Rick Probstein interviews Bill Mastro

[Snowman]

This is a pretty good interview. Probstein talks with Mastro on his Instagram channel for about 40 minutes. They discuss the trimmed Wagner card and shill bidding operation at Mastro Auctions among other things.

The interview starts at about 1:45.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CT2hwihp0Vd/

[68Hawk]

Cliff notes?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Cliff notes?

The Wagner card was sheet cut by someone else. He bought all the cards from that sheet from the guy who cut up the sheet. The Wagner was cut ridiculously wide left to right, and bowed out on both sides. Mastro said it looked like a football with a flat top and flat bottom. Mastro trimmed it for himself, not to resell it, and he trimmed it to size. He said it's not undersized at all, and that if you measure it, it would be of above average size for non-trimmed T206s.

He also said the majority of the auctions that were shill bid at Mastro Auctions were actually of Americana or other non-sports card collectibles. He said it was mostly stuff that had very interested few buyers. He said most of the cards had plenty of action and that they didn't "need" to bid on those, but that sometimes they did anyhow because they had access to everyone's bid amounts and they got greedy.

Lots of other great stories though. Worth a listen.

[Carter08]

Thanks for sharing!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I didn't think Alan Ray -- the pre-Mastro owner -- was the one who cut the Wagner from the sheet. I had thought the provenance did not go back all the way to the sheet and I also thought Ray would not say where HE got the card.

But there are several members at least who know the story better.

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks for sharing!

Interesting to hear him speak. I expect that there will be a tell all book.

Found it interesting that he said he hated Lew Lipset.

Patrick

[drcy]

Very interesting and entertaining. He should write a book. His enthusiasm for cards is obvious.

[Yoda]

Didn't Mastro buy the sheet from Rob Lifson, or Rob loaned him the money to buy it himself?

[Shoeless Moe]

Prison really aged him.

Let that be a lesson to all you youngsters out there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Didn't Mastro buy the sheet from Rob Lifson, or Rob loaned him the money to buy it himself?

I think Rob was a lender, not a seller.

[mrreality68]

He actually is a good speaker and told some fascinating stories.

IT was a bit long but pretty entertaining.

As for the truth of it all

That is for others to decide

Worth the watch

[Peter_Spaeth]

Will Doug Allen be next?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The Wagner card was sheet cut by someone else. He bought all the cards from that sheet from the guy who cut up the sheet. The Wagner was cut ridiculously wide left to right, and bowed out on both sides. Mastro said it looked like a football with a flat top and flat bottom. Mastro trimmed it for himself, not to resell it, and he trimmed it to size. He said it's not undersized at all, and that if you measure it, it would be of above average size for non-trimmed T206s.

He also said the majority of the auctions that were shill bid at Mastro Auctions were actually of Americana or other non-sports card collectibles. He said it was mostly stuff that had very interested few buyers. He said most of the cards had plenty of action and that they didn't "need" to bid on those, but that sometimes they did anyhow because they had access to everyone's bid amounts and they got greedy.

Lots of other great stories though. Worth a listen.

.

So basically he was "THIS" close to being innocent and certainly not a bad guy, and everyone should just enjoy what an entertaining fellow he is. Gotcha.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

.

So basically he was "THIS" close to being innocent and certainly not a bad guy, and everyone should just enjoy what an entertaining fellow he is. Gotcha.

He admits to his guilt in the video and served his time.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Will Doug Allen be next?

I've heard Doug's a good storyteller

[parkplace33]

I enjoyed the interview.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by drcy

He admits to his guilt in the video and served his time.

Don't think I said anything that contradicted that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've heard Doug's a good storyteller

Yeah like Lionel Carter and the gypsies.

[JayZim13]

Mastro and Lifson actually bought the Wagner in 1985.
He kept quoting 1996. It overall was an interesting interview

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Don't think I said anything that contradicted that.

Then what was even the point of your comment??
Did you actually have one?
Or just a snide, condescending remark?

[Ricky]

Haven’t watched yet but why did he hate Lipset?

[nickedson]

Fascinating interview. Brought back a lot of memories of the people who set up at shows starting in the early 1970s. I especially enjoyed the stories about my hobby mentor Frank Nagy.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Then what was even the point of your comment??
Did you actually have one?
Or just a snide, condescending remark?

If you read his comment carefully, you'll see that he was projecting that statement onto me. He was saying that was *my* opinion of Mastro. Hence he said "gotcha" as in "got ya" rather than "got it" at the end.

To be clear, this is not my opinion of Mastro. Someone asked for the Cliff Notes so I provided them as delivered in the video, and without bias, for the two topics I thought people would be most interested in.

