Posted By:
JoannA few other thoughts ..
1) First, BRAVO to this board for this thread. It has, with the exception of a few snide remarks (that actually stick out like sore thumbs this time), been civil and productive. I have strong views that I probably won't be talked off of. However, it is still very instructive for me to see well-thought out arguments for the opposite side, especially from people that I respect and even admire. I have saved this thread because it does have such a good debate.
2) Yes there has been revisionist history. We went in to Iraq for WMD. When none were found the spin machine seamlessly said we went in for terrorism, and no one blinked. Then it changed to spreading democracy, and no one noticed. I don't know if it reminded me more of "1984" or "Star Wars" (these aren't the droids you're looking for), but it was wierd the way people just accepted and repeated whatever was said.
3) The civil rights thing is scary. We have a whole generation of people coming into young adulthood that have no memory of the Soviet Union and how it operated. All of the internal spying, wiretapping, neighbors turning in neighbors, etc, was done in the name of Homeland Security. To uncover internal enemies of the state. You know, like the Al Qaeda among us. To them, a totalitarian society has to be some banana republic or tinhorn dictatorship. I don't think they really see that those things can happen in a superpower. So they don't really recognize the parallels between what's going on with our civil liberties now and how the Soviets ended up once they started down the same path of being obsessed with internal enemies. (And yes, China is a totalitarian superpower. But it's domestic policies are oddly underplayed here, and most people don't really have a good idea of that structure.)
4) And finally, one that I think is kind of funny. Did anyone catch a week or so ago when Bill Clinton said that, if Hillary were elected, he and his friend Bush 41 planned to go on a world tour to let other countries know that the US is "back in business for commerce and cooperation" or something like that? Well of course Bush 41 immediately said he'd never planned any such thing. Clinton clearly spoke wrongly to say it - no doubt he stuck his foot in it - but I don't think he just completely fabricated it either. I have this mental image of the two of them (who are fairly close) sitting on some train to some humanitarian effort they were on, playing cards and drinking too much scotch, and basically hatching this plan of doing the World Apology Tour as soon as Bush 43 is out of office. Bush 41 is a decent and smart man, and he has quietly but very obviously distanced himself from the arrogant, bullying and graceless administration of his son. Yeah, Clinton completely screwed up by mentioning it on the record, but my money is on the two of them actually having had some conversation about it - even if not entirely serious. The visual of the cards and the scotch really cracked me up.
Joann
Oh, and Joe D - I still like you too. 
But I do doubt that Al Qaeda is at all preoccupied in Afghanistan or Iraq. It sounds like they have enough space in Afg to do what they want or need to. Also, the people that did 9/11 were very educated and even wealthy. They stayed in small pockets in and planned the attacks, with a lot of technological and financial resources, plus college and graduate educations. Somehow I just don't think these are the same guys we see on TV hiding behind brick piles in Baghdad or making IED's in the outlying areas.