BIN- Buy It Now or Buy It Never?

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

A number of Board Members have noted that E Bay has migrated from its
roots as an auction site to a site where dealers attempt to sell fixed price items on line.

Whilst this model may work in a plethora of different categories, it makes little or no
sense for pre-war graded baseball cards.

Nearly 70% of all listings in the pre- 1930 baseball category are Buy It Now.

Limiting our discussion to graded cards so that we can compare BIN prices with
the prices published on the highly respected web site, Vintage Card Prices.com,
we found that more than 65% of the cards we researched were listed at 50% above
the most recent two prices realized published on Vintage Card Prices.

A number of dealers were regularly looking to sell their "rare" items at 200-400% above
the Vintage Card Prices most recent sales average.

Given the gloomy economic picture, one where "Cash is King", and the likelihood that the economic
climate will become far, far more difficult over the next 36 months, we do not understand the
logic of those dealers who are listing their items at such crazy prices.

Whilst we have not tracked all the cards listed over $1000 for the past year, more than 85% of cards
we have tracked did not sell.

One major dealer has had three 1933 Sports Kings Carl Hubbel cards in PSA 8 for more than a year.
He has not moved $1.00 on his price (about 40%) over the last recorded Vintage Card price sale..
and won't know take an offer which was 15% more than he paid.

Why do dealers continue to list the same cards week in and week out at prices which are way out of line
with reality?

In our opinion these sellers are either hoping for a miracle and/or they are so out of touch
with reality that they are in a state of total denial.

What do you think?



Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: leon

I think the dealers with extremely high prices just like looking at their inventory. I tend to agree with you that it's absurd to offer something like a SGC 60 Red Cobby with a common back for $3200 when the last 30 of them have traded in the 2k range, and they are not scarce. This card I picked is just a random example but is very indicative of many of the prices I see too...regards

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Posted By: PC

Well, I agree!

Some dealers love their inventory a little too much, or they don't need to sell and can hold out for the occasional "sucker" that will pay their price (and thereby fund another month of eBay listing fees).

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I peruse the pre-1930 category about twice/day and I literally gloss right over the BIN's...they slide right down without me paying any attention whatsoever. Are there ever any reasonable BIN's in that category?

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Posted By: JDRUM

I agree with Leon. These guys are like the fellow with a nice car that parks semi-sideways across three parking spaces so everyone will notice their car. For the most part it has gotten so ridiculous that I refine most of my searches to auctions only.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Great topic Bruce. It is beyond me why these dealers continue to list their inventory on ebay at most outrageous prices. Prices, mind you, that were high at the height of the market. Certainly there are fewer buyers and those buyers that remain with fewer dollars to throw at collectibles. It must reason that these dealers simply do not need money, yet.

For the time being I have started doing searches by checking off the "auctions only" filter. It is a waste of time to sift through the BIN auctions and even those with Best Offer options. Their prices are so high to begin with there is not enough they can discount to make a deal desirable.

Greg

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Posted By: JimCrandell

It is not only pre-war but post-war and all sports! I am amazed to see the same stuff sitting there month after month at huge premiums to fair value.

Just last month I approached a person with a huge inventory of graded cards and held out the possibility I could spend $50,000 but be would have to come down near market prices. He absolutely refused. For a lot of the stuff I was arguably his only buyer as we were talking about low pop commons in psa 8 in sets that there are not many collectors. I figured time was on my side but who knows?

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Posted By: Anthony S.

I actually bought two items via Buy it Now about two weeks ago. Two T205 commons in "authentic" holders. First time in over a year that I actually found a price fair enough to justify using the BIN. The next day the dealer listed a few more T205 commons, also in authentic holders, with an asking price 50% higher.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think it's a matter of time before they will change their business strategy. Those silly high prices can't go on forever. And I hate that ebay has turned into a high end retail market. That's not what it's about.

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Posted By: Michael Steele

At first, those BIN's were annoying. Now, like Dan, I cruise the pre-30 category and have learned to ignore the BIN's after seeing them for the ump-teenth time.

I think it has been posted before but BIN's on pre-war cards are really a "virtual museum" for showing off. Like most things, this might not be 100% true but it is rare when a seller has a decently priced BIN.

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Posted By: keyway

Not only are most bin prices high, but some of these guys put these items on for 30 days.

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Posted By: leon

I generally click on the "auctions only" tab and thereby don't have to sift through the 67% of too high priced BIN's....However, when I am checking what was listed most recently I will include them. I haven't done a BIN in a long time.....

