Where has all the 19th century baseball memorabilia gone?

[GaryPassamonte]

It seems that nice 19th century baseball memorabilia has dried up. What do you think? Is the good stuff locked up in collections and staying there for the long term?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

It seems that nice 19th century baseball memorabilia has dried up. What do you think? Is the good stuff locked up in collections and staying there for the long term?

"Gone to collections, every one," to paraphrase Pete Seeger's famous "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Every once in a while I think of all the rare and unusual items in my niche of the hobby--WaJo and the Washington Senators/Nationals--of which I've seen an example or two or three many years ago and then never again. Of course, decades had to pass before I realized just how scarce those things were. Just one example of many: the first two Washington yearbooks, from 1949 and 1950. I've handled a number of those in my time as a dealer, but it's been 10 or 15 years now since I've seen either of them. Shows, auctions, eBay, etc., nada, all now comfortably residing in collections, I suppose, and until their owners pass away or have another reason to put their stuff back onto the market, there won't be any for a good while. I'm happy to have picked up some cool and rare stuff in the old days, but I do wish I hadn't been so cavalier in passing on things that I figured I could always get the next time around if I wanted to, because in many instances that time just never came around again. It's the old collector's lesson: when you see something you like at a reasonable price, go ahead and pick it up!

[perezfan]

Yup.... it's staggering how all the good 19th century stuff has fallen off the face of the earth. I guess we had a false sense of it being somewhat plentiful back in the early 2000s. I can easily recall when the REA, Mastro, Lelands and Hunt Catalogs would routinely devote a dozen full pages to 19th century memorabilia. Now you get perhaps 4-5 lots per auction.

Makes me sorry I didn't pursue some pieces harder, but more so am very thankful I was able to secure a few great things that are not resurfacing.

[ooo-ribay]

Hank and Mark would know better than I, since I don’t collect 19th century, but it stands to reason an already scarce group of stuff has found its way into permanent collections. That is, until the owners die. None of us are getting any younger. I have no real plan for my collection. I’ve tossed some ideas around with fellow Giants collectors but we’re all kind of the same age. I don’t worry too much about it….it’s been a fun hobby, if nothing else.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Hank and Mark would know better than I, since I don’t collect 19th century, but it stands to reason an already scarce group of stuff has found its way into permanent collections. That is, until the owners die. None of us are getting any younger. I have no real plan for my collection. I’ve tossed some ideas around with fellow Giants collectors but we’re all kind of the same age. I don’t worry too much about it….it’s been a fun hobby, if nothing else.

And it's not just 19th century at all, of course. Many of the early Washington pennants that you guys have come up with are the only examples I've ever seen and probably ever will see, and of the others where there have been duplicates it's been on the order of two or maybe three but rarely any more than that. I guess it's understandable in that they are so old and fragile, but it illustrates how few of these things have actually survived for us to collect today.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

"Gone to collections, every one," to paraphrase Pete Seeger's famous "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Every once in a while I think of all the rare and unusual items in my niche of the hobby--WaJo and the Washington Senators/Nationals--of which I've seen an example or two or three many years ago and then never again. Of course, decades had to pass before I realized just how scarce those things were. Just one example of many: the first two Washington yearbooks, from 1949 and 1950. I've handled a number of those in my time as a dealer, but it's been 10 or 15 years now since I've seen either of them. Shows, auctions, eBay, etc., nada, all now comfortably residing in collections, I suppose, and until their owners pass away or have another reason to put their stuff back onto the market, there won't be any for a good while. I'm happy to have picked up some cool and rare stuff in the old days, but I do wish I hadn't been so cavalier in passing on things that I figured I could always get the next time around if I wanted to, because in many instances that time just never came around again. It's the old collector's lesson: when you see something you like at a reasonable price, go ahead and pick it up!

