Ethical question re: selling/grading

[Snapolit1]

You submit a special card to the Opinion Sellers, convinced it's a 9. And a 9 is worth a small fortune. Dreams of finally paying off the mortgage. It comes back as a 7. You are devestated.

Can you crack it out of the holder and sell it ethically without disclosing the disappointing grade? A seller typically has no obligation to disclose all facts about a product for sale. But generally under the law must disclose material facts.

Considering the insanity and inconsistency regarding grading, is a grade once received a material fact? Maybe next time its an 8? Or an 8.5? This is not like rolling back an odometer, or telling someone the house doesn't flood when it does.

I think if you say Mint or words to that effect I think you are over the line. But maybe it's mint to you regardless of the grade.

Putting asise the law, is it ethical not to disclose?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Is this assuming that you, once having received the card in a 7 slab, crack it back out before selling it? It seems to me that, once you do this - with the sole intention of reselling it - you've already traversed whatever ethical boundary there might be. If you don't intend to hide the grading history, why crack it out at all?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

You failed to mention it, but this is all assuming you've cracked it out of the 7 holder and are selling it raw.

In that case, you are under no ethical obligation to reveal the grade. Since it's raw, simply invite prospective buyers to use their own eyes to determine condition for themselves before committing to purchase. As we know, any card can receive multiple grades if submitted multiple times, so it's just (and was just) an opinion.

Honestly, more onus really needs to be on buyers when making purchases. As a seller, you're ethically bound to reveal all things wrong, and it doesn't hurt to offer a guarantee that it will pass inspection. The number grade it receives isn't your moral concern.

Selling an untainted card you were convinced would net you a higher grade but didn't is fine. It makes you wonder how many times the card in question has already been through this exact process with various owners!

You can certainly write, "In my opinion, this is a mint card" without writing "some grading company begged to differ" and it's fine. Again, I would be more keen to stress that customers use their own knowledge and eyesight to draw their own conclusions while offering a guarantee that it will pass TPA inspection. The latter point shows your goodwill as a seller, while the former politely says, "You can do a little work yourself..." without being at all crass.

Or, just keep submitting the same card as much or as little as you determine is correct. Better yet, can you find an auction house you like who does a lot of business with the TPA? Remember, "It's all about relationships"! Ask if they could submit it with the proviso that it gets slabbed only if it reaches your desired grade. It would be your choice whether disclosing the full history to the AH is in your best interest or not. They can also examine the card themselves prior to submitting it. If they agree with your grade assessment, then they would obviously be on board with trying this out. I think this may be your best idea, and with no accompanying ethical quandaries to bog down your mind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think there is an obligation, generally, to disclose grading history. If a card was deemed trimmed or otherwise altered, then probably. If someone specifically asks, I would tell them.

[Snapolit1]

Yes, after getting the "lousy" grade you crack it out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yes, after getting the "lousy" grade you crack it out.

Well that was obvious of course; if you were selling it in the holder the question would not come up in the first place.

[Snapolit1]

If I have a rare 1969 Camaro that I want to sell, and my know it all neighbor car guy stops by and says "in my opinion that's not the original engine. . . ," do I need to disclose Mr. Know It All Neighbor's opinion?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I have a rare 1969 Camaro that I want to sell, and my know it all neighbor car guy stops by and says "in my opinion that's not the original engine. . . ," do I need to disclose Mr. Know It All Neighbor's opinion?

If he really does know what he's talking about, I would seek other opinions to determine whether or not it is original. To me this analogy is more like "altered vs not".

[boysblue]

YOU think the card is a 9. PSA thinks the card is a 7. Whose to say that PSA is correct and you are wrong?

[tiger8mush]

Nope don't need to disclose it, but I think it'd be ethical to disclose any flaws that a potential buyer would see when the card is in hand that might not be obvious in scans.

[The Detroit Collector]

I don't think you need to disclose it. The problems come if you state "MINT" or something along those lines, knowing that it was already graded a 7 Near Mint.

Another problem is if it comes back altered. If you crack it out and try to sell it raw, without disclosing it being altered, there is an ethical problem with that.

[Section103]

I guess the question is how ethical do you want to be in a hobby environment that isnt particularly ethical?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think there is an obligation, generally, to disclose grading history. If a card was deemed trimmed or otherwise altered, then probably. If someone specifically asks, I would tell them.

