WNBA Madness

[oldjudge]

Yesterday, a 1/1 Caitlin Clark panini rookie card, one of several different 1/1 panini rookie cards sold for $660,000. Clark is a very good player now and has the potential to be an all time great. However, she has only played a little over one season, has been hurt much of this year, and was far from the best player in the league when she did play. Aside from Clark cards I don't think anyone else's cards have gotten into the mid-five figure range and I don't believe that anything from A'ja Wilson, arguably the greatest player ever, have even reached five figures. Is this completely crazy or am I missing something?

[aro13]

I'm with you Jay. Although I would disagree about Wilson being the best ever. Breanna Stewart or Diana Taurasi deserve that title in my opinion.

I would guess if Taurasi or Stewart or Wilson had a 1/1 card from their rookie season it would easily fetch 6 digits. They don't have anything comparable. Their highest priced cards would be their PSA 10 RC's which wouldn't come close to 5 digits.

[ValKehl]

One could make a case for Sue Bird being the best ever.

[bnorth]

Pretty much the same as baseball. When 1/1s first came out in the 90s the future HOFers/super star players from the 80s 1/1 cards sold in the hundreds. The rookies that turned out to be nothing special sold in the thousands.

[BioCRN]

She's long captured the imagination, television ratings, and fandom of people since she was in college.

It may or may not last, but I still see people under the age of 30 get excited to pull a Bo Jackson autograph/parallel even though he never realized his potential.

Some people have "it" and some people manage to hold onto it after the hype. Though CC is just getting started and still has her hype I've passively read a lot of stuff that expect(ed) her to be good, but not necessarily a generational talent.

[samosa4u]

Beyond ridiculous! People already think that she is going to be the GOAT of the WNBA. What if she keeps getting injured? What if she never wins a championship? How much will this card be worth then ??

[oldjudge]

It would be really tough to make the argument for Bird since she has never won an MVP. I used to think that Stewie and A'ja Wilson were equivalent but Wilson in the last year or two has, in my mind, passed Stewie. Taurasi was great but never was above average defensively. Wilson is as much an offensive force as D ever was and is one of the top defensive players, if not the top defensive player, in the league. This all comes from a UCONN fan who would love to argue for D or Stewie or Bird.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

It would be really tough to make the argument for Bird since she has never won an MVP. I used to think that Stewie and A'ja Wilson were equivalent but Wilson in the last year or two has, in my mind, passed Stewie. Taurasi was great but never was above average defensively. Wilson is as much an offensive force as D ever was and is one of the top defensive players, if not the top defensive player, in the league. This all comes from a UCONN fan who would love to argue for D or Stewie or Bird.

She never finished second either, and averaged just 11.7 points. IMO no way she ranks ahead of Taurasi, Stewart, Wilson, Moore, Catchings, or Parker.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Regardless of how her career turns out, she is already a singularly transcendent figure, with the incredible college career she had, and probably having brought the biggest number of new fans and eyes to the WNBA of anyone in the league's history.

Whether or not she ends up one of the greatest ever, I don't think $660k for a card of hers is any more ludicrous than $13 million for a '52 Mantle.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Yesterday, a 1/1 Caitlin Clark panini rookie card, one of several different 1/1 panini rookie cards sold for $660,000. Clark is a very good player now and has the potential to be an all time great. However, she has only played a little over one season, has been hurt much of this year, and was far from the best player in the league when she did play. Aside from Clark cards I don't think anyone else's cards have gotten into the mid-five figure range and I don't believe that anything from A'ja Wilson, arguably the greatest player ever, have even reached five figures. Is this completely crazy or am I missing something?

-
Didn't CC break 8 or 9 rookie records and a couple of WNBA records including assists? Not to mention attendance records wherever she went.
I would argue she had a better season by far over any other player. She is the 1st WNBA player to have any mainstream appeal, nobody cares about that Brittney Griner dude or most of the other players in the league.
Incredible how the WNBA screwed up managing her mass appeal at every turn and allowed the thugs to beat up on her because of their fragile egos. And the crap Sheryl Swoopes said about her was shameful. Officiating is horrible too.
Maybe they can figure it out moving forward, maybe not.

Clark cards have caught fire much like a meme stock, 660K is a ton of money. Personally, I'll take a 14CJ Jackson and leave the other stuff to the speculators.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's the logo 3s, more than anything. She shoots from places no one has consistently shot from before, and that's what fires up the fans. And she's relatable, a pretty ordinary looking gal, a bit of an edge but one that I thinks works to her popularity rather than offending.

