[Hankphenom]

[QUOTE=BillyCoxDodgers3B;2414130
None of this really matters to me, as all three rightly belong in of these types of discussions. I just feel it odd that Young wouldn't be discussed more, to the point that Travis had never heard his name mentioned as a contender. A five-time 30 game winner and 10 time 20 game winner, among his jaw-dropping litany of other accomplishments. 511 wins?! Now, there will never be another 300 win pitcher, and Cy nearly doubled that.[/QUOTE]
When I wrote my biography of WaJo 30 years ago, I included an appendix entitled "Was he the greatest?" I didn't go in for statistical comparisons so much as outline the major discussions and polls on that question over the years, concluding that according to those, Johnson was the overwhelming choice. But I also named thirteen pitchers, including Koufax and Young, for whom I thought a strong case could be made, using various metrics, for that honor. Today I would have added several more names to that list. In trying to explain, or perhaps I should say defend, my (slightly biased!) opinion that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever, I put it this way: if you have the ten top experts on baseball history and pose that question to them, I believe at least four or five would name Johnson and you'd have a smattering of other names, probably including at least one or two for Young. I really do think that's true. It's not a complete consensus, but pretty close, and in any case makes great grist for the discussion mill, as it is here. With Koufax, you have the short career and relatively small numbers to deal with. As for Young, if all or most of his numbers had been posted in the 20th century, he'd win hands down. Unfortunately for him, there are many pitchers from the 1880s and 1890s with gaudy numbers who not even the average baseball fan has ever heard of, so I think there is quite a bit of discounting of his big stats for that reason, justified or not. His thing was that he pitched a LOT over many years to post those numbers, but didn't have the strikeouts, shutouts, E.R.A., etc., to go along with them. And that's not meant to diminish what he accomplished in any way--he was put in the HOF in the 2nd election, for gosh sakes. It's just that, in the opinion of most back then, and now, he didn't quite clear the highest bar of all, for GOAT.