for some reason, they refund the buyer and it still doesn't get delivered, file the claim with the post office and you will get the $2K in your pocket. If paypal refunds them and subsequently the package gets delivered, you are screwed on that one.......good luck!

Gary and Tom:

Thanks for the replies.

Gary, I did not expect to keep the payment if the package was not delivered.

I just thought that this is, as Tom noted, a post office problem that paypal should not have gotten involved in.

I figured I would file a claim with P.O. and refund the buyers money from the P.O.insurance payment.

However because the buyer initiated a claim with pypal, it now is. Even though payment was through F&F which we all thought (think?) has no claims.

So, now paypal keeps my money, refunds it to the buyer then as Tom notes the package shows up before my claim with the P.O. comes through and I am out the $$ and the items if the buyer is not on the up and up and repays me.

This may be a strategy of the buyer once he knew the package was lost. I saw no other reason he would start a claim with paypal so soon without waiting to see what the P.O. looking into the lost package turned up.

Right, Fred, it's as you said. F&F just means that neither side should expect Paypal protection, but it doesn't mean that Paypal can't get involved like it did here. (Paypal will probably limit both parties accounts going forward. However, you can probably just establish a new paypal account under your wife's info (or someone else in your family) and a new bank account if you need to.)

What you'll need to do to prevent the scenario that you mentioned above is to contact the Post Office and find out what is the soonest that you can file an insurance claim for a package not being delivered, and do that as soon as you possibly can. The last thing you want to happen is for the Post Office to deliver the package after paypal pays the claim out of your pocket. Then the Post Office would not reimburse you. I'm not a lawyer and have no clue what I'm saying here, but if that situation did occur, the buyer may be guilty of mail fraud, and you may be able to do something there.

How long has the package been in limbo? I have had packages go off the grid, spinning its wheels at a Post Office for 2 weeks. Then, with no additional movement on the tracking number, suddenly show as "Out For Delivery" a thousand miles away.:eek:

Was the package sent registered mail? If so it can take up to two weeks to deliver. For security reasons the package will be in limbo on usps site. Not sure if mentioned.


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It doesn't seem like enough time has passed for real concern to have set in yet.

If anyone ever receives a gift or F&F (whatever you want to call it) and the buyer notates what it is for simple refund the payment and let them know they should either leave the fields blank (just type in dollar amount and send) - or cover the fees and pay normally.

There is NOT supposed to be any protection for the buying party in F&F so members shouldn't send it if they don't completely trust the other party.

Being this buyer notated it, I would have refunded him completely and told him I can only accept regular and to tack on the 3% - there should never be any exceptions to this rule, this is why paypal disables accounts.

There's really nothing you can do other than claim you didn't know it was F&F and hope they receive the item.

If the buyer is a member here, please please out them.

To answer some of the questions above:

The package was sent Priority mail insured not registered.

It was scheduled to be delivered April 28th. It has not moved since that date.

Sean, as I believe I mentoned before, the buyer is not on Net54

Still hoping it shows up.

Final Resolution
 

For those who wonder...

Paypal just refunded $2000 to my buyer after he filed a claim after having paid via family and friends.

So much for buyers sending funds that way having no "protection"

The package was found by the P.O. and just returned to me. For some reason they said the address was not found even though I used the same address before!

But the kicker is, the buyer now does not want me to resend it. He says there is "bad karma" with the whole thing!!!

Guess I won't be doing business with him again!

Wow! That was an adventure. I suppose it could have ended uglier though. As long as there are no residual Pay Pal heartaches, you just have to go through the re-selling game.:)

That buyer sounds like a jerk.


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He filed a claim after just one week?
That's pretty harsh for a friend or family member to do.

I had to suppress the laughter on that one.


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