Another T206 Wagner

[Leon]

I have been messaging and messaging and messaging with a new member. He doesn't seem to believe me when I tell him what he has. I explained in detail.

So, without further ado, please let him know what he has.

[npa589]

A fake Honus Wagner card that has been artificially aged. The front was obvious, but the back was hilariously obvious. Tell him congrats for us!


Edited to add more specifics - the spidering visible on the back occurs in modern paper, not the cardstock used in 1909. You could leave a genuine card in water for days, heck probably in coffee, and the spidering that appears across the imperfect modern paper would not show up on the cardstock. If it were soaked in coffee, it would turn brown - but equally brown.

The front color is washed as it would be with a modern printer. Very obvious counterfeit.

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[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have been messaging and messaging and messaging with a new member. He doesn't seem to believe me when I tell him what he has. I explained in detail. So, without further ado, please let him know what he has.

Or, more precisely, what he DOESN'T have...

[npa589]

Leon: I would like to offer the new member $2 for the Wagner, but only if he burns it and throws it away.


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[butchie_t]

If the person is so sure....have them get it graded to protect their "investment"

You have done your best Leon, no use in belaboring the point.

Butch

[tiger8mush]

Unless he paid $100k+ to some shady character thinking it was real, he knows what he has is fake.

[GasHouseGang]

Maybe you can show him a picture of a real T206 Wagner?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Leon

So, without further ado, please let him know what he has.

One third of a drink coaster.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by npa589

Edited to add more specifics - the spidering visible on the back occurs in modern paper, not the cardstock used in 1909. You could leave a genuine card in water for days, heck probably in coffee, and the spidering that appears across the imperfect modern paper would not show up on the cardstock. If it were soaked in coffee, it would turn brown - but equally brown.

When did "modern" paper start being used for cardstock? And what is it that makes modern paper susceptible to spidering?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

When did "modern" paper start being used for cardstock? And what is it that makes modern paper susceptible to spidering?

A lot of vintage paper was made using recycled rags, so have to imagine a much stronger durability factor overall, but pulp became more in favor even in prior to most card issues.

[Beercan collector]

It’s almost comical how delusional these people get - Trying to wish something into existence

[bmattioli]

So the million dollar question.. What did you tell him?

[Leon]

I took out his name and some of the people he was emailing....and after the below exchange he still wanted me to post it.

Originally Posted by bmattioli

So the million dollar question.. What did you tell him?

Sure

From:
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 12:58 PM
To: leonl@flash.net
Subject: Re: honus wagner

I cant find search on your forum or any t 206 yet along post this can you post it for me thanks



Sorry to bother you again but I found this out, aol has a good picture program here on my lap top after downloading it, then it lets me blow the picture up, Thank you so much for your help David

On Monday, August 11, 2025 at 11:41:08 AM EDT, member> wrote:


Yes Sir, I read the same thing friday sence then I have done much research
with my buddy. We have found out that this card is a 1910, 350 back
made by factory #25 in VA. between VA and factory #30 in NY they had 5 different runs that year each one being a valiant the wagner was printed from 1909 to1912 before Mr. Wagner had his name and card withdrawn one of two possible reasons he didnt want kids buying cigarettes to get a baseball card
and two its said that the cigarette company didnt pay him enough Mr. Wagner retired after 1909 only to come back when offered an additional 10 thousand dolars to his salary doubling it. I have seen another card somewhat the same as mine but not the back only the front and its in the museum in NY the web address to see the backs and where made are at is at
t206resource.com/Backs%20Gallery.html
this is the home address T206Resource.com - home
click backs at top tab scroll down to the sweet caporal backs
it is worth noting that each variant each of thee 5 runs they had that year is different and used different color ink size and backs somewhat, also I have took pictures outside of the holder when upon opening hoder I smelled it and yes it had that old age smell the card stock is very thin, I will send new pictures I opened mine mine in a paint program and blow the pictures up for a better look. I find it hard to beleive its fake at all, I think its printed that way each run different my buddy says we really dont know what they did back then printing these cards. I think its a one of kind and very rare. one guy said it had coffee or tea poured on it to make it look old and fake, for the life of me I see pattern with the background and impossible to do. I also think the crackling he called it goes around to the front only on the outter 1/8th edge perfect to the border line another impossible thing its centered to a point, so is a few others I saw this weekend, Yes the 150 backs was printed in 1909 afterwhich they added more players and printed 350 in 1910 from their out. 400 something the following year to 1912
It cant really be a rookie card unless of the fact he quit and came back in 1910
anyway its an old card 115 years old and worth money like I read any wagner card no matter the back is worth money
Thank you sir, for your time David