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

I don't think you need to disclose it. The problems come if you state "MINT" or something along those lines, knowing that it was already graded a 7 Near Mint.

Another problem is if it comes back altered. If you crack it out and try to sell it raw, without disclosing it being altered, there is an ethical problem with that.

If your own opinion is that the card wasn't altered or trimmed but a TPG said it was, why would that have to be disclosed when a grade you disagree with wouldn't? Isn't it still just a difference of opinion?

[The Detroit Collector]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If your own opinion is that the card wasn't altered or trimmed but a TPG said it was, why would that have to be disclosed when a grade you disagree with wouldn't? Isn't it still just a difference of opinion?

Then why are you cracking and reselling? It seems to me you are cracking and reselling, to get more money for the card, because you know a raw card Is worth more than an altered.

You either "believe it is not" altered, crack it out and keep it.

Or

Sell it as graded alter.

To crack it out and resell raw without mentioning it was deemed altered is a sleezy way to pull one over on a seller.

[jsfriedm]

Presumably the question is not just about disclosing the grading, but also the pricing. If you were intending to price it as a PSA 7, there would be no reason to crack it out. So the reason for cracking out must be that you would like to price it higher. Most people will probably say that if someone is willing to pay your price, all's fair in love, war, and baseball cards. But I think it is important to note that the value of a PSA 9 is the specific value of a PSA 9, not the value of a raw card that maybe looks like a PSA 9. A PSA 9 has certain properties (for example, the ability to sell it to someone else without having to convince them that it should be a PSA 9) that do not adhere to the raw card and are included in the value.

[jsfriedm]

Also, as far as "opinion sellers." I understand peoples' gripes with TPGs, and I share plenty of them myself, and I get that they may not be up to this level of professionalization (although, knowing something about the area, maybe they are). Anyway, that said: PSA is an "opinion seller" in the way that Fitch or Moody's is an "opinion seller." They have their opinion on say, whether a particular country will default on its debt, and you are entitled to your opinion. But your opinion does not mean the same thing in the real world as Moody's or Fitch's.

[doug.goodman]

It doesn't matter if you disclose because cards don't sell for 9 prices, only slabs do.

[perezfan]

No need to disclose as long as it's not altered. What makes their opinion any better than yours? (assuming you're a veteran collector). You could submit the card 5 different times, and easily get 5 different grades, anyway.

It is just one of their grader's opinions on a given day. And what if the card was submitted 5 or more years ago? The grade would likely be 2 points higher than if graded today. So who's to say that the "7" you received is correct or even accurate?

I get much better grades when submitting through an auction house, as suggested above. Mile High, in particular gets really high grades via PSA. I had a card graded PSA 4, cracked it out, submitted it raw to Mile High, and it came back a PSA 7. Other times, I've done the same and gotten similar bumps of 2-3 grades. NEVER would have happened, had I submitted myself.

So going through an AH is a great option if you want to sell it graded. If you want to sell it raw, just call it "NM-MINT".

[G1911]

As it takes about 2 seconds to type that it was once a PSA 7, the only reason not to disclose is because that factual disclosure is likely to lower the price. That makes it material and relevant. I say always just tell the full truth, but I know the vast majority prefer not to disclose facts that might hurt their wallet. Telling the truth is always more ethical than not disclosing material facts that might not help the price. Life is better if you just tell the truth instead of trying to find ways why it's okay not to disclose pertinent facts that don't help you.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

As it takes about 2 seconds to type that it was once a PSA 7, the only reason not to disclose is because that factual disclosure is likely to lower the price. That makes it material and relevant. I say always just tell the full truth, but I know the vast majority prefer not to disclose facts that might hurt their wallet. Telling the truth is always more ethical than not disclosing material facts that might not help the price. Life is better if you just tell the truth instead of trying to find ways why it's okay not to disclose pertinent facts that don't help you.

Very admirable take... But how do you define "truth"? This assumes the grader's opinion that day is the word of God. We all know that he could easily submit that card 5 different times and receive 5 different grades. And we know that if graded a few years ago, it would have a higher grade. And we know that a different TPG would likely give it a different grade.