Hank, to refresh your memory after 10 - 15 years, and for those who have never seen these, here are pics of the covers of my 1949 and 1950 Washington Senators yearbooks. Interestingly, there is this stampimg inside the 1949 yearbook that shows that it was once in the possession of a hobby icon.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

"Gone to collections, every one," to paraphrase Pete Seeger's famous "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Every once in a while I think of all the rare and unusual items in my niche of the hobby--WaJo and the Washington Senators/Nationals--of which I've seen an example or two or three many years ago and then never again. Of course, decades had to pass before I realized just how scarce those things were. Just one example of many: the first two Washington yearbooks, from 1949 and 1950. I've handled a number of those in my time as a dealer, but it's been 10 or 15 years now since I've seen either of them. Shows, auctions, eBay, etc., nada, all now comfortably residing in collections, I suppose, and until their owners pass away or have another reason to put their stuff back onto the market, there won't be any for a good while. I'm happy to have picked up some cool and rare stuff in the old days, but I do wish I hadn't been so cavalier in passing on things that I figured I could always get the next time around if I wanted to, because in many instances that time just never came around again. It's the old collector's lesson: when you see something you like at a reasonable price, go ahead and pick it up!

Hank, many, many years ago, dealer Bill Rosenthal convinced me that this small (approx. 5.5" x 8.5"), 16-page, 1947 pamphlet is actually the Washington Senators first "yearbook," which resulted in my probably greatly overpaying for it. Page 4 contains a nice tribute to your grandfather, who passed a year earlier.

We've all heard the saying, "Washington is first in war, first in peace, and last in the American League." This was pretty much true in the early years of the AL. But, as the chart on Page 8 of this "yearbook" shows, Washington did NOT ONCE finish in last place in the AL from 1910 through 1943, a period of 34 years!!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hank, to refresh your memory after 10 - 15 years, and for those who have never seen these, here are pics of the covers of my 1949 and 1950 Washington Senators yearbooks. Interestingly, there is this stamping inside the 1949 yearbook that shows that it was once in the possession of a hobby icon.

You mean 1950, Val, not 1959. Thanks, I'm quite familiar with both of them, having handled a number of them in my time as a dealer, and have Tom Holster's wonderfully done repros to remind me. When's the last time you saw either for sale, though? Been a long time for me. As for Goldfaden, I met him at his shop in L.A. in the late 90s, as you say, a real hobby oldtimer specializing in pubs.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hank, many, many years ago, dealer Bill Rosenthal convinced me that this small (approx. 5.5" x 8.5"), 16-page, 1947 pamphlet is actually the Washington Senators first "yearbook," which resulted in my probably greatly overpaying for it. Page 4 contains a nice tribute to your grandfather, who passed a year earlier. We've all heard the saying, "Washington is first in war, first in peace, and last in the American League." This was pretty much true in the early years of the AL. But, as the chart on Page 8 of this "yearbook" shows, Washington did NOT ONCE finish in last place in the AL from 1910 through 1943, a period of 34 years!!

Not surprising to hear the words "Rosenthal" and "overpaid" in the same sentence, Val! It's always been a matter of controversy as to whether this booklet should be counted as a yearbook, although I believe it is in most price guides. I've always thought of it as a "pre-yearbook" or a "photo book" due to its size and construction and the fact that there was a gap in '48 between this one and the start of the yearbook era in 1949. Similarly to the '49 and '50 yearbooks, I would routinely buy and sell these during my 20 years as a dealer, but now they seem to have dried up completely and I haven't seen one for sale in many years. Thanks for showing these rare Washington pieces.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You mean 1950, Val, not 1959. Thanks, I'm quite familiar with both of them, having handled a number of them in my time as a dealer, and have Tom Holster's wonderfully done repros to remind me. When's the last time you saw either for sale, though? Been a long time for me. As for Goldfaden, I met him at his shop in L.A. in the late 90s, as you say, a real hobby oldtimer specializing in pubs.

Hank, thanks for catching my goof, which I have now corrected. Now that you mention it, it has been a good while since I've seen either the 1949 or 1950 yearbook for sale.