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Posted By: peter ullman

I've purchased 2 BIN's in the last 4 months...both tough cards albeit in lesser condition at what I thought were fair prices. But...this is the exception as the great majority are at absurd prices. I agree that most of these guys are fishing...and aren't too concerned about moving there prized inventory just awaiting the return of irrational overexhuberance! It may be a while!

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Posted By: Anonymous

I once went through each of the BIN categories in the Pre-1930 and the 1930-39 section. I did not buy a single card, but at more than point I did have a good laugh.

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Posted By: Ty M

About a month ago I had an interesting transaction with a high-end ebay dealer. He had a vintage card listed as BIN or best offer for $12,000 and it had been in his ebay store for at least a year I believe. I offered $2,500 to see what kind of response I would get. After a few emails back and forth we agreed to $3,700. I'm still not sure of the logic of the original pricing.

Ty

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Posted By: Erick Lewin

I agree. There are so many fewer auctions than maybe 6 months to a year ago. I may have to resort to searching "auctions only" soon. It's time consuming sifting through all the absurd prices. You'd think there would be more auctions with people in need of cash during tough economic times. Maybe if the economy gets worse auctions will start becoming more prevelant again but who knows?
It's getting tougher to find stuff, even though prices have been better for buyers, I think, when an auction does come along.



E. Lewin

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Posted By: barrysloate

I predict it's going to change soon. Dealers will either start lowering their prices or stop listing these overpriced cards.

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Posted By: Mac Wubben

So the question is...why are dealers acting like dealers? I don't see any difference between standard show behavior and this ebay behavior. I guess at least at a show you have the opportunity to talk them down from the absurd prices...an option not always available on ebay. I find it particularly annoying that certain dealers sit on a mountain of cards that do nothing but gather dust until the dealer can get 200% of fair market value (never mind the continuous ebay fees, and opportunity costs...those are clearly irrelevent to the dealers' smart business operation).

Mac

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The problem with resorting to reviewing auctions only is that there are simply so few traditional auctions. With the advent of VCP, surely these dealers/sellers are aware that buyers can easily check what their cards are worth? For an example, one idiot seller listed two PSA 4 Cracker Jack cards for a BIN or best offer price which was a few hundred dollars more than he paid for the two cards just days ago -- all of this info easily found by a quick check on VCP. Of course, the idiot seller received not a single offer. Because the original BIN is so obviously unfair, rarely will a buyer even make a legitimate offer figuring that the seller is rigid and unrealistic with the value of his cards. So we're left with thousands of BIN listings that just clog up the categories, with nary an offer being made on any of them.

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Posted By: barrysloate

There is this misdirected mindset that as soon as someone purchases a card, it must be worth far in excess of that amount. It's as if he is the only one with the keen insight to notice this great deal. So if he buys it for $100, no question it must be worth $250. And of course it rarely is.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I agree with Bruce as well. The pages full of display only items at BIN is frustrating to page through and prices never seem to move. I have made offers and been turned down. My thought is they can keep them.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

As a buyer, it sucks, but I would imagine that the sellers wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't working for them.

-Al

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, that's true with so many purchases in life. People just ignore reality and presume that the economy/stock market/real estate values can only go one way. I suppose that dealers who earn their livings solely from selling/buying cards should be the first ones to see the light, however, because they have to sell their cards in order to eat. So why does the stubborness continue to exist?

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Posted By: Steve

It exists because Ebay is not the only venue they sell at.

Steve

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Posted By: Matt

I've bought and sold several items that were listed with BINs - obviously there are a ton of dealers out there with ridiculous prices who make eBay into somewhat of a museum, but there are sellers who use BINs at reasonable levels to ensure a card they want to sell doesn't sell below a price they are comfortable with in auction format.

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: doug goodman

Ty M - The logic of the original price is "it can't hurt to try". I seldom make a BIN purchase without sending an offer for less. I have had offers accepted for as much as 80% off the listed price.

Doug

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Posted By: Fred C

You know you spend too much time on a bull board when you read the post without knowing who wrote it until after you figured it out by reading the first paragraph. Totally Bruce!

