Looking for honest opinions on Legendary's T-206 Eddie Plank

[JP]

I won the Eddie Plank in tonight's Legendary Auction, and I was hoping for a bit of feedback from the most educated vintage card guys in the hobby.....Net54.

First of all, I don't want this thread to be about Legendary/Mastro and any past Mastro indiscretions or future potential Legendary indiscretions. I know many people won't agree with me, and feel the company is the same as it ever was, but I am the kind of guy that likes to give second chances and/or the benefit of the doubt. So please, if possible, let's keep the anti-Legendary posts in the appropriate thread....which means elsewhere.

That being said, my question is about alterations and restoration. I feel like I got a hell of a deal buying this card at $18K. Does anyone think it is possible to hire out a restorer for a few grand to return this card to its previous "Very Good" condition? A PSA 3 Plank is worth around $75K, so any restoration that could guarantee a straight grade of any sort from PSA seems like it would be worthwhile. I was going to inquire to Joe Orlando if he could recommend somebody that could guarantee a complete restoration...

Thoughts?

[frankb22]

I think an A-Authentic is the best you can get once it's been altered.

With that said I think it's good looking card and would prefer an 18K
card like that vs a grade 1 costing double.

[calvindog]

Sounds like a pretty good business plan to me. I wish I had thought of it first.

PS -- let us know what Joe O had to say about your plan.

[JP]

Will do....

EDIT: Posted an edit because I wished to know whether the 150 back with the 30 factory had been confirmed yet, but I see that it has many times, including the Harris Collection version.

[teetwoohsix]

I just wanted to say congrats-I hope to one day own a Plank T206 myself.I would also echo what frankb22 said-I think any alteration by a professional would render the card an "A"-authentic.Unless the graders were unaware of the restoration.But that's a high profile card,so I'm sure it would be reviewed under lots of scrutiny.
That being said-you are a lucky man!!!Congrats on the awesome pick-up!!!

Sincerely,Clayton

[JP]

Thanks Clayton, this is definitely a big moment for me. It has been many years since I've owned a Plank, and while my previous one had a grade, this one is the best looking by far.

Now re: the alteration and removal, wasn't there an altered Wagner that was restored to its original form sold on Mastro or one of the other big auctions recently?

[teetwoohsix]

Yeah,but I think even after they took the altered card,and restored it back to the original,it still came back graded "A"-authentic.

[JP]

You appear to be correct... http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_95.html. Are there any other examples? If I can't restore it back to anything than what it already is "Authentic" then I think I'll keep it in it's beautiful PSA 8 appearance. May be the best looking Plank there is....all siliconed up!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JP

Now re: the alteration and removal, wasn't there an altered Wagner that was restored to its original form sold on Mastro or one of the other big auctions recently?

It was the card next to the one you won.

I think, but could be wrong, if all of the restoration was undone and not noticable, then it would/could get a grade. I think it would be a long shot. Of course some alterations probably can't be undone no matter what. Altered cards in correct holders have come a long way. If it were mine I would probably leave it alone. It's yours so do what makes you happy, have fun and enjoy it. Congrats.

[JP]

Leon, no the card next to the one I won was an ALTERED version....here

The one that we're referring to was a RESTORED one, in other words the alteration was completely undone. You can find that here with a video about the altering being undone here.

And the problem is, in the video Doug Allen even says that all of the restoration was completely reversed, and yet it still graded Authentic RESTORED instead of PSA 2 or whatever....


EDIT: Found that the listing says that all of the restoration couldn't be undone...the Wagner had some irreversible inpainting done....

[drc]

As a strictly financial opinion, I think you got a good deal on the card. I would have expected the card in its current state to sell for more.

[JP]

Originally Posted by drc

As a strictly financial opinion, I think you got a good deal on the card. I would have expected the card in its current state to sell for more.

Thanks! So did I frankly and I expected this lot to close in the middle of the night, but maybe the negative stigma helped me get a great deal. I have complete faith in Legendary until I am shown otherwise, and maybe this card can be flipped on the near future for a nice profit, but I'll probably talk myself out of that!