As long as humans are grading these cards, is there really any "truth"? People have become way too reliant on TPG.

[chalupacollects]

Well, do you know how many times the card was submitted previous to you finding it raw?

If not unless deemed altered or defective it’s probably ok if you offer it correctly…


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[jayshum]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

Then why are you cracking and reselling? It seems to me you are cracking and reselling, to get more money for the card, because you know a raw card Is worth more than an altered.

You either "believe it is not" altered, crack it out and keep it.

Or

Sell it as graded alter.

To crack it out and resell raw without mentioning it was deemed altered is a sleezy way to pull one over on a seller.

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Well, do you know how many times the card was submitted previous to you finding it raw?

If not unless deemed altered or defective it’s probably ok if you offer it correctly…


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Why do you have to agree with a TPG opinion that a card is altered but you don't have to agree with their opinion about it's numerical grade? They have clearly missed identifying altered cards and given them numbers. Can't they also make a mistake when they say a card is altered?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Why do you have to agree with a TPG opinion that a card is altered but you don't have to agree with their opinion about it's numerical grade? They have clearly missed identifying altered cards and given them numbers. Can't they also make a mistake when they say a card is altered?

Yes they could I would think but it would give the seller a thought to look deeper into the condition to see if truly altered…


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[The Detroit Collector]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Why do you have to agree with a TPG opinion that a card is altered but you don't have to agree with their opinion about it's numerical grade? They have clearly missed identifying altered cards and given them numbers. Can't they also make a mistake when they say a card is altered?

Then resubmit it? Submit to another TPG? Why crack and sell?

[NiceDocter]

Tell everything I know about the card good bad or indifferent. Show scans. Negotiate a fair price. It seems like this whole thread is about “ how much is it okay to lie by omission”. You can justify it all you want but that’s the way it seems. The Mean Streets of card collecting have jaded many a good man along the way. I continue to fight against those forces . Maybe nice guys ( and NiceDocters) finish last but with honor . Enough of this …. I have to go alter some 1971 Topps…. LOL…..

[LEHR]

No need to disclose. It's an opinion. The 7 you got back could be a 9 next week and a 5 the week after that. One thing opinion sellers are not known for is consistency.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

Then resubmit it? Submit to another TPG? Why crack and sell?

So if you resubmit it and then it gets a numerical grade, do you have to disclose that it originally came back as altered?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jayshum

So if you resubmit it and then it gets a numerical grade, do you have to disclose that it originally came back as altered?

Exactly. The only reason to disclose is if you are asked directly. Then you tell the truth of what it used to be.

I don't ever recall buying a graded card (I have bought at least 25 . (thousand) and asked if it had been in another holder, or rejected, before? Unfortunatly, the holder is gospel while the card is in it.

That said, I have turned down buying tons of graded cards because they looked altered to me.
.

[Lucas00]

I'm fairly certain this is extremely common in the TCG space. Often time raw cards sell for more than PSA 9s. That's just what I've heard though. Don't hear anybody complaining about it there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Exactly. The only reason to disclose is if you are asked directly. Then you tell the truth of what it used to be.

I don't ever recall buying a graded card (I have bought at least 25 . (thousand) and asked if it had been in another holder, or rejected, before? Unfortunatly, the holder is gospel while the card is in it.

That said, I have turned down buying tons of graded cards because they looked altered to me.
.

TPGs missing alterations is, I believe, far far far more common than calling an unaltered card altered.

[The Detroit Collector]

Originally Posted by jayshum

So if you resubmit it and then it gets a numerical grade, do you have to disclose that it originally came back as altered?

If you resubmit it, it is because you believe the TPG got it wrong. Same situation for those who get a 5 and crack it out because they believe it should be a higher grade and resubmit.

If it comes back a numerical grade, then no I dont believe you need to disclose it was once altered, because the TPG reviewed it again and believe they got it wrong the first time.

As I stated before, why not do this is you think they got it wrong? Why not crack and resubmit or submit to another TPG?

I will go back to my original question you like to ignore. Why not resubmit, instead of cracking and selling raw?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

So if you resubmit it and then it gets a numerical grade, do you have to disclose that it originally came back as altered?

