Did anyone buy this T205 Speaker??

Here is the link for the card on FeeBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=330401882464

I am disappointed that the seller has disclosed this card as something it is not. The card was actually graded by SGC as a 2 but cracked out and made to sound like it will be much higher. I bid on it then after looking at pricing I got curious to see what lower grade cards looked like so the first SGC 30 I seen was this exact card.

I am sure there has not been a crime commited here but I do believe it is a bit dishonest. This is just IMO.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...55&w=494&h=848

[iggyman]

Andrew,

I've seen a couple of flippers do that. They bust-out a lower grade card that has good eye appeal and subsequently list them raw. It actually happened to a graded card I sold recently. I tracked it, and son-of-a-gun it received a little bump to the hammer price (as the Speaker). It goes against logic, but I was never very good in math anyways. Plus, I'm sure the grading companies don't mind.

Lovely Day...

[danmckee]

I bid but didn't win. Why do you say he presented it as something it isn't? The Orange looks like it was red at one time and some staining changed it. Is that what you mean?

Originally Posted by danmckee

I bid but didn't win. Why do you say he presented it as something it isn't? The Orange looks like it was red at one time and some staining changed it. Is that what you mean?

Well I feel after reading the description and then seeing the card had been graded a 2 was a bit disering for me. I get it that the hobby is here for collectors, and people to make money. The fact that the card is described in a way that I personally though would have been worth several hundred more than the price paid and the hammer price it went for. I sent an email to the guy and got no response. The card is not described as faded either but as a rare printers variation with few flaws as a small corner crease and some back staining. This description leads to about a grade 4, maybe a 5 with a good soak for the back tobacco staining. (Wish I had the balls to soak a card but I doubt I ever will.)

I have bought cards and cracked them out but if they go back up for sale they include the flip with them and the reason I busted the card out. Also a disclaimer with a guarentee that the card had not been tampered with by myself after removal.

[teetwoohsix]

I am just wondering if this is a rare printers' variation?I have only owned one T205,and am not too familiar with these things.Anyone know for sure?
Also,was the card purchased in the U.S.?I guess the seller is out of the U.K.(not that it matters much,just curious).
Regards-Clayton

[earlybball]

I am the seller and am not sure what the problem is here.

I have done nothing dishonest (strait forward guy with 100% feedback). I purchased a card for my own collection (T205 Speaker). I am an old fashioned guy and break out all my cards from their holders for my personal collection. I fully intended on keeping this card too (if I brought it for resale I would have kept it in the holder) but needed money quick for the Goodwin auction last night.

As you can see, I am not a dealer, just a collector. This was not a trick to get more money for it. The only thing I guess I am guilty of is leaving out the info that it was previously graded.

As I said, this was not done to get more money - to me it is visually a nice card on the front but the staining on the back would always keep it from anything other than a 2. If anything, I figured the fact that it is not graded would hurt its value especially given the fact that I am overseas working on contract (added uncertainty).

[Wite3]

Actually the card does not look orange but definitely looks washed out...t205s sometimes look like this after exposure to moisture or sunlight. I do not think this is a printing process error. I will say that without holding the card myself, I cannot be sure but have seen many like this that are not printing errors. BTW, print errors for t205s are out there and the missing colors are very obvious as it changes the portraits, borders, etc.

Joshua

[Frank A]

I really don't understand what the problem is here. If you want to crack a card out and sell it raw, SO WHAT. I see many raw cards on ebay that sell for more than 2's or 3' or 4's for that mater. If the card has great eye appeal, why leave it in a low grade holder. Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Frank

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I am sure there has not been a crime commited here but I do believe it is a bit dishonest. This is just IMO.

I don't see any problem with this transaction. Regardless of the sellers motive, he didn't do anything wrong.

When I bust a card out I usually toss the flip away. So what if it used to be an SGC 30? Once I open the case, it's not. It's now ungraded.

And he needs to explain why he opened it? Where does it say that? Collectors are allowed to open any case we want, for any reason we want.

I'm not sure what's gained by starting a thread like this.

[batsballsbases]

Frank +Jim,
I totally agree. I see nothing wrong here either. Its yours to do what you wish with it. Sometimes threads like this should never be started. IMO

[Robextend]

I agree as well that cracking a card out of a holder with a numerical grade and selling it raw is fine in most circumstances.

What I do not like is when a card is cracked out of an "A" holder and sold without disclosure of what the issue was.

Or

When there is no disclosure of when a card with a numerical grade is submitted for crossover, but won't cross because of a trim, alteration, etc...I would hope that information is given, however most of the time it probably isn't.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

I'm not sure what's gained by starting a thread like this.

Well, it has been some time since someone on the board got "called out."

[Leon]

If you crack a card out of an AUT holder and sell it raw you SHOULD say that it used to be in an AUT holder and/or what the problem is. If you crack out a card with a grade then just give big front and back scans, note what can't be seen in the scans, and move happily along. If I crack a card in a 2 holder and give big scans of front and back, and detail anything that can't be seen, then I see no need to state it used to be in a holder...or I might say it was.....doesn't really matter to me, even when buying....regards

edited to add I am giving our board an infraction for allowing this thread

[teetwoohsix]

Joshua-thanks for answering my question about the printing error-I'm always trying to learn,and appreciate the help.

earlybball-I hope my post wasn't offensive to you,I am not questioning your transaction or your honesty.Me wondering where the card was bought really has nothing to do with anything -just thought it would've been cool to run into T205's,T206's,etc.,etc.,in the U.K.-but maybe you p/u in the U.S.?

