Quote:
Originally Posted by jgannon
Yeah, Chance had a great year, and really at this point, I don't think anyone's arguing that Chavez wasn't a pitcher's park. And throughout this thread I haven't been saying Koufax, or anyone else was "the best". Ultimately it's really impossible to compare eras. I think Johnson, Grove, and Spahn are all excellent candidates for the title. While Koufax, may not have the years to qualify for everyone's all-time great list, I do think his incredible run, and his artistry on the mound occurred because he was truly a great pitcher and not merely a creature of the home park he pitched in. His 1963 - 1966 run stirs the imagination.
It has been noted that Drysdale and Podres' pitching splits show that they enjoyed better home E.R.A.'s. However, neither pitcher's E.R.A. were consistently as low as Koufax's. Drysdale posted great home E.R.A.'s, and his amazing run of six shutouts in 1968, four of which were at home, really lowered his home E.R.A. that year. But with the exception of that year, his home E.R.A.'s were all in the 2.00's. Not too shabby, but not challenging what Koufax's were.
Podres, while also posting better E.R.A.'s at home in 1962 and 1963, his 1963 E.R.A. split was 3.49/3.60 (home/away).
The numbers show that Koufax was one hell of a pitcher, as no Dodger pitcher achieved what he did at Chavez Ravine. You have to be great to pitch as well as he did at Chavez. No other Dodger was posting 0.85.
Dean Chance had his great year there in 1964, for sure. Chance's E.R.A.'s at Chavez were always better than on the road. His home E.R.A. pitching split in 1962 was 2.76/3.22. 1963 was 2.96/3.45. And 1965 again, and here it really is significant, his home E.R.A. was 2.33/4/15. Chavez factor duly acknowledged. The Angels move out of Chavez for 1966, and for the first time, his away E.R.A. is higher.
So Chavez is a factor. But I argue that Koufax's numbers show that he was great even if there is that factor. No one consistently posted stronger E.R.A.'s at Chavez than Koufax. His strikeout totals also speak to his dominance. And the idea that Koufax was less than stellar on the road, takes a significant hit when you go out with a 1.96 away E.R.A. Koufax was a great pitcher in Chavez Ravine, but not because of Chavez Ravine.
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Noone is arguing that Koufax wasn't a great pitcher outside of Chavez Ravine either though. I have gone to great pains to make it clear that Koufax was most likely the best pitcher in baseball from 1962-1966 if you just double his road numbers. And that fact, along with the corresponding insane strikeout numbers, likely gets him into the HOF under the "Kirby Puckett what if rule" even if you just double the road numbers and forget all about his performance at Chavez Ravine.
And also nobody is arguing about Koufax vs Drysdale or Podres and that isn't the standard of this thread anyway. This is about best ever.
All I am saying is that Koufax was a great pitcher, likely a Hall of Famer simply for his road performance, but that he was GREATLY helped by his home park. Those years you speak of, that legendary five year performance, was a perfect storm of immense talent meeting a way to harness and control said talent coupled with the opening of one of the best pitchers parks in the history of baseball. All three were the reason for those unbelievable seasons but only the first two are ever mentioned.