Exhibits dating question

[birdman42]

Hi,

I've seen a listing for a "1922" Exhibit of Harry "Nemo" Liebold. The card certainly matches what OC shows as the 1922s, but Liebold wasn't traded to the team he's shown with (Washington, natch) until a dozen games into the 1923 season. What gives?

Card: http://cgi.ebay.com/1922-Exhibit-Car...item3cb8ffcfc6
OC: http://www.oldcardboard.com/w/exhibi...?cardsetID=786
(The '23s are borderless)

Thanks,

Bill

[smtjoy]

Thats my listing, nice observation on the team/year, I have the 23-24 version but will not be able to get a look/scan at it until sunday. Anyone else have one-

I do know many people consider the 1921-24 Exhibits to be one full run not 3 different sets and a lot of that has to do with some of the team changes within and dates. Also cards from all of these series can have borders, here are a couple examples-

[birdman42]

OK, thanks, Scott.

I know there's some question over the dating of Exhibits in general. Just another mystery awaiting the right person to do the research.

Bill

[Exhibitman]

I am absolutely convinced that the 1921-23 'sets' overlapped and that the latter issues represent replacement cards and additional cards. That pattern holds in the boxing sets as well, which are easy to actually date because they have written backs with copyright dates on them. It appears that the company came out with sets of 64 cards in 1921 then started additions and removals after that for two years. That is why the 1921 issue is the easiest to finish--by far--and the 1923-24 set is so difficult: a good chunk of the 1921 set was issued in 1922 and even in 1923. It is also why some of the 1921 cards seem easier than others: I believe there are short prints within 1921 itself, representing cards that were removed in 1922 or 1923. A prime example is Groh, with the bottle bat:



Most of the collectors I know who worked on the set had some trouble finding a Groh card. Groh was traded from the Reds to the Giants in December 1921. There is no 1922 or 1923 Groh reflecting the trade. Yet ESCO regularly updated team info in the 1920s. When Joe Dugan went from the Sox to the Yankees, for example, his card was updated. Updating required redoing the original art, which was pen writing on a photograph:



then reshooting it and making a new printing plate. Apparently no one bothered with Groh.

Then there are the reconfigured cards in the 1923 issue, which are 1921s with borders added [e.g., Ruth] or 1921s with background details removed and/or different cropping [e.g., Veach]. In both cases the original artwork was reused but altered with "tricks" to make a new card. IMO this was a labor-saving device that the company's artists came up with in order to generate "new" sets at less effort [cost]. I also know from analysis of postwar cards that the company reused art for as long as it could and thus created substantial spillover from one "set" to another. This sheet has a Salutations Ted Williams next to a 1961 Rocky Colavito:



The 1921-1922-1923 set differentiation was the work of Elwood "Woody" Scharf, who pioneered the study of these cards. His analysis was the result of his best effort; it is not canon law.

[bbcarddan]

Exhibits dating question. Wow excellent explanation of the differences in these sets! All I can recommend for dating an Exhibit is dinner and a movie and don`t talk about your ex!

[ls7plus]

Wow is right! You know I'll buy the Exhibits book when you publish it, Adam, and it would be a tremendous addition to what's out there on cards. Love the Exhibits--high end images/cards, IMO.

Best regards always,

Larry

[smtjoy]

I had a tough time with Groh too same goes for Peckinpaugh, Scott, Veech and Dugan. Still looking to upgrade a couple of them.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

I had a tough time with Groh too same goes for Peckinpaugh, Scott, Veech and Dugan. Still looking to upgrade a couple of them.

Not surprised: all were updated in the 1922 or 1923 set. Peckinpaugh had a 1922, Scott had a 1922, Veach had a 1923, Groh had a 1923, and Dugan had both a 1922 and a 1923 (the 1922 has Boston, the 1923 has NY and a border). If my theory holds, all are short prints relative to many of the others in the 1921 initial issue.

[cliftons8]

Adam,
In your initial post you said that Groh had a 1921 but no updates in 22 or 23, but in your second post you say that he has a 1923. Can you clarify?

Thanks,
Mike

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by cliftons8

Adam,
In your initial post you said that Groh had a 1921 but no updates in 22 or 23, but in your second post you say that he has a 1923. Can you clarify?

Thanks,
Mike

Yeah. I misspoke. He has a 1923 card, completely new photo.

After a while one heinie looks like all the others.