I don't think there's anything wrong with him trimming that sheet cut Wagner. I just think it should have been graded for what it is, as a sheet cut card. But I have a big problem with how he ran his auctions. However, I find him to be remorseful and he's paid his debt to society. I'd give him a second chance. But I understand others who wouldn't. To each their own.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you read his comment carefully, you'll see that he was projecting that statement onto me. He was saying that was *my* opinion of Mastro. Hence he said "gotcha" as in "got ya" rather than "got it" at the end.

To be clear, this is not my opinion of Mastro. Someone asked for the Cliff Notes so I provided them as delivered in the video, and without bias, for the two topics I thought people would be most interested in.

I don't think there's anything wrong with him trimming that sheet cut Wagner. I just think it should have been graded for what it is, as a sheet cut card. But I have a big problem with how he ran his auctions. However, I find him to be remorseful and he's paid his debt to society. I'd give him a second chance. But I understand others who wouldn't. To each their own.

You are reading WAY too much into my reply. I was being snarky about Mastro himself and nobody else.

[lumberjack]

Boy, the crack about Lew Lipset was gratuitous.

Lew Lipset wasn't there from the beginning, but he was a very big deal from the mid 1970s on. The older collectors (like Nagy, Elwood Scharf, Al Price and a lot of other people nobody remembers today) felt comfortable around him.

He was one of the early go-to guys. Lipset, as was mentioned in the interview, had a shot at the 25 grand Wagner. He was also in the running for the BB Magazine photo collection. He was all business; I don't remember him back slapping and yucking it up.

Back issues of The Old Judge, his one-man operation, can be checked out on line. He issued price lists and catalogued obscure issues. There were a couple of books of check lists in there, too.

He was probably the conscience of the collecting business.

He didn't suffer fools.
lumberjack

[bobbyw8469]

Lew Lipset is "old school". I once bought several "Near Mint" cards from him trhough his auction on his website. At BEST, they were "Very Good". When I told him the issue with his grading, I was promptly blocked. I was later told by someone else to give him a "pass" because he was a hobby legend. If a hobby legend is that bad at grading cards, I want nothing to do with him.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You are reading WAY too much into my reply. I was being snarky about Mastro himself and nobody else.

Apologies then. Now I'm the one projecting words onto you lol. I take it back.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't think there's anything wrong with him trimming that sheet cut Wagner. I just think it should have been graded for what it is, as a sheet cut card.

Agree

[Peter_Spaeth]

I doubt Ken Kendrick is going to send it back to be reholdered an A any time soon.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Apologies then. Now I'm the one projecting words onto you lol. I take it back.

It's all good. I thought "Man if there's one guy in the hobby you can take a potshot at, it's Mastro." Apparently not. I'm trying like hell to become an adult before I turn 50. Do okay a decent percentage of the time.

[oldjudge]

Great to hear Bill. Those stories were fascinating. Hopefully, I can see him at the National next year.

[RL]

Probstein and Mastro, 2 of a kind. I got nothing good to say about either of them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by RL

Probstein and Mastro, 2 of a kind. I got nothing good to say about either of them.

That's bullshit. I'm so sick of reading these completely baseless accusations against Probstein. He does not shill bid his listings. Take off the tin-foil hat.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

...trying like hell to become an adult before I turn 50...

I'm nearly 50 and haven't managed to become an adult; not even remotely close. Given the way many "adults" behave, I'm quite content with this.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

That's bullshit. I'm so sick of reading these completely baseless accusations against Probstein. He does not shill bid his listings. Take off the tin-foil hat.

I won a Probstein auction this summer. It was an SGC graded sports card.

A week later, I asked them for tracking info. They informed me that, "due to an ebay glitch this item was double listed and we no longer have anymore in stock."

So, I won a straight auction with (apparently) no shill bidding. That's great; however, they didn't honor the high bid and wouldn't ship the card.

This same item (cert # and all) appeared in a Probstein auction a short time later, where it sold for more money.

[JeremyW]

Travis/Snowman- I'm guessing that you have never been shilled, to the best of your knowledge? Some have & it's not a great feeling.

[Misunderestimated]

Mastro's stories seem like they captured the inevitable moments when a fairly pure hobby started to turned into a business/hobby. That was interesting interesting to hear... I'd read an oral history if anyone ever put a reliable one together -- a sort of "Glory of Their Times"... I think the pure hobbyist are all gone now. Does any one know if an oral history exists? I've read bits and pieces over the years.
---

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Lew Lipset is "old school". I once bought several "Near Mint" cards from him trhough his auction on his website. At BEST, they were "Very Good". When I told him the issue with his grading, I was promptly blocked. I was later told by someone else to give him a "pass" because he was a hobby legend. If a hobby legend is that bad at grading cards, I want nothing to do with him.