Speaking of Tom Holster, I keep Tom Holster's wonderful, 1995 soft-cover book, "Washington Senators Checklist Book Volume 1,"on the corner of my desk and refer to it often. Do you happen to know if Tom is still involved in the hobby?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Not surprising to hear the words "Rosenthal" and "overpaid" in the same sentence, Val! It's always been a matter of controversy as to whether this booklet should be counted as a yearbook, although I believe it is in most price guides. I've always thought of it as a "pre-yearbook" or a "photo book" due to its size and construction and the fact that there was a gap in '48 between this one and the start of the yearbook era in 1949. Similarly to the '49 and '50 yearbooks, I would routinely buy and sell these during my 20 years as a dealer, but now they seem to have dried up completely and I haven't seen one for sale in many years. Thanks for showing these rare Washington pieces.

Anyone else remember Rosenthal's ads in the old SCD? Never any pics or images... just one-line descriptions of each piece he was selling. Example...

"3/4 sized NY Giants pennant depicts a Willard Mullin style Giant looking sideways inside the Polo Grounds, with ball behind his back. EX+"

That's how we bought most things back in the 90s (outside of shows). There were no provided images, so we had to know our stuff and put our full trust in Dealers' descriptions.

[jbsports33]

Yes! the 19th century baseball memorabilia has dried up and only see it within larger auction houses or larger shows. I use to see it more often in my travels, just not the same anymore - collectors with $ or the big companies are getting their hands on it faster these days. Still looking for those W1 poker type baseball cards and just never see them. Miss seeing stuff in person, items must still be out there - just not at the local level anymore

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hank, thanks for catching my goof, which I have now corrected. Now that you mention it, it has been a good while since I've seen either the 1949 or 1950 yearbook for sale. Speaking of Tom Holster, I keep Tom Holster's wonderful, 1995 soft-cover book, "Washington Senators Checklist Book Volume 1,"on the corner of my desk and refer to it often. Do you happen to know if Tom is still involved in the hobby?

Val, I'm sad to report that Tom passed away several years ago. We were great friends, and though I didn't see him often, we spoke on the phone a lot. At some point, he decided to sell all his stuff and pull back from the hobby to devote more time to his growing family, and I think he was happier for it. We are the beneficiaries of his passion for all things Senators, though, and his checklist book represents years of work. Tom was a wonderful man and a great hobbyist while he was involved. I miss him a lot.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I think it’s just a matter of time before 19th Century material comes out of the woodwork. That’s one segment of the hobby that really hasn’t seen a huge run up yet as compared to pre-war iconic cards of Ruth, Jackson, Wagner, etc. Once we get a couple of huge sales at auction, you’ll be surprised how much comes up for sale/auction. Nobody wants to be the first out of fear of leaving too much money on the table.

[bigfanNY]

I have been collecting for a long time and early Baseball memorabilia especially from the 1870's and early 1880's has always been scarce. Part of that scarcity comes from the fact that there was only one leauge..The National leauge. Teams struggled in the early years and played far fewer games. Scorecards and tickets from the first few years of the National Leauge are extremely scarce. And a few of the best collections made their way to the Hall of Fame.
Maybe the celebration of 150 years of the NL next year will bring out some items. I hope so but even if they do pop up demand is gonna sweep them up pretty quickly.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I think it’s just a matter of time before 19th Century material comes out of the woodwork. That’s one segment of the hobby that really hasn’t seen a huge run up yet as compared to pre-war iconic cards of Ruth, Jackson, Wagner, etc. Once we get a couple of huge sales at auction, you’ll be surprised how much comes up for sale/auction. Nobody wants to be the first out of fear of leaving too much money on the table.

Interesting idea. I have no idea if you’ll be proven correct.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I have been collecting for a long time and early Baseball memorabilia especially from the 1870's and early 1880's has always been scarce. Part of that scarcity comes from the fact that there was only one leauge..The National leauge. Teams struggled in the early years and played far fewer games. Scorecards and tickets from the first few years of the National Leauge are extremely scarce. And a few of the best collections made their way to the Hall of Fame.
Maybe the celebration of 150 years of the NL next year will bring out some items. I hope so but even if they do pop up demand is gonna sweep them up pretty quickly.

How many were kept in the first place and, even if they were, how many survivors are going to keep them after the original owners died 125+ years ago? For the most part, I don’t think people saw any “value” in this stuff back in the early days….especially for “throw away” items like tickets and scorecards. Things have changed so much….just think of the number of bats and uniforms a modern player goes through compared to the 19th century and even 50 years ago. And, these days, someone is always there to grab those uniforms and bats.

