Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911
For the millionth time, Sandy being better than the other Dodgers is irrelevant. 100% irrelevant. The discussion is the best lefty of all time, not the best dodgers starter of the 60's. Literally nobody is disputing this. Outperforming his teammates proves nothing but that he was better than his teammates. Although in 1964, he wasn't even better than Chance who shared the same home park (almost like there's a connection here...). Can we stop making up arguments to argue against because they are easier to dispute than the ones actually being made? This is beyond absurd.
Nobody has alleged there were no good hitters in the 1960's. Nobody! It is very, very, very simple to see that it is a weak hitting period. We can look at the runs being scored every single year in baseball history. We can see the rule changes and expansion align 100% with this reduction. It was a weak offensive period, whether or not you like it.
For the final time, these arguments are absolutely irrelevant to the actual question, for or against. Your feelings and romanticism for this period do not overcome actual math.
Could we maybe address the ACTUAL topic of this thread, the best left hander of all time, not the best dodgers pitcher of the 60's? Half the posts are making and refuting these increasingly irrelevant claims that are either absurd or proven wrong by even a cursory check of the data and still have nothing to do with the actual question even if they were logical or true.
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You still don't get it. Not everyone was going to post an 0.85 E.R.A. in Chavez no matter how good the park was. To say that Koufax was primarily a product of the ballpark, doesn't take into account that different people were going to perform differently in the ballpark due to their ability. That's why I am comparing him to the other Dodger pitchers.
You just have refused to acknowledge that Dodger Stadium or no Dodger Stadium, Koufax excelled there because he was great in his own right. The home/road splits are being overblown. 2.31 and 1.96 weren't exactly bad road E.R.A.'s.
This debate has been a side one, because one of the reasons people here have dismissed him as not being the all-time greatest lefty has been that he was merely a creature of his ballpark. I say you have to be a great pitcher first to throw 0.85 in any ballpark.
Just skip it.