Upon further reading of the current Wagner, still labeled "Altered" even though the restoration was undone....I find that the restoration may not have been completely reversible as the listing does say:

"Under close examination, this Wagner still shows vestiges of inpainting, particularly in the area of a single heavy crease that lies in the top-right quadrant of the illustration’s orange background."

I'm guess since they couldn't reverse the inpainting, it has to stay "authentic" instead of getting a grade, which means my Plank is likely to stay "Authentic" no matter what. If that's the case, he's going to stay the way he is.

[drc]

I would leave it in its current good looking state. No matter what is done to it, I think it will always be considered altered, and it might seem odd to some to have a card restored to make it look worse. I think it is in its best state and I would expect it to resell for more in the future.

[FUBAR]

Leave it, and Congrats... an amazing card im sure we are all envious of!

[Rickyy]

I concur with the others. If I won it I'd leave it as is. Even in its "Authentic/Altered" state, its a beautiful looking card. If you are planning to sell it at some point down the line, I think you will come out ahead because I think you got it at a really good price. Congrats!

[ethicsprof]

Congrats on the acquisition!!!
Obviously, once altered it remains altered in perpetuity no matter how much effort is exerted to bring it back to its 'original state'.
just altered and altered and altered ad infinitum.

as the folks say, be happy and don't fret over these impossibilities.

all the best,
barry

[JP]

I appreciate the feedback, everyone. I will be leaving my "new and improved" Plank in its current condition. It was also remain in my possession unless I am offered something irresistible -- a mid to high grade Demmitt or a high grade Cobb. If you've got either, hit me up!

[barrysloate]

JP-congrats on the Plank, it has great eye appeal and does seem like a good deal. But I can't help but note something very funny about your original post:

You were going to ask Joe Orlando to recommend a good restorer? Shouldn't grading services and paper restorers kind of be natural enemies? Isn't it a grading service's worst nightmare that a paper restorer will do such a good job altering a card that the graders will not be able to detect it?

It's sort of like asking a mouse to recommend a good cat.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

Congrats on the acquisition!!!
Obviously, once altered it remains altered in perpetuity no matter how much effort is exerted to bring it back to its 'original state'.
just altered and altered and altered ad infinitum.

Hi Barry,

Though I agree with this sentiment (and my guess is a lot of other collectors do, too), the grading companies -- whether knowingly or unknowingly -- have a different take. Cards that have been altered and then have the alteration(s) completely removed definitely can receive numerical grades. Again, whether the grading companies assign the number knowing about the previous handiwork that was undone is an interesting question.

[JP]

That's true, Barry, but in a sense, it's also like asking a mouse which cat is the one he has to be most afraid of. I'm sure a mouse has more insight as to which cat to watch out for than a cockroach does.

I'm sure some REALLY high dollar cards have been sent into PSA that have been altered, and I'm sure that execs, possibly Joe included, have had to have tough conversations with some of these submitters to let them know their card has been rejected. The alterers may be considered by some to be bad guys, while at the same time the restorers may be something akin to historical preservationists. And it would surprise me greatly if Joe hasn't been asked a thousand times about who a card could be sent to in order to completely reverse an alteration. I'm sure that some of these therefore restored cards have been sent back to PSA and have been successfully graded. Who else would I have considered asking, because in the end PSA would have the final decision?

But the point is moot - the card seems to be irreversibly altered, and so I will just enjoy its enhanced facade and take it for what it's worth.

[Exhibitman]

Congrats, it is a very nice looking card and seems to have sold low. Whether that is overall economy, Legendary's rep, or something else I don't know, but I did think when I was going through the catalog that it was a really nice looking card. FWIW, I'd just leave it alone and enjoy it. I do have a very nice mint Cobb that I'd trade for it--of course, it is a 1976 Topps All Time All Star. Any interest?

[FUBAR]

maybe you can trade JP for his talking mouse he keeps referring to ;o)

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JP

Leon, no the card next to the one I won was an ALTERED version....here

Sorry about that. I got "altered" and "restored" mixed up. Flashback from Apocolypse Now hindered my thinking.

[JP]

Originally Posted by Leon

Sorry about that. I got "altered" and "restored" mixed up. Flashback from Apocolypse Now hindered my thinking.

I keep getting it mixed up in my head, too. In reality, the first guy that "alters" it is trying to restore it to its original condition, so the terminology isn't very cut and dry...