[murphusa]

I am constantly emailing, texting and writing my old customers to try and judge their vision of where or what they are doing with their collections.

I also contact estate/divorce lawyers in my area letting them know about my services, along with people who run estate sales

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

How many were kept in the first place and, even if they were, how many survivors are going to keep them after the original owners died 125+ years ago? For the most part, I don’t think people saw any “value” in this stuff back in the early days….especially for “throw away” items like tickets and scorecards. Things have changed so much….just think of the number of bats and uniforms a modern player goes through compared to the 19th century and even 50 years ago. And, these days, someone is always there to grab those uniforms and bats.

From my experience most of the tickets and scorecards, from the 19th century or TOC, that I have acquired or have seen, survived because they were kept in scrapbooks. If they were in a scrapbook they survived and were kept by relatives, otherwise they were thrown away for the most part.

[ValKehl]

Many old scorecards may have fallen victim to paper salvage drives during wartime, especially during WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_...939%E2%80%9350

[aelefson]

As an avid antique shopper, I have found enough 19th century memorabilia to keep me generally satisfied and sometimes overwhelmed. Here is a tintype (in case) I bought at the Brimfield Antique show a few weeks ago. In May I bought a full sized lemon peel ball there. I have also bought many cool items through ephemera and historical dealers. Unfortunately, bargains are rare, but my favorite part about buying in non traditional spaces is getting a chance to own items that are fresh to the hobby.

To answer the OP (I owe you an email Gary!), I feel that some of it shows up in the non traditional spaces but there are many of us who look for things there. It does help not to have to compete at large hobby auctions for these items though.

Alan

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by aelefson

As an avid antique shopper, I have found enough 19th century memorabilia to keep me generally satisfied and sometimes overwhelmed. Here is a tintype (in case) I bought at the Brimfield Antique show a few weeks ago. In May I bought a full sized lemon peel ball there. I have also bought many cool items through ephemera and historical dealers. Unfortunately, bargains are rare, but my favorite part about buying in non traditional spaces is getting a chance to own items that are fresh to the hobby.

To answer the OP (I owe you an email Gary!), I feel that some of it shows up in the non traditional spaces but there are many of us who look for things there. It does help not to have to compete at large hobby auctions for these items though.

Alan

Hi Alan,
That tintype is a beauty, Alan! Very cool!

[aelefson]

Thank you Scott! It is my first cased tintype of baseball players. I wish I could make out the team name on the uniforms.

Alan

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by aelefson

Thank you Scott! It is my first cased tintype of baseball players. I wish I could make out the team name on the uniforms.

Alan

Looks like Zotselic.

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

Looks like Zotselic.

I think it might be South Otselic NY. 1870's 1880's it was a popular town with a large store and thriving business. If you are close a visit to their library might be worth it.
Jmho..

Jonathan

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I think it might be South Otselic NY. 1870's 1880's it was a popular town with a large store and thriving business. If you are close a visit to their library might be worth it.
Jmho..

Jonathan

I’ll bet that’s it!

[aelefson]

Thank you guys! I think that might be it. I really appreciate the help Jonathan and Jim. I would never have come up with South Ostelic on my own. I will try to visit at some point to do some research (and hopefully antique shopping).

Alan

[Michael B]

Alan,

In Adobe I removed the color, flipped the image and enhanced brightness and contrast. You can read S Otselic.

image redo copy.jpg

[jbsports33]

Nice Photo Alan! Hope all is well - Jimmy

Originally Posted by aelefson

As an avid antique shopper, I have found enough 19th century memorabilia to keep me generally satisfied and sometimes overwhelmed. Here is a tintype (in case) I bought at the Brimfield Antique show a few weeks ago. In May I bought a full sized lemon peel ball there. I have also bought many cool items through ephemera and historical dealers. Unfortunately, bargains are rare, but my favorite part about buying in non traditional spaces is getting a chance to own items that are fresh to the hobby.

To answer the OP (I owe you an email Gary!), I feel that some of it shows up in the non traditional spaces but there are many of us who look for things there. It does help not to have to compete at large hobby auctions for these items though.