Here's one story:

I listed a very beat up card (that many people would like to have) on ebay with a somewhat high BIN. The first time I listed it at $1200, nobody wanted it. I did get $1000 offers for it. A few months later I listed the same card at $1400 and nobody bought it. I did, however, receive $1200 offers for it. A few months after that I listed that same card at $1600 and nobody bought it. I did get offers of about $1400 for it. A few months past and someone offered $1600 for it but by that time my asking price was up to $1800 for it. Guess what, someone finally bought it for $1800.

I usually pass on those ridiculously high BINs but truth be told if it's something I was waiting for I might consider it if I felt that I'd never see that card again for a long time (or ever). I guess that dismisses any T206 cards (Cobb, etc). I'm talking about cards that are a little tough to come by. For example, if I saw an OJ I really had to have....

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Posted By: Andrew

Where the inflated BIN strategy might work is for low demand, but hard to find items.

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: Matt

"I listed a very beat up card (that many people would like to have) on ebay with a somewhat high BIN. The first time I listed it at $1200, nobody wanted it. I did get $1000 offers for it. A few months later I listed the same card at $1400 and nobody bought it. I did, however, receive $1200 offers for it. A few months after that I listed that same card at $1600 and nobody bought it. I did get offers of about $1400 for it. A few months past and someone offered $1600 for it but by that time my asking price was up to $1800 for it. Guess what, someone finally bought it for $1800. "

If you initially listed it with a $1200 BIN and a month later got an offer of $1200, why would you turn it down?

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: JDRUM

if it is a condition rarity or a high-demand, rarely seen obscure tough-as-H-to get item. But many of these sellers obscenely overprice fairly pedestrian (as in relatively common) items in all grades. Even more astonishing is many of them will list 3-4 of the same item in the same grade all overpriced reinforcing the notion that they are not all that hard to come by. To Matt's (Hi Matt) point there are some sellers who list a few items with realistic BIN prices based upon available data. My fear is that increasingly fewer potential buyers are seeing them because of the filtering going on because of the other listings.

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Posted By: Rob D.

At least with high BINs on eBay you know what you're dealing with. Contrast that to auctions in which consignors are "protected", hidden reserves are put in place or you don't know whether you're bidding against a legitimate buyer or a shill.

That being said, it is comical seeing the same cards popping up time after time on eBay searches, all with ridiculously high prices. Think of it as like walking onto a car lot: The sticker price can mean little, depending on what you're buying.

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Posted By: Matt

Jeff (Hi Jeff) - I share your concern, as above we have people who don't even look at any BIN listing at all. Not sure what the solution is, but I'd suggest there are some fair buys to be had that would be missed if you don't look at the BINs.

Perhaps what eBay needs is a way to filter out items from particular sellers.

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: B O\'Brien

I also hate the BIN. I have bought two or three things. Two were things that I had looked for and hadn't been able to buy other ways, and did pay a good 50% over market, so I was the sucker on those two.

I was able to find one the night before last, that I considered to be a good value. I was the first person to view the listing and bought it, from a seller that is usually pretty high on the BIN's. I was very surprised to see the listing.

Take care,

Bob

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Sadly Rob's point is the truth. You just don't know what the true value of a card is even after it's been 'sold' at an auction. So many sellers use hidden reserves via shill bidders. One card I looked at today in one of the auction house auctions going on, for example: I checked out VCP to see what the card in that grade was worth and lo and behold the very same card presently at auction was 'sold' in November of last year. The seller was a well-known dealer/card doctor who employs shill bidders and wouldn't you know it, the card received dozens of bids and the 'winner' just happened to have private feedback -- and has zero bids in the past 30 days. Clearly, the seller had an extra ebay ID laying around to 'buy' the card at his hidden reserve. Just a couple months later the card is about to be sold at another auction.

The long-winded point is that at least with BIN or best offers you know you're not getting screwed; problem is any offer one makes is often predicated upon a false, prior sales price for a similar card with the similar grade.

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Posted By: George L

Barry, I agree 1000% with your comments and actually started a thread a few weeks ago about people buying on ebay and listing the same card a week later for 3 to 5 times what they just purchased it for, I think is was titled..reselling on ebay so quickly...I basically got hammered with responses by many board members that "its a free country, who cares, they can do what they want" But when Mr. Sloate, a man I respect on this board greatly, repeats my pet peave and posts about the misdirected mindset of a buyer purchasing a card, and then listing it at double or in barry's example 150% mark up, it is a great post. I was referring to not only listing it so quickly but at triple what you just bought it for..as if saying, your an idiot, I am not, so let me show you. Just found it funny that Barry posted something and no on mentioned anything but i got mostly no support from any members when I started a thread. Interesting.