Take care,

Sincerely,Clayton

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Leon

edited to add I am giving our board an infraction for allowing this thread

Rarely has an infraction been more deserved.

[Republicaninmass]

I was going to bid, but top looks short, looks short in the old holder too

[Fred]

Nobody has to do anything if they crack a card from a holder. However, you can always take the high road and indicate the card was in a "2" holder in the past. Scans may not always show a defect that was the reason for a lower grade on a nice looking card. Again, you don't have to do this.

Just a thought - If I found out someone was buying nice looking low grade cards, cracking them and then flippig them for more money I'd be leary to buy a raw card from that person.

I guess people will do what they can do to make a buck these days...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fred

Nobody has to do anything if they crack a card from a holder. However, you can always take the high road and indicate the card was in a "2" holder in the past. Scans may not always show a defect that was the reason for a lower grade on a nice looking card. Again, you don't have to do this.

Just a thought - If I found out someone was buying nice looking low grade cards, cracking them and then flippig them for more money I'd be leary to buy a raw card from that person.

I guess people will do what they can do to make a buck these days...

For the record I don't remember ever cracking a graded card and selling it raw as I would just as soon leave it in the holder. That being said, if there is a large front and back scan, and any other discrepancies noted, why would you be leery? I think most of us can tell by looking at a card if we like it or not...and as long as it's not altered I don't see the reason for the skepticism, that is why I ask? Maybe I am missing something (as I often do)..Just a friendly discussion is all .......best regards

[teetwoohsix]

Everyone is making great valid points.I can't speak for Andrew,but I don't think he should be chained to the whipping post for having concerns about a card.I see threads like that all the time.
The seller has great feedback,and his post was very sincere.
So,the question seems to be-as a buyer,would you want to know if the card you were interested in buying had ever been graded,and if so,why was it cracked out of it's holder prior to being put on the market?And,what was the grade it had,graded by which TPG?

[Robextend]

I hear ya Clayton, but I don't think there was any reason to be dissapointed with the seller in this case. IMO, that information does not have to be a standard disclosure. I am sure I have bought cards I am very happy with that have been cracked out of their respective holders. Is the information nice? Sure, however it certainly isn't and should not be mandatory.

[Fred]

Not all scanners are the same...

Leon, I'm just saying if you know a flipper that buys nice looking cards in low grade holders for the sole purpose of flipping the cards out of the holder because the flipper figures people will buy the card (pay top dollar for a nice looking raw card) and not the flip number, then I would always wonder if the card the seller was getting rid of cards that fit into that categorey. To me that intent just seems a bit dishonest but hey, this is the 21st century and the sellers edict now is to make a buck where you can and who cares how you do it. Again, people can do what they want, but taking the high road these days seems pretty stupid when there's a buck at stake. Ok, if nobody agrees with me, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone know's about opinions: They're like a$$holes, everyone has one.... I just know how I feel.

I guess this is a good arguement for "buy the card, not the holder" and "you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear".

[Republicaninmass]

"This card has never been tampered with in any way and although it is not presently graded, I guarantee it (money back) to gain a numerical grade from any grading company."


Geez kinda going out on a limb here, I wonder what "guaranteed numerical grade" it would get? I guess it could be higher, unless the seller already tried.

[JeremyW]

I don't think the seller really did anything wrong here. Although, in his post he says, "(if I brought it for resale I would have kept it in the holder)" yet he fails to mention that it was previously in a holder. Like I said, no big deal either way.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I can't speak for Andrew,but I don't think he should be chained to the whipping post for having concerns about a card.I see threads like that all the time.

Problem is they're mostly started by the same person.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

"This card has never been tampered with in any way and although it is not presently graded, I guarantee it (money back) to gain a numerical grade from any grading company."


Geez kinda going out on a limb here, I wonder what "guaranteed numerical grade" it would get? I guess it could be higher, unless the seller already tried.

Actually I have used that similar line before. If I have a card, say worth less than $50-$100, I might sell it raw and guarantee it will grade numerically. Last time I sold a card in a holder I would NOT guarantee it would grade higher, or even the same, if re-submitted. The person bought it and it got a half grade bump up. It went from a PSA 4.5 to an SGC 60. I would only guarantee a number though...not any specific grade. I also buy cards the same way.....really I don't think there is a problem with any of these scenarios, as well as I don't have any issue with this whole thread. Now, our "board" might have an issue with it, but that is it's own business..

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I am sure there has not been a crime commited here but I do believe it is a bit dishonest. This is just IMO.

We are all intitled to our opinions and I am about 90% sure if this happened to not be an actuall board member then not much but a discussion about wether or not previously graded cards should be disclosed as them and what you opinions are about that.

Now that the guy happens to be a board member things change like I am making a huge issue. Like I stated above I am sure no crime has been commited but I do believe the listing is misleading especially since the card was graded and described as an error of some type. This is just my opinion. Some share it some don't.

Maybe I should have reworded for some of you guys to say that I believe the listing is a bit misleading instead of dishonest Same thing but maybe in the politically correct way of thinking it is 2 different things.

[batsballsbases]

Andrew,
And you need to hear yourself yammer again about this because? Let the post die with what ever dignity you might have thought it had. Just IMO