On Tuesday, August 12, 2025 at 01:14:19 PM EDT, leonl@flash.net wrote:


You are all set…your password is xxx

Here are your pics resized so you can post them on the forum with no issue…. But again, it’s like me looking at a banana and someone asking me if it is a car…..This is the absolute epitome of what a fake looks like. A classic, perfect example.

From:member
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 12:05 PM
To: leonl@flash.net
Subject: Re: honus wagner

why would someone fake a 350 back people would think right away its fake they did make 350 in 1910 heres the pictures plus my info for the second time so as I can join the forum thank you

(correct contact info)

these pictures are out of the holder

On Tuesday, August 12, 2025 at 12:53:01 PM EDT, wrote:


It doesn’t matter though. Yours is a $1 reprint. And only a few had 350 backs…but again, that has no bearing on your fake card. Send it over again and I will post it on the forum and you can see what 100% of the collectors and dealers say. It is not even close whatsoever.

From: member
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 11:49 AM
To: leonl@flash.net
Subject: Re: honus wagner

yes my web search, to prove they made 1910 honus wagner with 350 backs

On Tuesday, August 12, 2025 at 10:38:39 AM EDT, wrote:


Is there some reason you sent this?

From: member
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2025 11:31 PM
To: Net54baseball.com Forums
Subject: Fw: honus wagner



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: member
To: David Kohler
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 at 12:29:42 AM EDT
Subject: Fw: honus wagner



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: member
To: Mark a .....com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 at 12:28:59 AM EDT
Subject: Fw: honus wagner



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: member
To: 06140@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 at 12:28:03 AM EDT
Subject: Fw: honus wagner



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: member
To: someone else
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 at 12:26:15 AM EDT
Subject: honus wagner

did they make 1910 honus wagner baseball cards with the 350 backs
Yes, the American Tobacco Company did produce 1910 Honus Wagner baseball cards as part of their T206 set. However, production was halted relatively early due to Wagner's objections, making the T206 Honus Wagner card one of the rarest and most valuable baseball cards ever
Yes, a small number of the T206 Honus Wagner baseball cards were produced with "350 Subjects" backs.
The American Tobacco Company's T206 series, released from 1909 to 1911, featured cards with backs advertising different tobacco brands.
Here's more information about T206 Honus Wagner card backs:
• Most of the known Honus Wagner cards have either a "Piedmont 150/Factory 25" or a "Sweet Caporal 150/Factory 25" back.
• A smaller number of Wagner cards have a "Sweet Caporal 150/Factory 30" back.
• It's important to note that the Honus Wagner cards were quickly pulled from production due to Wagner's objection to his image being used to promote tobacco products, which makes any genuine T206 Wagner card, regardless of the back, incredibly rare and valuable.
The existence of T206 Honus Wagner cards with 350-series backs, while extremely rare, highlights the fascinating and complex variations within this iconic baseball card set. It's highly unlikely that an original 1910 Honus Wagner T206 baseball card has a "350 back but.
Here's a breakdown:
• T206 Set:
The T206 set was produced by the American Tobacco Company (ATC) from 1909 to 1911 and featured different cigarette and tobacco brand advertisements on the back.
• Honus Wagner Card: The Honus Wagner card within the T206 set is exceptionally rare because Wagner requested its production cease shortly after it began.
• Common Backs for Wagner: The vast majority of the few existing T206 Honus Wagner cards feature a "Sweet Caporal 150 Series - Factory 25" back.
• Other Known Backs for Wagner: A smaller number have a "Sweet Caporal 150 Series - Factory 30" advertisement, and only three are known to have a "Piedmont" backing.
• "350" Backs: The "350" designation often refers to a series within the T206 set that was part of the second printing, which included different players or players who had changed teams compared to the first series. While brands like "Piedmont 350" exist, it's not a common or known back for the Honus Wagner card itself. It's more likely to be found on other players' cards within that series.