Re: BIN- Buy It Now or Buy It Never? January 24 2009, 6:06 PM


There is this misdirected mindset that as soon as someone purchases a card, it must be worth far in excess of that amount. It's as if he is the only one with the keen insight to notice this great deal. So if he buys it for $100, no question it must be worth $250. And of course it rarely is.

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Posted By: MikeU

It only costs 35 cents a month ($4.20/year) to list the card. If you can sell a $1,000 card for $1,500, you could take a few years to do it and still make out ok.

707 is King of the overpriced BIN card. However, he is probably one of the few dealers that has actually prospered for many years. Maybe Levi has the right plan. Kit Young and Larry Fritsch are somewhat similar. Who else has been around at a high level for as long as they have? Are they considered on the higher price side? What discount dealers have existed for as long as they have?

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Posted By: George L

Yes, some of the names you mention have been successful with outrageously priced buy it nows. I know that I had to give in and bite the bullet on some 61 topps high #'s. I needed 4 or 5 of them quickly and unfortunately he was the only guy offering them. I emailed back and forth and he wouldnt budge. I think after spending a ridiculous amount of money, he waived the shipping fee. Guys like 707, Fritsch and others stayed in business because although prices were high, many times they were the few you can count on to have a card that was needed quickly.

I felt ebay helped them list and reach a greater audience, but also probably hurts them because many of their cards they list can be readily available for half the price. As a previous poster said, it is very inexpensive to list a buy it now all year...fortunately for them, you only need one person who either doesnt care about money and just pays the price, or like I was, in a jam and needed it quickly.

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Posted By: Cy

Are you guys sure that these people aren't making sales? Just because the board members aren't buying these cards, does not mean that other people aren't buying a lot of cards from BIN sellers.

I looked at the past sales of a big dealer that many people on the board think has high BIN prices. And he made quite a few sales over the last month and many of the cards seemed high priced to me, but he still is making many sales.

That is why they continue to post high BIN prices. People ARE buying them.

Cy

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Posted By: Fred C

Matt,

The card I wrote about is a truly sought after card. I figured I really didn't want to sell it unless I got the price I was asking for it. When I asked $1200 for it someone should have just ponied up the cash and bought it. I didn't "have" to sell the card and if it never sold it wouldn't bother me. I'm not against negotiating but in the case of this card, I was "holding all the cards" and negotiation wasn't in my vocabulary for dealing that particular card.

I've dropped prices on cards in the past, but why sell it if you really don't have to and especially if you know the demand for it would allow you to sell it later at a higher price.

I've sold cards to other collectors for less than I would have gotten from others because the person that wanted it had a "hobby" need or interest in the card, rather than an investment angle. Yeah, I'm a dope because I've left money on the table but in some cases I'm a sap that way.

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Posted By: George L

Yes, they are making sales. I look once or twice a week at completed items and people have paid some pretty ridiculous buy it now prices. It may take them 6 months to sell the card, but I guess if they are advertising it in their store for 35 cents a month, $2.10 isnt a big deal when they sell the card for 30-50% higher than it would go for in an ebay auction.

George

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Posted By: jason

edited due to anonymity rule. If you are going to give a strong opinion about a company then your name, and good email, needs to be in this post. I don't know you (I do know you post a little bit, so sorry about that) and neither do most of the board....nothing personal (leon)

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Posted By: Fred C

Edited because the response above mine was edited and the information in the response could have been taken out of context. Hey BW, I found it!

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Posted By: boxingcardman

If the seller isn't willing to suffer a potential loss on a card and decides to list it at a fixed price, you either BIN the card or you don't get the card. That's why I find it so asinine for people to quote VCP results at me; if they believe that is the right price for the card, go find the card for that price and quit bothering me. Since it is obvious they cannot find the card for that price, the VCP results are irrelevant.

Ebay has encouraged the use of BIN pricing by making it dirt cheap. Think of it from the weekend warrior seller's perspective: my choice for covering the downside on a card is (1) use a reserve (which costs me some money and turns off people), (2) start with a high minimum (ditto), (3) use a $0.35 fixed price (perhaps with best offer), (4) refuse to sell. So, do I spend several dollars to generate a listing that protects my downside or do I do it with $0.35? The card will sell or not sell at a level I deem acceptable either way. Ebay has made it so by its pricing regime; buyers may dislike it but if they want the cards, they will adjust. If not, I keep my card having ventured only $0.35 to see if it will sell.