My understanding of Lew is that his grading scale depended on which side of the table he was standing on. If he was buying, it was VG. If he was selling, it was NM.

[jbsports33]

Interesting - are we giving these guys a free pass!

I thought there was so much negative about both of these guys and PWCC

anyways - thanks for sharing, I always like to hear perspective from both sides

Happy collecting!

Thanks Jimmy Piccuito

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Tabe

My understanding of Lew is that his grading scale depended on which side of the table he was standing on. If he was buying, it was VG. If he was selling, it was NM.

While perhaps not to that extreme, I often witness the same behavior these days.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I won a Probstein auction this summer. It was an SGC graded sports card.

A week later, I asked them for tracking info. They informed me that, "due to an ebay glitch this item was double listed and we no longer have anymore in stock."

So, I won a straight auction with (apparently) no shill bidding. That's great; however, they didn't honor the high bid and wouldn't ship the card.

This same item (cert # and all) appeared in a Probstein auction a short time later, where it sold for more money.

Surely, that's frustrating. But it's definitely not the norm, and that doesn't constitute fraud. Someone simply made a mistake. They have thousands of listings ending per day. Sometimes, they double post by mistake. I've consigned hundreds of cards with Probstein. The vast majority go through with no issues.

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Travis/Snowman- I'm guessing that you have never been shilled, to the best of your knowledge? Some have & it's not a great feeling.

Yes, I've been shilled. More than once. If it's an obvious shill bidding job, I report them to eBay (who then always does nothing about it). But I know what a card is worth to me and what I'm willing to pay for it. If I would have paid the same amount for a Buy-It-Now listing anyhow, then it just doesn't bother me all that much if I got shilled in an auction. Most shill bids are just effectively hidden reserves.

Of course, we all know that countless consignors shill their auctions with companies like Probstein, et. al., but that doesn't mean that Rick himself (or anyone being paid $X/hr to list cards for him) is shilling his own auctions. It's just an absolutely ridiculous claim to make without evidence, and nobody has shown any evidence of that whatsoever (and sold prices do not constitute evidence of this claim, despite the thousands of internet trolls who seem to think otherwise). It doesn't even make sense. It would just be a completely stupid thing for him to even try to do. The risks so greatly outweigh the benefits that it would be completely asinine of him to even try.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

...simply made a mistake. They have thousands of listings ending per day. Sometimes, they double post by mistake...

You did read the part explaining that they listed the card again a short time later, yes?

I guess they "found" it.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Thanks for sharing the interview. Really enjoyed listening to Mastro's stories especially the Wagner deal. Wish Probstein would have stopped interrupting and talking over him. Could have listened to another hour about the early hobby days. Mastro comes off like he truly regrets his mistakes and has paid the ultimate price both with losing 18 months of life behind bars and his reputation, and I personally think everyone deserves a 2nd chance. Maybe Mastro gets one...I don't know. You might have a different opinion if you were the one financially harmed by his greed.

As an aside, the more I think about the ebay/PWCC debacle, I think ebay is just as culpable and should/could have done so much more to stop the shilling. The PWCC account termination feels more and more like retribution to PWCC's plans to build their own auction platform.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

You did read the part explaining that they listed the card again a short time later, yes?

I guess they "found" it.

The other listing probably just wasn't paid for. So they relisted it. After that buyer didn't pay, they probably didn't think to check to see if they happened to accidently dual list that card and see if you still wanted it. It's probably as simple as that. Dibble listed by accident. They canceled the second one (yours) and the original listing didn't get paid for, so it was relisted.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The other listing probably just wasn't paid for. So they relisted it. After that buyer didn't pay, they probably didn't think to check to see if they happened to accidently dual list that card and see if you still wanted it. It's probably as simple as that. Dibble listed by accident. They canceled the second one (yours) and the original listing didn't get paid for, so it was relisted.

LOL

The first one was mine, not the second. Chronologically:

1. I win auction
2. I pay
3. They don't ship
4. They relist

Timeline make sense?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

LOL

The first one was mine, not the second. Chronologically:

1. I win auction
2. I pay
3. They don't ship
4. They relist

Timeline make sense?

Whatever your facts, an innocent explanation can be constructed. Why waste your time.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever your facts, an innocent explanation can be constructed. Why waste your time.

Exchanging words with a snowman has entertainment value at the moment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Exchanging words with a snowman has entertainment value at the moment.

You are easily entertained my friend.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You are easily entertained my friend.

Quite. I embrace it, though. Simple things to amuse a simple mind.

[Hxcmilkshake]

"Hidden reserves" is something new I learned today.



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