The Superiority of SGC
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I just got notified by PWCC that one of my cards purchased from a PWCC auction last November, a 1948 Leaf Joe Dimaggio, was indeed an altered card, and that they wanted to issue me a refund so that they could take it out of circulation by turning it over to law enforcement. It was originally a PSA 3 (PQ), but just looked too sharp for the assigned grade, so I cracked it out and sent it to SGC. Unfortunately, it came back from SGC as an unholdered card that was deemed to have been trimmed. The card is now in the mail to PWCC so I can be refunded once they have verified that this was the card in question.
My point is this: With PSA's reputation as the most conservative grading company out there, I'm pretty sure that a sizable portion of those altered cards have gone this same route and have eventually ended up in the hands of SGC at some point, yet SGC has yet to be implicated in the slabgate scandal. While I'm sure they have allowed some conserved cards to pass through their process and receive a numerical grade, so far, it doesn't look like the trimmed or recolored cards are getting through like they have passed through those card sieves known as PSA and Beckett. The only conclusion that I can draw is that SGC has superior graders. |
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Please update when/if PWCC(Pre War Card Conservators) actually refund your purchase price. |
Too early to tell; SGC has a broken cert number checker which makes it difficult to recreate submissions from their website. Plus, they're likely the 2nd or 3rd choice for Moser to submit vintage cards, with #1 and #2 being PSA.
I'm surprised that PWCC is going to take your card back since you cracked it out of the PSA holder on your own. |
I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, but a single example is not exactly a robust body of evidence.
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He doesn't say he told PWCC it was removed from the holder.
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Some high ticket SGC is starting to show up on BO, by the way. E.g.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2827 |
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I agree with others, I would like to know if PWCC provides a refund since you cracked the card out of the PSA holder. I would not think they could turn over to law enforcement.
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I think the OP was looking for a bump. Or he is misstating his reasoning for taking the card out of the PSA holder If someone thinks a card looks too sharp for the assigned grade, that sounds like he thinks that it's undergraded and has nothing to do with a concern whether it's altered or not. Unless there's some practice of undergrading altered cards that I am unaware of.
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For what it's worth, PSA graded it and SGC caught the trim.
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And yeah, the trimming is insane that they aren't spotting. All those times when you look at a Heritage auction and see high graded cards that you think have funny borders? They're ALL trimmed. Not some -- all. |
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I was looking at 51 mantles today and it seemed the higher the grade and the more centered the more extra room there was in the holder. Weirdly the beaters filled the whole area in the slab way more often. |
That recently uncovered bleached Ruth SGC graded is a beauty.
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For a while, I felt since it was in a holder, it was good. The amount t of high grade cards that look trimmed always bothered me. I'm a small fish though, no body missing my revenue
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If it bothers you please send it to me for safe keeping.:) |
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If at home another trick I use is scan(1200dpi) the card front and back. Then put the scan on the big a$$ TVs we all seem to have. When the card is two and a half feet by 4 foot it is pretty easy to see most alterations. |
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Cleaning, in general, is an accepted practice with most collectors so if one can't discern what products (no smell) were used to clean a card then how can a TPG not accept the card as real and give it a number grade? Imo, comparing this to a trimmed card is not an apple to apple comparison. I believe most would accept a card that has been soaked but fully reject a card that has been trimmed and/or recolored. Having before and after photos when purchasing is not an option for most collectors so even if a card looks a little faded or doesn't present the best, most collectors would just assume time and the sun got to it over the years. Personally, and although they are not perfect, my grader of choice if and when the time comes will be SGC, which I have stated many times here. |
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Dale, maybe you're confusing a soak in distilled water with a chemical bath with a bleaching agent. One is reasonably well accepted, the other is not. Moser is doing the latter, along with a whole host of other alterations.
As to whether the TPGs should catch them, they all claim to be able to, and that's why they charge up to $5,000 per card to authenticate, detect alterations, and grade cards. The fact that they're either not using the proper techniques to detect alterations or they're unable to detect them at all, they promise that they can. They should either do their jobs properly or stop lying to their customers. |
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I am unsure if the technology exists or not but if the TPG's don't have the technololgy that can detect bleach or peroxide, and the smell test doesn't work, then how can they not grade those cards? :confused: I have never sent a card in for grading nor have I ever soaked a card but I couldn't imagine having my cards sent back as ungradable because someone guessed that I had soaked them in bleach or peroxide. Edit: Just read Peter's thread here on the SGC Joe Jackson card. Do detectable means exist for detecting bleach or peroxide and if so, is it safe to say they weren't utilized when this card was graded? https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3297 |
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None of the traditional methods to detect bleach that I've heard of would be acceptable. It *may* be possible to check with a spectrograph, but I haven't read of anyone doing it. Bleaching is done sometimes in some actual conservation. https://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/Bleaching_(PCC) See the section on appropriateness, and section 2.6 on testing. Note, none of that applies to some guy with a tray full of stuff from the grocery store.... |
SGC needs to fix their cert lookup. Most of what I have bought from PWCC are in SGC holders. Since I am indifferent between SGA and PSA I tend to get outbid on most of the PSA cards I try for. Without the cert lookup the super smart people putting together Moser submissions cannot uncover additional SGC cards that are likely suspect.
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Of course it would help, as well as consignment houses like Greg Morris and painthistorian and others who have sold raw cards to Whitman111 over the years to upload those scans to a file sharing service for the blowout guys to have more photos for comparisons to identify even more tainted cards.
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I completely agree with the original statement about SGC being head and shoulders above. Last year, I bought a very nice 51 Bowman Football Norm Van Brocklin, PSA 5 on ebay. However, I wanted the holder to be uniform with my other SGC cards and sent it to SGC. Wasn't even looking for a bump. SGC sent it back with the Scarlett letter "A." I measured it and, you guessed it, came up just an eyelash short..trimmed. SGC caught it, PSA did not. Period.
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They're amazing! : sample size 1
They can't tell autographs signed two years on T206s from ones signed when players were actually alive: sample size 12 They can't tell if $10k+ cards have been chemically bleached: sample size 3 and counting |
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