I do not foresee any movement away from this dynamic until the economy turns. Card buyers are hoarding cash unless greed for a bargain supersedes their fear and card sellers (many of whom do not rely on card sales to make a living) do not want to sell their cards at those prices. Those who do not need to sell will use cheap listing fee BINS to do it and not waste their cards in auctions.

One final point: I find it quite interesting that people who "invest" on the theory that you do not sell an investment into a slump do not apply the same logic to cards sellers are holding in their collectons or inventories. One thing buyers tend to forget when carping about sellers' methods is that these aren't shirts at Macy's; there isn't a ready substitute for the last card in that set you've been working, and sellers know it. The desperate ones are selling into the storm, but many are just choosing not to play Black Friday sales games and are instead holding their tough inventory.


Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Rob D.

I find it quite interesting that people who "invest" on the theory that you do not sell an investment into a slump do not apply the same logic to cards sellers are holding in their collectons or inventories.

Excellent, excellent point.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I find that E-bay BIN's are like high end antique stores. The prices are outrageous and the dealer feels like it is less work to move a few items at a huge profit rather than many items at a small profit. I visit a antique store regulary in my area and i am shocked at what some folks will pay for things while i am standing there. To me there is no fun in BIN,reserves or schill bidding. Everyone knows the dealers that protect their items and it is easy to spot. I just auctioned off three American Beauties and had a thought at what the cards would bring, i never schill or protect anything because my theory is let the market decide the value, if a card sells cheap then their is a ended auction result that allows you to buy the same card cheaper. The Ankles Aweigh PSA 7 which is one of the top 5 cards of the set went far below the value but the No Stares PSA 8 went for 432.00 which i thought was fantastic. I put three more Beauties on E-bay and the Live Wire PSA 8 is sitting at 22.00 dollars right now, most dealers would already have schill bidded the card well over 100.00 to protect their investment and turned many buyers off. If people would just run true auctions on E-bay they may lose on some items but in the long run it evens out.

I also feel e-bay is the worst place to buy cards period. The cards are not fresh to the market and have been passed around from dealer to dealer. One of the best places to buy pre-war cards is the flea market where guys that clean out houses set up.

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

I'm in agreement with Mr. Dorskind and many others on this thread that the BINs are not in line with the majority of current market prices. I've seen the same E98s on ebay now for at least 9 months! But, who am I say to anyone what they should price what they own to sell. I guess if they want to sell, they will adjust their prices eventually. If not, then I guess they can afford to just sit on their inventory.
Good Thread!
Tim Kindler

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Posted By: JB

Many great points already shared. I also have many questions for these "people"...........if you are looking to move the card, how about at least offer the BEST OFFER option. I cant see anyone hitting an outrageous BIN, period.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Marshall,

I will bid on your American Beauties card if I do not have it. I will also buy it directly from you at a good price if you want to pull it off.

Should any of your other cards be 8s, please consider selling them directly rather than listing on ebay.

Jim

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Jim...thanks for the offer and i will e-mail you in regards to these Beauties. Your collection just blew me away when i saw it and there is no doubt you are the Yoda of high graded cards and you have my upmost respect, i am not saying that in a kiss ass type of fashion it's just i understand the magnitude of your collection. I will say that i had two e-mails wanting me to stop the auction on the No Stares PSA 8 and the highest offer was 175.00 so i thought well let's see what happens and the card sold for 432.00 to a gentleman who needed it for his set on the registry.

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Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

Prudent businesspeople who are in no rush/need to sell will often list items at ridiculous prices. This practice is hardly limited to eBay or to baseball collectibles. The targets are uninformed buyers or buyers who for whatever reason absolutely positively need the item and aren't willing to wait for another one to appear. In most cases I would think the seller has no realistic expectation of selling the item at or near the BIN price. But if an item is worth, say, $1,000, and is listed with a BIN of $5,000, a certain buyer might think he/she is getting a "deal" when the seller drops the price to $2,000.

In a lesser way this practice goes on all the time in merchandising. Many retailers don't even ask for full retail. They immediately list the item at a "sale price". That way the customer immediately thinks he/she is getting a deal when he/she buys the item for 50% off. I can't tell you how many times my wife has come home beaming over what a great purchase she made. I'm still trying to think of a way to persuade her that the retailer never had any intention of selling the item for "full retail", and that her purchase at 50% off was in fact full retail.