M101-4/5 Expert Needed

[Schwertfeger1007]

I recently acquired a card that I'm looking for more information on.

I've spoken with a few vintage collectors who know way more than me and no one can seem to properly identify it.

Who is considered the premier "expert" of mid 1910's cards?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Schwertfeger1007

I recently acquired a card that I'm looking for more information on.

I've spoken with a few vintage collectors who know way more than me and no one can seem to properly identify it.

Who is considered the premier "expert" of mid 1910's cards?

Is there a reason you can't post it here? No one has as much information, by far, than the collective forum.
.

[Schwertfeger1007]

I recently picked up this Lajoie which has the same image as the 1915 W-UNC but this one is bolder and has two lines of text (vs one in the W-UNC).

I think this might be mislabeled by SGC but don't know what it could be...

The two lines of text look more like the M101 4/5 issue but does not have a number underneath it.


If anyone has any information I would appreciate it.

[Leon]

What are the dimensions?
It reminds me of a 1915/6-W-Unc if it isn't one. And I think there is probably more to learn about this set too.

Here is a Salesman's sample Successful Farming. They didn't have numbers and I am not aware of other series that didn't.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Pic of the back would obviously be helpful, or is it blank?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Pic of the back would obviously be helpful, or is it blank?

It will be blank (unless there is something I don't know, which there might be). I think they got it right though...
.

[Schwertfeger1007]

Blank back.

Measures around 1 5/8 x 2 13/16.

[Schwertfeger1007]

@Leon do you know of any other 1915 W-UNC with two lines of text? I haven't been able to find one. Also the image looks like it jumps off the card, not washed out like the other hand cut W-UNC's I've seen.

There were also two other 1915 W-UNC Lajoie's that sold recently (I think one is on ebay FS) and both had only the single line of text and look different.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Schwertfeger1007

@Leon do you know of any other 1915 W-UNC with two lines of text? I haven't been able to find one. Also the image looks like it jumps off the card, not washed out like the other hand cut W-UNC's I've seen.

There were also two other 1915 W-UNC Lajoie's that sold recently (I think one is on ebay FS) and both had only the single line of text and look different.

And here is another for sale. I don't know, offhand, if any had 2 lines of text. But like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if there were variants. BTW, the size of yours matches the 1915-W Uncs and is smaller than a M101-4/5 series.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/35522331630...Bk9SR6jM7tuWZg

.

[paul]

There was a thread about this very card a dozen or more years ago. I started it, but I'm terrible about searching for old threads. The one thing I remember is that another member posted a Felix Mendelsohn flyer picturing this Lajoie along with more standard M101-5s.

[Tom S.]

Originally Posted by paul

There was a thread about this very card a dozen or more years ago. I started it, but I'm terrible about searching for old threads. The one thing I remember is that another member posted a Felix Mendelsohn flyer picturing this Lajoie along with more standard M101-5s.

I think this is the thread that you were referring to:

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...ghlight=lajoie

[Andrew1975]

Paul, here is a link to the thread you started...

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148565

[Schwertfeger1007]

It's def a card stock and not hand cut. So after reading all the back and forth from the original post it sounds like it could be a M101 sample in a Clev. uniform which wasn't used in the set bc they decided to go with a Phil. image.

Am I getting closer??

[gregndodgers]

Fascinating thread! The blank back M101 promo cards are very rare (a few exist?) but so are some of the rare back regular issue M101s. I guess the fact they are promo cards makes them unique, and perhaps more desirable. On the other hand, the fact that thousands of regular issue cards (with ad backs) were produced but in many cases only a few survived also makes them very desirable. So, generally speaking, I’m not sure the M101 promo cards have more appeal or are more desirable than the rare backs.

Thoughts?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Schwertfeger1007

It's def a card stock and not hand cut. So after reading all the back and forth from the original post it sounds like it could be a M101 sample in a Clev. uniform which wasn't used in the set bc they decided to go with a Phil. image.

Am I getting closer??

Except for it being a different size, and not by a tiny bit, you could be there.
I still think it is probably a 1915 Unc variation. Kind of like the 2 lines vs 1 line captions of D381 Ferguson vs D381 Fleischmann....

.

[nolemmings]

It is an interesting card but not likely a promo card given the size. The only promo cards that I know of are a singular Holmes to Homes Walter Johnson, which I call a promo because it is unnumbered even though there is no evidence of a promotion, and the 6 Successful Farming cards mentioned in the magazine’s May 1916 issue. Here is the Lajoie from that group:


There is no evidence thus far that Mendelsohn used salesmen for m101-4/5, unlike the m101-6 premiums where he recruited heavily for hawkers, and no evidence that samples were sent by mail either. I have not held in hand the flyer that was discussed in the old thread from 2012 regarding the OP's Lajoie, but assume as mentioned there that any player shown on it would have printing on the back if cut out even if it was the correct size and stock for m101.

The change in pose is probably best explained by the change in team uniform Nap is wearing, although it might also have been made to show more “action”. Mendelsohn’s ads for these cards focused on players being in “action”, and all or nearly all of the non-manager cards depict the player holding some equipment–bat, ball or glove, or a few in follow-through. Maybe Felix thought a hands on knees pic was too passive.