[Misunderestimated]

The highest end of the market for basketball (NBA & WNBA) is largely about (manufactured) scarcity and potential. Didn't some Luka Doncic one of one card set the basketball card price record a few years ago ? He's really good and the sky was the limit on his potential (it still may be).
Clark is like that --> only more so. She's got potential to be the one of the best ever and has elevated women's basketball's popularity like no one before.

I guess the difference between her cards and the Mantle card referenced below is the potential both upside and downside depending on how her career shakes out.
One of the things I find most interesting about her celebration/phenomenon is that she plays for Indiana a basketball heaven but not exactly a large market. I guess that doesn't matter like it used to.

[aro13]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

It would be really tough to make the argument for Bird since she has never won an MVP. I used to think that Stewie and A'ja Wilson were equivalent but Wilson in the last year or two has, in my mind, passed Stewie. Taurasi was great but never was above average defensively. Wilson is as much an offensive force as D ever was and is one of the top defensive players, if not the top defensive player, in the league. This all comes from a UCONN fan who would love to argue for D or Stewie or Bird.

All fair points. The thing with Stewart is she is a four time National College Champion (three time final four MVP?) who lost 5 games in her whole career and only 1 in the last three seasons. Even if Wilson is slightly better now she is going to really have to blow away Stewart for the rest of her career to justify the college difference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aro13

All fair points. The thing with Stewart is she is a four time National College Champion (three time final four MVP?) who lost 5 games in her whole career and only 1 in the last three seasons. Even if Wilson is slightly better now she is going to really have to blow away Stewart for the rest of her career to justify the college difference.

Maya Moore was 150-4.
Maya Moore won 4 WNBA titles before retiring at 29.

https://www.wnba.com/news/maya-moore-career-wins

[oldjudge]

Hi Phil! No questions, Clark had a great rookie season. She set the record for assists in a game and set the season record for assists. However, the latter deserves an asterisk as the WNBA has been increasing the number of games in the season over the last few years. It went from 34 to where it currently stands at 44. Because of this, most aggregate records have been broken. Clark averaged 8.4 assists per game last year in breaking the record. Courtney Vandersloot averaged 9.95 assists per game in 2020. The only total record broken last year that would have been broken even with the old number of games was A’ja Wilson breaking the total points and average points record. She averaged 26.9 points per game, eclipsing Diana Taurasi’s 25.3 points per game.
Despite Clark performing well on paper last year the Indiana Fever, which also boasts all stars Aliyah Boston and Kelsey Mitchell, finished an unimpressive 20-20.Last year Clark’s Win Share was 3.0. For comparison, A’ja Wilson’s win share was 10.9. Even her teammate Kelsey Mitchell’s Win Share was 3.2 which corresponds to my feeling that at this time Clark is the second best guard on the Fever.

[Mark17]

It's interesting to read this discussion. Everyone is talking about this card as though it is a stock on the NYSE. Instead of P/E ratio and future earnings, the factors are relative performance and injury risk.

CC had a terrific collegiate career, so that everyone knew her popularity was sky high before her rookie season. As was stated, Panini issued several 1/1 cards.

Anyway, this card is not a stock certificate related to CC or her future earnings. It is a bit of recently printed cardboard which is selling for the price of a very nice 5-bedroom house in the suburbs of Minneapolis, or 150 one-ounce gold coins. The house or gold would be investments. The bit of cardboard is somebody relying on the "greater fool" theory, with an insanely high bar to hurdle.

I remember selling 100-card lots back in the 1980s. A customer bought a few hundred 1987 Wally Joyner cards and was so excited. "It's just like buying stock in a player," he said. Well, it didn't work that way. Joyner took home some decent paychecks and had an above average 16-year career, but his rookie cards plummeted from their initial price.

This CC card doesn't necessarily go up in value with a good season. It certainly goes down with a significant injury or a bad season. But ultimately, its value doesn't directly correlate to her performance, and it isn't liquid like stocks on the exchange. It's value hinges solely on whether there's a greater fool out there.

[ALBB]

IMO - waste of money

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It's interesting to read this discussion. Everyone is talking about this card as though it is a stock on the NYSE. Instead of P/E ratio and future earnings, the factors are relative performance and injury risk.