[JP]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I do have a very nice mint Cobb that I'd trade for it--of course, it is a 1976 Topps All Time All Star. Any interest?

Deal.

EDIT: No deal!

[T206Collector]

I think that's about the right price for that card, given the market for "Authentic" Planks -- and represents nearly a $3,000 increase since what is probably the same card sold in Mastro's April 2007 auction, click this link:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=73368

Coincidentally, in the same April 2007 auction I purchased Lionel Carter's beater Plank, for just a hair over the price of your restored Plank. So, I think that Plank collectors are just about evenly split on whether they'd rather have a beauty restored or a beater original.

If you tried to restore it you would have to remove at least some of the blue from the background, which would put you into SGC 30 value at best. And there is a meaningful probability of an SGC 10 or 20. As a result, I would recommend just leaving it alone and consider it in value as about what the market would value an SGC 10.

Most of all -- enjoy the card!!

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by JP

Deal.

JP,

Edit and add a smiley face. Quick. You should never joke with an attorney while witnesses are present. The way I see it, you just made an agreement to trade with Adam.

[Doug]

Here's a comic book restoration company that offers removal. I'm not sure if he works on items besides comics, but you might want to contact him if it's something you are considering: http://www.classicsincorporated.com/...es_removal.htm

[Orioles1954]

In our May 2009 sale, a T206 Plank SGC Authentic sold for $27,500 before juice.

James

[JP]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

JP,

Edit and add a smiley face. Quick. You should never joke with an attorney while witnesses are present. The way I see it, you just made an agreement to trade with Adam.

"Deal" was in response to the question "Any interest?" That basically meant that while I don't have a "great deal" of interest, I do still have a "deal" of interest.

[JP]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

In our May 2009 sale, a T206 Plank SGC Authentic sold for $27,500 before juice.

Deal! Who is "our" referring to? Pardon my ignorance.

[scottglevy]

Nice pickup JP,

If the card was not in a legendary auction I think it would have received much more interest (and higher pricing).

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by JP

Deal! Who is "our" referring to? Pardon my ignorance.

Here you go:

http://may09.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=12192

[JP]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

Nice pickup JP,

If the card was not in a legendary auction I think it would have received much more interest (and higher pricing).

Scott, weird that I was talking to you the other day about someday reacquiring a Plank...never expected it to be this one. While it isn't the grade I wanted, it looks better than any one I could ever afford...

[JP]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Here you go:

http://may09.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=12192

Is it too late to consign for the May 2009 auction?

[Jacklitsch]

Love the card!!

Great deal!!

Leave it alone!!

[ethicsprof]

Hi Rob D,
Point well taken.
I guess I still pick ole Aristotle for my ethics sources over grading companies,as i'm sure you do too!!!
Granted it's tough to find his comments on altered T206s.

all the best,
barry

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

Granted it's tough to find his comments on altered T206s.

Το τέρας που θέλει να εγκαταλείψει. Μην το ακούσει.
-Aristotle, 364 B.C.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Το τέρας που θέλει να εγκαταλείψει. Μην το ακούσει.
-Aristotle, 364 B.C.

LOL! Damn I wish I knew how to type in Greek!

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

LOL! Damn I wish I knew how to type in Greek!

Its easy. Just need a greek typewriter.


Ναι, σκότωσε 7 άνδρες στην Florida. Ναι, ήταν πόρνη. Ναι, μετά από παγίδα που της έστησε η λεσβία πρώην ερωμένη της, μαζί με την αστυνομία, έδωσε μια συγκλονιστική, λεπτομερή ομολογία και κατά τη διάρκεια της δίκης της υιοθετήθηκε νόμιμα από μια καλοπροαίρετη γυναίκα που ισχυρίστηκε πως έλαβε εντολή από τον Θεό. Είχε πολλές περίφημες και βλάσφημες εκρήξεις σε παραπάνω από μία αίθουσες δικαστηρίου και μετά από τις 6 θανατικές της καταδίκες περίμενε τη σειρά της στην πτέρυγα μελλοθανάτων περισσότερο από κάθε άλλον που βρισκόταν εκεί. Ναι, όλα αυτά είναι αλήθεια. Είναι σημαντικό, ωστόσο, να αποβληθούν κάποια στοιχεία γύρω από την υπερβολή που περιβάλλει την υπόθεση της Aileen. Ας πάρουμε όμως τα πράγματα από την αρχή.