[Musashi]

It reads like he "did his research" by asking an AI

[frankbmd]

Like a current ad asks, “Does this fellow know he is sitting on a gold mine?”

[bmattioli]

Thank you.. Some people still amaze..

[Eric72]

So...two things:

1. The card is a counterfeit.
2. The person who wrote that email mashed together ChatGPT and hope-ium fueled stupidity.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Let's put it this way. As owner of an auction company it does me no good to tell people their stuff is fake.

Your card is fake.

[trambo]

It didn't take more than a few seconds to see it's a fake and the 2nd second was only because I was watching baseball on TV when I glanced at the image.

Again, definitely an aged reprint but I would imagine how exciting it must've felt finding it and thinking it was worth a zillion bucks. Unfortunately, it all came crashing down.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by trambo

It didn't take more than a few seconds to see it's a fake and the 2nd second was only because I was watching baseball on TV when I glanced at the image.

Again, definitely an aged reprint but I would imagine how exciting it must've felt finding it and thinking it was worth a zillion bucks. Unfortunately, it all came crashing down.

Right.
I hope he didn't quit his job over this windfall!

.

[raulus]

Good luck to the owner.

It's hard to swallow sometimes to learn that you don't really have a card worth 7 figures. Hopefully you didn't pay anything to get it.

And if you're just trying to scam some hopeless yet somewhat greedy rube into buying it off of you for real money, then you need to develop a better back story, like finding it inside an envelope taped to the underside of a dresser drawer. Or maybe you found it in an old attic that's in a swamp somewhere.

[Tao_Moko]

I worked in a card shop in the '80's and '90's and would take these and show the owner a real one(not Wagner obviously) held up to a bright light, and then theirs held up. Aside from the other tell/tell signs, if you can see the silhouette through the back when holding up to the light then you see the difference. Next would be to show the difference in printing through a magnifying loupe. For the owner of this card - Unfortunately there is zero % chance that this is authentic. Buy a low cost authentic T-206 and a $10 loupe and check for yourself. There are available resources for what to look for when viewing through a loupe.

[Luke]

Standard counterfeit, but if you believe yourself over everyone else, PSA will take your $20,000 and tell you the same

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Luke

Standard counterfeit, but if you believe yourself over everyone else, PSA will take your $20,000 and tell you the same

Does PSA charge if the card comes back as questionable authenticity? The once or twice that has happened to me, my recollection is that they didn't charge me.

Now, for something like this, they might make an exception, just to keep from being inundated with fakes and reprints trying to sneak their way through, with zero downside.

[Beercan collector]

Sometimes I think some non-collectors see these on Etsy and think they stumbled upon something nobody knows about

[Exhibitman]

Bluntly speaking, these threads are kinda stupid and merit only one reply:

TO THE OWNER OF THIS ITEM:



If you really believe that you have what you think you have, don't waste your time (and our time) here soliciting armchair opinions. No one here is going to buy a raw "T206" Wagner. If you want real answers, take it to a reputable auction house or, better yet, send it for grading. If not, you are just another scammer looking to get rich quick on someone else's hope and/or stupidity.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by raulus

Does PSA charge if the card comes back as questionable authenticity?

Yep.

[jchcollins]

It's ironic how predictable this type of stuff is, yet we see it over and over again and are somehow still amazed.

At the end of the day, if you tell somebody something they really just don't want to believe in their hearts - they aren't going to believe you. Whether that's the fact that Dad is Santa Claus, or that the T206 Wagner you found in the attic is a fake. Perhaps the most deep end example of this is that "Cobb Edwards" Wagner that those two guys have been trying to prove is real (it's not...) off and on for multiple decades now. Some of the lengths they have gone to are absurd.