Can you honestly say that if you were buying a card, it would make NO difference to you that the card had been previously rejected by a TPG as trimmed (for example)?

[ALBB]

This discussion is similar to a few years back when a few card " doctors" did their work and it slipped past the almighty PSA to turn 7's into 9's...


Those collectors who ponied up huge money for these " altered" cards... come the day they sell...will they disclose the info ? or keep quiet ..unless asked ?

Or did/will they ..break card out of holder...and again - disclose what happened ?, or only if asked ?

Those poor duped collector could be out thousands of dollars based on their decision to " do the right thing...or not "

[Arazi4442]

Speaking from the buyer POV, personally, I would be suspicious of any card worth a "small fortune" being sold raw. Now a lot of people may disagree with me and try to make some money off the deal assuming the card would grade an 8 or 9 (or maybe they have a good "relationship" with the TPG) - but my assumption would be that there's something wrong with it. Lower value card not so much of a problem.

So, as the seller, ask yourself if the possible reduction in potential buyers would cost you as much money as just selling it as a 7? Of course, if it's already cracked out of the slab - ignore my post.

[tycobb]

Originally Posted by Section103

I guess the question is how ethical do you want to be in a hobby environment that isnt particularly ethical?

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[jayshum]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

If you resubmit it, it is because you believe the TPG got it wrong. Same situation for those who get a 5 and crack it out because they believe it should be a higher grade and resubmit.

If it comes back a numerical grade, then no I dont believe you need to disclose it was once altered, because the TPG reviewed it again and believe they got it wrong the first time.

As I stated before, why not do this is you think they got it wrong? Why not crack and resubmit or submit to another TPG?

I will go back to my original question you like to ignore. Why not resubmit, instead of cracking and selling raw?

Maybe because I don't want to send more money to a TPG if I'm not sure they're going to grade my card correctly.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Can you honestly say that if you were buying a card, it would make NO difference to you that the card had been previously rejected by a TPG as trimmed (for example)?

It probably would, but if a raw card that looked really nice had only graded a 5 and had been cracked out because the owner thought it should grade higher, I would probably want to know that, too, so I didn't buy the card thinking it would get a better grade than it might if I end up buying it and submitting it.

[The Detroit Collector]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Maybe because I don't want to send more money to a TPG if I'm not sure they're going to grade my card correctly.

Then why submit it in the first place?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

Then why submit it in the first place?

Because I didn't think it was altered and expected a numerical grade, but after they blew it the first time, why pay them to do it again?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

As it takes about 2 seconds to type that it was once a PSA 7, the only reason not to disclose is because that factual disclosure is likely to lower the price. That makes it material and relevant. I say always just tell the full truth, but I know the vast majority prefer not to disclose facts that might hurt their wallet. Telling the truth is always more ethical than not disclosing material facts that might not help the price. Life is better if you just tell the truth instead of trying to find ways why it's okay not to disclose pertinent facts that don't help you.

I agree with this.

[Fred]

I guess it depends on your moral compass. If it was once assigned a grade then I'd have a hard time not disclosing to the buyer it was in a 7 slab at one time. I wouldn't have cracked it out.

This grading crap is crazy.

Here's another way to look at this. What happens if you sell it in a 7 holder, the buyer cracks it out, submits it and has a 9? I'm going to guess you're not going to see a nice check and thank you from the person that bought it from you.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Very admirable take... But how do you define "truth"? This assumes the grader's opinion that day is the word of God. We all know that he could easily submit that card 5 different times and receive 5 different grades. And we know that if graded a few years ago, it would have a higher grade. And we know that a different TPG would likely give it a different grade.

As long as humans are grading these cards, is there really any "truth"? People have become way too reliant on TPG.

I whine about PSA and SGC and their incompetence and corruption all the time and don't do graded. But it is a truth in the example given that the card was graded a PSA 7. This truth is relevant, of course, because the only reason not to disclose it is that it hurts the price. I don't need to tell a buyer that yesterday I had a ham sandwich for lunch as it is irrelevant, but I should be honest and just take the 2 seconds to disclose the truth that the card was once a PSA 7, as its relevancy is clear. Just tell the truth when its relevant

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I whine about PSA and SGC and their incompetence and corruption all the time and don't do graded. But it is a truth in the example given that the card was graded a PSA 7. This truth is relevant, of course, because the only reason not to disclose it is that it hurts the price. I don't need to tell a buyer that yesterday I had a ham sandwich for lunch as it is irrelevant, but I should be honest and just take the 2 seconds to disclose the truth that the card was once a PSA 7, as its relevancy is clear. Just tell the truth when its relevant

For ten points, name the former Board member whose mantra was, "I don't disclose it because there's nothing to disclose"?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For ten points, name the former Board member whose mantra was, "I don't disclose it because there's nothing to disclose"?