CC had a terrific collegiate career, so that everyone knew her popularity was sky high before her rookie season. As was stated, Panini issued several 1/1 cards.

Anyway, this card is not a stock certificate related to CC or her future earnings. It is a bit of recently printed cardboard which is selling for the price of a very nice 5-bedroom house in the suburbs of Minneapolis, or 150 one-ounce gold coins. The house or gold would be investments. The bit of cardboard is somebody relying on the "greater fool" theory, with an insanely high bar to hurdle.

I remember selling 100-card lots back in the 1980s. A customer bought a few hundred 1987 Wally Joyner cards and was so excited. "It's just like buying stock in a player," he said. Well, it didn't work that way. Joyner took home some decent paychecks and had an above average 16-year career, but his rookie cards plummeted from their initial price.

This CC card doesn't necessarily go up in value with a good season. It certainly goes down with a significant injury or a bad season. But ultimately, its value doesn't directly correlate to her performance, and it isn't liquid like stocks on the exchange. It's value hinges solely on whether there's a greater fool out there.

Sure seems there are many fools in the CC marketplace. This is a great example of why regular people are willing to go broke gambling on breaks — because right now there’s always some asshole with too much money willing to dump a life-changing amount on such items.

[bk400]

I'm frankly most surprised by how the value of that card reflects on the increasingly popularity of the WNBA. It's a progressive step socially, and I'm all for it, even if I am more of an Angel Reese fan personally.

[Snapolit1]

Amazing the ire that's been kicked up over CC. Only a fool would buy this card. It's unanimous.

She is the face of a league, will be a great player for a number of years, and will remain an iconic person for many years after that. To a generation of young girls she is basically Mickey Mantle.

Can't say the same for Jasson Dominguez or Adley Ritschman.

I could give a few thousand examples of stupider purchases in the last few years.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Amazing the ire that's been kicked up over CC. Only a fool would buy this card. It's unanimous.

She is the face of a league, will be a great player for a number of years, and will remain an iconic person for many years after that. To a generation of young girls she is basically Mickey Mantle.

Can't say the same for Jasson Dominguez or Adley Ritschman.

I could give a few thousand examples of stupider purchases in the last few years.

I think the only thing unanimous is that only a fool would spend $660,000 on this card — but maybe we’re all wrong. She’s a great player — and in Iowa, she’s just a slight step behind Jesus. There’s a level of worship that’s unparalleled in women’s athletics. She is an idol to millions of girls ... but they don't buy cards in large numbers and never will.

[rjackson44]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Amazing the ire that's been kicked up over CC. Only a fool would buy this card. It's unanimous.

She is the face of a league, will be a great player for a number of years, and will remain an iconic person for many years after that. To a generation of young girls she is basically Mickey Mantle.

Can't say the same for Jasson Dominguez or Adley Ritschman.

I could give a few thousand examples of stupider purchases in the last few years.

agreed 100 pct only a fool

[packs]

I think talking about what Clark has done makes for an easier explanation than talking about what she hasn't. She's made the WNBA relevant. Everyone makes time to talk about it on their show now. The games are national news. Everybody in the country knows who she is.

Every sport needs somebody like her.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by rjackson44

agreed 100 pct only a fool

If they can sell it for $1,000 more than they paid for it, they're not stupid. Time will tell.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by packs

I think talking about what Clark has done makes for an easier explanation than talking about what she hasn't. She's made the WNBA relevant. Everyone makes time to talk about it on their show now. The games are national news. Everybody in the country knows who she is.

Every sport needs somebody like her.

Tiger Woods was that for golf -- probably the greatest individual impact to a sport the world will ever see. He was hated by many of his peers even though he made them all more money. While her worldwide reach isn't the same, Clark is very similar.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Amazing the ire that's been kicked up over CC. Only a fool would buy this card. It's unanimous.

She is the face of a league, will be a great player for a number of years, and will remain an iconic person for many years after that. To a generation of young girls she is basically Mickey Mantle.

Can't say the same for Jasson Dominguez or Adley Ritschman.

I could give a few thousand examples of stupider purchases in the last few years.

Now that's a good way to look at CC.

Holy crap, $660K. Can you imagine how many vintage sets someone could put together with those $$$. Here's another way to look at this, if it's a 1/1 then it's much more rare than a T206 Wags. Insert vomiting emoji.
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[packs]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

Tiger Woods was that for golf -- probably the greatest individual impact to a sport the world will ever see. He was hated by many of his peers even though he made them all more money. Clark is very similar.