It still somehow makes me feel like the bad guy to point stuff like this out. Guy at a show earlier this year came up to a dealer table I was standing at as if he had a snake in backpack, and pulled out a very obviously fake '49 Leaf Jackie Robinson. When I rendered my opinion (& the dealer agreed...) the guy just looked at us both as if we'd kicked his dog.

[Exhibitman]

Happens all the time in my business. Reality checks are not fun. Clients come in with fantastical expectations for their cases and I have to bring them back down to earth. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard "yes, but" from a potential client with a fantasy claim, I'd own a real T206 Wagner.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by raulus

Does PSA charge if the card comes back as questionable authenticity? The once or twice that has happened to me, my recollection is that they didn't charge me.

Now, for something like this, they might make an exception, just to keep from being inundated with fakes and reprints trying to sneak their way through, with zero downside.

You absolutely get charged for ?authenticity. You don't get charged for Min Sz or factory MC if it's diamond cut and they won't grade it.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You absolutely get charged for ?authenticity. You don't get charged for Min Sz or factory MC if it's diamond cut and they won't grade it.

Correct. Make no mistake - PSA makes a boatload of cash every year on cards like this and fake ‘52 Mantles. Part of the reason the grading cost is as high as it is based on value is to discourage people from submitting obvious fakes.


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[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Part of the reason the grading cost is as high as it is based on value is to discourage people from submitting obvious fakes.

Perhaps I'm reading something incorrectly, so forgive me, but I don't think they mind people sending the fakest of the fake, and welcome all of it. A sub is a sub. They are not in the business of discouraging any money that comes their way. Grading costs are only high because people keep paying it.

This thread does make a person wonder how many people have actually spent that kind of money submitting an obviously fake/reprint Wagner (well, not obvious to the submitter).

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Perhaps I'm reading something incorrectly, so forgive me, but I don't think they mind people sending the fakest of the fake, and welcome all of it. A sub is a sub. They are not in the business of discouraging any money that comes their way. Grading costs are only high because people keep paying it.

Truth!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I don't think they mind people sending the fakest of the fake, and welcome all of it. A sub is a sub. They are not in the business of discouraging any money that comes their way. Grading costs are only high because people keep paying it.

All a matter of perspective. If I were a vintage card novice, it would be discouraging to ME personally at that price point to sub something that I knew so little about.

Put another way, if they are going to be in the business of passing judgment on fakes, you can be damn sure they are going to set themselves up to be well compensated for it…

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by Luke

Standard counterfeit, but if you believe yourself over everyone else, PSA will take your $20,000 and tell you the same

Does PSA really charge $20,000 to grade the Wagner ?

[BRoberts]

That’s a lot of beers.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Does PSA really charge $20,000 to grade the Wagner ?

It’s all based on insured value, but that might actually be light. Here’s the pricing for stuff that gets up above $350k in value.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Does PSA really charge $20,000 to grade the Wagner ?

Why not? They do it so well.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Why not? They do it so well.

Yes they must do it very well indeed. Look at all the people willing to pay the prices they charge.

[premiercardcollectors]

So many things wrong with this. Looks like they used tea to age it.


Geoff Bedine
Premier Card Collectors
Since 1977

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Sometimes I think some non-collectors see these on Etsy and think they stumbled upon something nobody knows about

Actually I think that's how it usually happens. A collector spots the card on a non-conventional site for cards such as Etsy, Kijiji or Craigslist and thinks he's taking advantage of a non-collector who's selling an item he found in a deceased relative's cigar box not realizing that it's an absolute treasure.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by raulus

Good luck to the owner.

It's hard to swallow sometimes to learn that you don't really have a card worth 7 figures. Hopefully you didn't pay anything to get it.

And if you're just trying to scam some hopeless yet somewhat greedy rube into buying it off of you for real money, then you need to develop a better back story, like finding it inside an envelope taped to the underside of a dresser drawer. Or maybe you found it in an old attic that's in a swamp somewhere.

And you need to reference "my uncle" or "my old man" somewhere in the post.