It is unclear where the OP’s card belongs on the Mendelsohn evolutionary chart, but it should be there somewhere IMO. I believe he was behind the production of what now has been catalogued as the 1915 W-Unc set, but I surely can’t prove it. I also believe he toyed with the oversized version in 1915 of which three are known (mentioned in the old thread), and then settled on the size and style for what we now call m101-4/5. Here is one of the biggies:


Little or no info has surfaced since that thread in 2012 discussing the OP's card, so for now it looks like I would agree that this is part of 1915 W-Unc. That being said, it could be an unissued variation, or the next step pre-production to m101-4/5. Just to stoke the fire, look at this ad for m101/5 that appeared in the Chicago Examiner, showing Matty as part of the set one could obtain:



Such card was never part of either m101-4/5, yet it appears it was ready for inclusion. Note that the same pose is used in the 1915 W-Unc set, although with only one text line,


and that it is also used in the mystery three-card group from that year, with two lines.



So it appears that other cards were either produced or ready to go but were replaced and/or never made it. The mystery remains, and the OP's card just adds to it.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Schwertfeger1007

I recently acquired a card that I'm looking for more information on.

I've spoken with a few vintage collectors who know way more than me and no one can seem to properly identify it.

Who is considered the premier "expert" of mid 1910's cards?

Definitely the premier expert on the whole M101-4/5 and related issues has just spoken (a hint: It is not me).

Brian

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

It is an interesting card but not likely a promo card given the size. The only promo cards that I know of are a singular Holmes to Homes Walter Johnson, which I call a promo because it is unnumbered even though there is no evidence of a promotion, and the 6 Successful Farming cards mentioned in the magazine’s May 1916 issue. Here is the Lajoie from that group:


There is no evidence thus far that Mendelsohn used salesmen for m101-4/5, unlike the m101-6 premiums where he recruited heavily for hawkers, and no evidence that samples were sent by mail either. I have not held in hand the flyer that was discussed in the old thread from 2012 regarding the OP's Lajoie, but assume as mentioned there that any player shown on it would have printing on the back if cut out even if it was the correct size and stock for m101.

The change in pose is probably best explained by the change in team uniform Nap is wearing, although it might also have been made to show more “action”. Mendelsohn’s ads for these cards focused on players being in “action”, and all or nearly all of the non-manager cards depict the player holding some equipment–bat, ball or glove, or a few in follow-through. Maybe Felix thought a hands on knees pic was too passive.

It is unclear where the OP’s card belongs on the Mendelsohn evolutionary chart, but it should be there somewhere IMO. I believe he was behind the production of what now has been catalogued as the 1915 W-Unc set, but I surely can’t prove it. I also believe he toyed with the oversized version in 1915 of which three are known (mentioned in the old thread), and then settled on the size and style for what we now call m101-4/5. Here is one of the biggies:


Little or no info has surfaced since that thread in 2012 discussing the OP's card, so for now it looks like I would agree that this is part of 1915 W-Unc. That being said, it could be an unissued variation, or the next step pre-production to m101-4/5. Just to stoke the fire, look at this ad for m101/5 that appeared in the Chicago Examiner, showing Matty as part of the set one could obtain:



Such card was never part of either m101-4/5, yet it appears it was ready for inclusion. Note that the same pose is used in the 1915 W-Unc set, although with only one text line,


and that it is also used in the mystery three-card group from that year, with two lines.



So it appears that other cards were either produced or ready to go but were replaced and/or never made it. The mystery remains, and the OP's card just adds to it.

Wow! Great stuff indeed! That Matty is pure joy! Thanks!

[Spike]

Earlier posts mentioned how M101-4/5 calls out that the photos show players in action and using game equipment. Given the number of different store-related backs, is it fair to guess they sought out stores/advertisers who sold baseball gear and other athletic stuff as prospective partners? (In preference to other kinds of stores that happen to be where families or kids shop.)

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Spike

Earlier posts mentioned how M101-4/5 calls out that the photos show players in action and using game equipment. Given the number of different store-related backs, is it fair to guess they sought out stores/advertisers who sold baseball gear and other athletic stuff as prospective partners? (In preference to other kinds of stores that happen to be where families or kids shop.)

I’m not sure Mendelsohn had a strong preference when seeking advertisers, since he also ended up with a few breweries and a movie theatre along with some bakeries and publications. Still, it is clear he had an advertising plan for stores that sold stuff to boys, because half of the eighteen m101 advertising backs are affiliated with department stores, and nearly all of those used very similar newspaper ads that Mendlesohn no doubt helped create, describing the cards and showing pics in the same format. These ads told readers the cards could be had on the floor where boys clothing was sold. I am uncertain how many stores sold mostly or only sporting goods back then, as I know many such goods were ordered via mail or catalogue, but Green-Joyce directed folks to its sporting goods department for Mendelsohn’s “Stars of the Diamond”.

On a different note but in keeping with other posts in this thread, I reviewed the 1915 W-Unc cards and recall that Larry Doyle is included. Like many others in the set, his card is based on a pose found in a Police Gazette supplement; however, the Doyle supplement did not get issued until February, 1916, which not only calls into question the dating of the W-Unc set but runs into the beginning of m101 production. Can someone show us that the Doyle photo was used elsewhere in 1915? I know Lew Lispet wrote an article about the W-Unc set for Old Cardboard in 2010 that might help explain the dating, but I cannot find my run of OC mags anywhere and am tired of searching. See below (obviously not to scale):

[JamesGallo]

the Matty pose was also in the Police Gazette per the last post on this old thread.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=123763&page=2

James G

PS anyone got any 1915 W-Unc for sale or trade LMK

[nolemmings]

James,
Please check your pms.
Yes many of the poses found in the W-Unc set find their origins in Police Gazette premiums, although I did not see the other Matty pose shown a few posts above as one of those premiums. Most or nearly all of the W-UNCs used either PG pics or others that were found later in m1014/5 (which themselves came from earlier uses such as m101-2 and Cracker Jack).