I think Tiger is a great comparison. Hopefully Clark is able to maintain the good will.

[Snapolit1]

Imagine being the guy who paid $200,000 for a Wander Franco card.

[packs]

But what would Wander Franco have to do with a transcendent athlete? He wasn't one. He was just the number 1 prospect and there's one every year.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

But what would Wander Franco have to do with a transcendent athlete? He wasn't one. He was just the number 1 prospect and there's one every year.

He likes to transcend in other ways

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Imagine being the guy who paid $200,000 for a Wander Franco card.

Wander who?
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[packs]

My point was comparing people who buy into prospects to people who buy into Caitlin Clark doesn't make a lot of sense. Caitlin Clark is symbol for her sport. She's not just another prospect who might be good.

I also think you guys tend to miss something about modern collecting. People often make the comment "you could buy a Babe Ruth for that". Sure, and that's how I'd rather spend my money too, but there's also an element to collecting vintage that includes never having seen a player like Ruth play. I think too many of you discount the thrill of having THE card of THE player of your lifetime while they're THE PERSON of their sport.

[Snapolit1]

I bet that CC card will sell again for a million. In the next two years. Just a hunch.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I bet that CC card will sell again for a million. In the next two years. Just a hunch.

I'd rather have the CC card than the $3.1 million Luka Doncic.

[JollyElm]

jacobmarleygreggjefferiescard.jpg

[raulus]

Definitely seems like a lot of bread for a modern card. But any modern card that sells above about $500 seems grossly overpriced to me, so what do I know?

Of course, everyone who is focused on career accomplishments and stats has a good point. But on the other side, you have Charizard, whose career is entirely fictional, and (according to a quick web search), the 1999 Pokémon Base Set Shadowless 1st Edition Holo in PSA 10 usually fetches almost a cool half mil.

[oldjudge]

If this was the only 1/1 rookie card I could see a big number--nowhere this big but big. However, there are multiple Panini 1/1 rookie cards. How many? Not a clue. Panini just prints and prints. To get a feeling for their volume look at the list of PSA registry sets for say 2024. There will literally be hundreds of Panini sets. Does each WNBA set have a 1/1 Clark associated with it--not a clue, but I bet quite a few do.
Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. BTW, the CBA is currently being negotiated and the talks have not gone well. I think there is a reasonable chance of a work stoppage next season. I wonder if that would have any impact on WNBA cards.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by raulus

Definitely seems like a lot of bread for a modern card. But any modern card that sells above about $500 seems grossly overpriced to me, so what do I know?

Of course, everyone who is focused on career accomplishments and stats has a good point. But on the other side, you have Charizard, whose career is entirely fictional, and (according to a quick web search), the 1999 Pokémon Base Set Shadowless 1st Edition Holo in PSA 10 usually fetches almost a cool half mil.

Going along with that, according to Wikipedia:
A truly one-of-a-kind card, the population 1 PSA 10 Illustrator Pikachu was bought by YouTube influencer Logan Paul in 2022 at a valuation of $5.275 million dollars, making it the most expensive Pokémon card ever sold. More specifically, he paid $4 million in cash plus a PSA 9 Illustrator Pikachu he previously owned.

So maybe the CC card was a bargain?

[wagnerj03]

Originally Posted by raulus

Definitely seems like a lot of bread for a modern card. But any modern card that sells above about $500 seems grossly overpriced to me, so what do I know?

Of course, everyone who is focused on career accomplishments and stats has a good point. But on the other side, you have Charizard, whose career is entirely fictional, and (according to a quick web search), the 1999 Pokémon Base Set Shadowless 1st Edition Holo in PSA 10 usually fetches almost a cool half mil.

There is also the Pokemon Illustrator card that went for 5.2 million. Crazy money indeed

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com...g-trade-697189

[Schlesinj]

Wait till the graded version 1/1 Logowoman card is auctioned off.

[oldjudge]

What was a great deal was the contract Panini signed with Clark:


Caitlin Clark Signs Exclusive Partnership With Panini America
Caitlin Clark has a multiyear exclusive partnership with Panini America, covering trading cards and signed memorabilia. The deal includes an initial payment of over $1 million in the first year, with future payments tied to the amount of product created. This marks Panini's first exclusive partnership with a female athlete.