[barrysloate]

It's Greek to me.

[E93]

First, I think it is a great card and you got a great deal.

I may be in a minority willing to voice this opinion, but if the only alterations made to the card were rebuilt corners added on and very minor in-painting, I don't have a problem with removing what was not supposed to be there in the first place. I don't know if this would result in the card getting a numerical grade from PSA or SGC, but to my mind, it would be restoring it to its naturally worn state. If creases or wrinkles have been pressed out - and we have no way of knowing - that is a different issue.
JimB

[Kawika]

Wow! From Gettysburg Eddie to Aileen Wuornos via Aristotle. A new Net54 record for going off the rails.
PS. Thanks, Jim B. for getting it back on track.

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Wow! From Gettysburg Eddie to Aileen Wuornos via Aristotle. A new Net54 record for going off the rails.
PS. Thanks, Jim B. for getting it back on track.

And for you JP, again, I love the card.

[T206.org]

Mighty fine card and deal, Sir!
I would love to own it at that price. It really looks amazing.

[JP]

Originally Posted by T206.org

Mighty fine card and deal, Sir!
I would love to own it at that price. It really looks amazing.

Thank you, much appreciated! My ultimate goal is to trade it for other high-end T-206s even before I get it in hand.....I seem to change my collection goals faster than anybody....or maybe it just seems that way.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by JP

Thank you, much appreciated! My ultimate goal is to trade it for other high-end T-206s even before I get it in hand.....I seem to change my collection goals faster than anybody....or maybe it just seems that way.

Just curious -- are you motivated to flip the card by not being able to return it to its original form, have it grade a 3 and then sell it for huge profits? In other words, were you speculating when you made the purchase?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I am curious about these kinds of cards. I spent a lot of time thinking about which Plank to bid on in April 2007 and I decided to go with Lionel Carter's beater. My feeling at the time was that the "FrankenPlank" (as it was called by Wonkaticket at the time) would have its price inflated by two potential buyers -- those who were going to try to pass it off down the road as a PSA 7 and those were were going to try to unrestore the restoration. My view, which is supported by its return to a Mastro auction this spring and your current intent to flip it, is that there are fewer collectors that are willing to add this Plank to their collection and keep it long term in its current state given the restoration job. Maybe the SGC Authentic Plank sold for more than the PSA Authentic Plank because the PSA collectors wanted to try to get it into a PSA holder.

In any event, I spent like a month debating this 3 years ago, and I enjoy the dialogue.

[barrysloate]

JP- do you think you will be able to get enough in trade to justify the purchase? Someone is really going to have to step to the plate to make that worthwhile for you.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by JP

Thank you, much appreciated! My ultimate goal is to trade it for other high-end T-206s even before I get it in hand.....I seem to change my collection goals faster than anybody....or maybe it just seems that way.

JP,

You took great offense last week when another poster mentioned some deals you had done and "flipping" in the same sentence. Does this statement by you indicate that you do intend to flip this card? (As said previously, not that there's anything wrong with that...)

Flipping on a fairly high profile card is always dicey, especially when it come from one of the big auction houses. Vitrually everyone in the hobby saw this auction, and on the day it closed, you were the one person willing to pay the most for it. Why would you think that now, "before I get it in hand", it would be worth more to someone else?

Not sure I understand the logical thought process behind that.

[JP]

T206collector, Barry, Jim:

Apparently the joke I made was misconstrued, or completely missed. I have no intention of moving this card. The desire to restore it to a more valuable version I thought made financial sense, but alas seems impossible. And my comment about trading it for a Demmit or high grade Cobb was mostly a joke. A high grade Cobb is worth far more, and one of the top 3 Demmitts is my main collecting goal. Since neither one is realy attainable, it was a joke that I think only I got. As far as trading it before it got in my hands, that was a subtle reference to the previous "flip that wasn't a flip" that I did on eBay. Plank is sticking with me unless a once in a lifetime opportunity arises.