You can't give me 10 points this easily

[The Detroit Collector]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Because I didn't think it was altered and expected a numerical grade, but after they blew it the first time, why pay them to do it again?

So I guess that's my point on why it's not ethical.

You send in a card hoping to get a high grade as the original OP reads. Getting a high grade would be a small fortune.

You send it in and it comes back altered. And your devasted, because there goes your small fortune and now it probably will sell less than you actually paid for it.

But you're saying the TPG are wrong all the time. You can crack it, resend it in and hope it grades. It is a small fortune of course. Why wouldn't you?

But instead, your saying, I don't want to send it in. They got it wrong. Why give them more money. Well, your throwing your chances of a small fortune away. Obliviously a high grade sells much more than raw. And if they are always wrong and you know it's not altered, there shouldn't be any problem resending it in. Or sending it to another TPG.

But instead, you crack it and sell it raw. Well that tells me you don't have confidence that they are wrong. It also tells me you want to at least make your money back on what you bought it for. Because again, if you mention it was altered, which is the moral thing to do, you would be selling it for a lot less than what you bought it for.

So saying it is altered is off the table, because why should I put it in there, TPGs are always wrong, but I don't want to resubmit it again because even though they are always wrong and I could get a small fortune for it, I would rather sell it raw, not disclose it was deemed altered and try to pull one over on a guy buying it, who, who knows, could be new person into the hobby, Not knowing much about vintage cards. Sees a nice example and buys it. Sends it in and it comes back altered again. Now this new person in the hobby has a sour taste in his mouth about this hobby.

That is why it is unethical.

[parkplace33]

This is why I am extremely hesitant to buy high grade raw cards.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

This is why I am extremely hesitant to buy high grade raw cards.

I am extremely hesitant to buy high grade slabbed cards, too.

[puckpaul]

I don’t think you have any obligation at all. The buyer can assess the card and price and decide what to do. Pretty simple. Do you think the seller is obligated to offer the card and say “i need to get $20k but i really think it’s only worth $10k”? Even if the seller thought that? And even if it was a 7, it still could be the nicest 7 ever (possible given today’s PSA standards) and price at a premium.

The buyer has no obligation to buy it at your price. And if the key value determinant to the buyer is what it would grade, the buyer could ask for it to be graded before purchasing, right?

Frankly, i would leave it as is but price what you think it’s worth regardless of the “grade.”

[Schlesinj]

Similar question, you buy a SGC 9 and submit the card to cross and PSA says it does not meet minimum size and it kept in 9 SGC holder.

When you sell it what are you disclosing? Are you “stuck” with a card you can’t sell as a SGC 9.


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[Mark17]

Originally Posted by G1911

As it takes about 2 seconds to type that it was once a PSA 7, the only reason not to disclose is because that factual disclosure is likely to lower the price. That makes it material and relevant. I say always just tell the full truth, but I know the vast majority prefer not to disclose facts that might hurt their wallet. Telling the truth is always more ethical than not disclosing material facts that might not help the price. Life is better if you just tell the truth instead of trying to find ways why it's okay not to disclose pertinent facts that don't help you.

Suppose my neighbor, who is an avid card collector, thinks it is a 6. Does that need to be disclosed, too?

I realize PSA and SGC (and the other opinion sellers) want theirs to be the Word of God... But who actually anointed them?

Fair disclosure:
A grader at XYZ thinks it is a 7
I think it is a 9
The guy I bought it from called it "near Mint"
My neighbor thinks it is a 6
My car mechanic thinks it is a 10, but he wasn't wearing his glasses at the time...

My point is, why is the opinion of one more relevant than the other. Why can't a prospective buyer do HIS OWN grade assessment (a novel thought, I admit.)