Alan

[aelefson]

Thank you Michael! That is a lot clearer. Thank you Jimmy! I missed seeing you at Brimfield in September but it was great to see you in July (and great to see Barry and your brother too).

[ruth-gehrig]

Perhaps I sound a bit naive when I say this but I believe there are still alot of great baseball antiques out there that haven't been discovered. Maybe I'm to optimistic but hopeful . There used to be a poster on the board that seemed like all he had was 19th century baseball that was part of his family's collection. Incredibly high grade amazing stuff if I remember correctly! I have a few lemon peels, a belt ball and some bats along with some advertising but not a ton of 19th century. I think alot of collectors have a little from the timeframe so it's spread out quite a bit. Like most collectors I enjoy my collection. I don't sell a lot but definitely more inclined to hang onto the items that would be the most difficult to replace. 19th century fits that bill.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Perhaps I sound a bit naive when I say this but I believe there are still alot of great baseball antiques out there that haven't been discovered. Maybe I'm to optimistic but hopeful . There used to be a poster on the board that seemed like all he had was 19th century baseball that was part of his family's collection. Incredibly high grade amazing stuff if I remember correctly! I have a few lemon peels, a belt ball and some bats along with some advertising but not a ton of 19th century. I think alot of collectors have a little from the timeframe so it's spread out quite a bit. Like most collectors I enjoy my collection. I don't sell a lot but definitely more inclined to hang onto the items that would be the most difficult to replace. 19th century fits that bill.

I think both things are true: a lot of cards and memorabilia has dried up (collected up) and getting tougher and tougher to find, AND there is lots more to be discovered and put into the marketplace. But think of cards and how rare major "finds" are these days, and that provides a clue as to the relative percentages of stuff found and stuff yet to be. Thousands of dealers and collectors have been beating the bushes for 50 years now, and few people in the general population don't know that grandpa's old cards and stuff is worth something, but that doesn't mean there still aren't old trunks in attics and basements that no one has opened in decades, so that aspect of the hobby is not over yet, but getting less frequent. Soon it will pretty much be the recycling of collections on the selling side, if we're not there already.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I think both things are true: a lot of cards and memorabilia has dried up (collected up) and getting tougher and tougher to find, AND there is lots more to be discovered and put into the marketplace. But think of cards and how rare major "finds" are these days, and that provides a clue as to the relative percentages of stuff found and stuff yet to be. Thousands of dealers and collectors have been beating the bushes for 50 years now, and few people in the general population don't know that grandpa's old cards and stuff is worth something, but that doesn't mean there still aren't old trunks in attics and basements that no one has opened in decades, so that aspect of the hobby is not over yet, but getting less frequent. Soon it will pretty much be the recycling of collections on the selling side, if we're not there already.

Agree on all counts... most has probably been rooted out by now, but no doubt some rare/early stuff is still hiding in peoples' attics, basements, etc.

Some of it may require a "minor miracle" in order to be uncovered... like the Dean Brothers Ad Sign that was found behind an interior wall, and being used for insulation.

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree on all counts... most has probably been rooted out by now, but no doubt some rare/early stuff is still hiding in peoples' attics, basements, etc.

Some of it may require a "minor miracle" in order to be uncovered... like the Dean Brothers Ad Sign that was found behind an interior wall, and being used for insulation.

Amazed at the things they stuffed in walls for insulation! Some of my best advertising was found "accidently" I guess you could say. Pieces are still out there. Common? No. The new to the hobby pieces are what get me excited! The same old pieces bought and sold do get boring!

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Amazed at the things they stuffed in walls for insulation! Some of my best advertising was found "accidently" I guess you could say. Pieces are still out there. Common? No. The new to the hobby pieces are what get me excited! The same old pieces bought and sold do get boring!

Agree on both points. What I find interesting is that sometimes as these items get recycled the prices can jump drastically. And not always upward. Especially if an item gets recycled quickly. More than one item in my collection was purchased for a fraction of it high water mark. It is not easy to follow all the auctions Especially months like this when there are easily 10k items offered . And getting eyes on them is almost a full time endeavor.