So they got the rights to Clark for her rookie season for roughly $1 million. My guess is that this was the best signing they ever made.

[conor912]

Wow! This hobby never ceases to amaze me. I personally don’t see myself ever spending a single dollar on a WNBA card, but I do find it absolutely fascinating to see who values what and how much.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Going along with that, according to Wikipedia:
A truly one-of-a-kind card, the population 1 PSA 10 Illustrator Pikachu was bought by YouTube influencer Logan Paul in 2022 at a valuation of $5.275 million dollars, making it the most expensive Pokémon card ever sold. More specifically, he paid $4 million in cash plus a PSA 9 Illustrator Pikachu he previously owned.

So maybe the CC card was a bargain?

Well certainly better than the unopened BBCE box of packs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fred

Wander who?
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Wandering down the road to oblivion.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by conor912

Wow! This hobby never ceases to amaze me. I personally don’t see myself ever spending a single dollar on a WNBA card, but I do find it absolutely fascinating to see who values what and how much.

It is amazing, isn't it. Not just WNBA, but any time it's not one of the big four sports, you can be shocked at the prices if you didn't know better beforehand.

As for the WNBA, I've never had a conversation about the league with anyone. Don't know anyone in my personal life who has watched a game or been to a game. In fact, I thought they resurrected the league last year, thinking it shut down at least five years earlier. I found out mid-season that the league played all the way through when I saw an article title that compared last year's attendance to the previous seasons. I know people who watched Clark at the end of her final college season, but they didn't crossover into WNBA viewership.

As the saying goes, to each their own. I would never spend a dollar on anything WNBA related because I have no interest, but I'm also a grown man who collects Funko Pops and can't wait for the new Simpsons ones to come out, so who am I to judge.

[oldjudge]

Hi John! I’m an avid WNBA fan and have been since 2016. Woman’s basketball is my favorite sport, far surpassing baseball. And to make matters worse I have no idea what Funko Pop is.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Hi John! I’m an avid WNBA fan and have been since 2016. Woman’s basketball is my favorite sport, far surpassing baseball. And to make matters worse I have no idea what Funko Pop is.

Jay, I, too, have no idea what a Funko Pop is! I'm an old fart who has watched the Washington Mystics as long as they have been in existence. In fact, I'd rather watch a Mystics game than a Washington Wizards game! In fact, I prefer to watch just about any ol' WNBA game to just about any ol' NBA game these years. By far, the best and most enjoyable NBA basketball I have ever watched was the Boston Celtics of the 1950's-60's with Cousy, Russell, Sharman, Ramsey, and the Joneses. All this said, baseball has always been, by far, my favorite sport.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Hi John! I’m an avid WNBA fan and have been since 2016. Woman’s basketball is my favorite sport, far surpassing baseball. And to make matters worse I have no idea what Funko Pop is.

I knew I should have worded what I said different because you posted in this thread. It would have been better to say family and friends I see somewhat regularly. The WNBA has never been a Facebook topic from a friend on there. Like I said, I thought the league reformed last year after at least 5-6 years of being shut down. It just never came up. You and I have obviously met numerous times and talked over 100 times I'm sure, but we have definitely never talked WNBA because this thread is how I found out you have bad taste in sports

Not knowing what Funko Pops are actually makes things better for you, not worse. They are basically new versions of toys that were new when I was a kid, all with a specific look that makes them different and stand out. It's sort of like a bobblehead without the bobble. Now I only collect retro Pops that were things I liked in the past, but some people have thousands of them covering all types of TV shows, movies, athletes etc. I only have ones that have some good memories attached for me. My collection is about 60% Simpsons now, maybe 140 total pieces.

The one cool thing about them is you can design them to look like people you know and I've done that as a gift for people on more than one occasion. Also, my mom has about 15 Pops and she's old enough to remember watching new episodes of the Waltons, so it's an all ages type collectible.

[bnorth]

Like the great Norm Mcdonald once said "The next time I watch a WNBA game will be the first time I watch a WNBA game."

Another great one from Norm was "WNBA if you want to sell some tickets try shirts vs skins."

I also had no idea what a Funko Pop was. But as an older man I collect pictures of young athletic in uniforms and to make it kinda weird I sometimes buy clothes they wore. So I don't make fun of anything anyone collects.

[Beercan collector]

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