Most Overrated Pre-War Player is...

[mintacular]

From a purely statistical standpoint I'm wondering what pre-war player(s) you think are overrated...Not trying to "stir the pot" per se but more interested in which players' legends don't square up with the reality of their accomplishments. Cheers, Pat

[MooseWithFleas]

Enough has been said about T-E-C, but I would have to go with Tinker as one of them.

[rhettyeakley]

All of the Black Sox guys!

[vintagecpa]

Take a look at Johnny Evers stats. He certainly didn't make it in the hall with his bat.

[rp12367]

From what I've seen on stats and my grandfathers stories, I think Evers is overrated. He (grandpa) use to say Tinkers-Evers-Chance was his claim to the hall of fame...

[Bosox Blair]

Evers and Chance are completely deserving Hall-of-Famers. As long as there are people out there trotting out the old nugget that a poem got them enshrined, they are actually under-rated.

Cheers,
Blair

[HercDriver]

Tinker is Rizzuto...either you are a stat guy, then they aren't in, or you're a "value to team" guy and they are. I'll take Tinker and trade Bobby Wallace for Ron Santo...

Take Care,
Geno

[familytoad]

This might not be too popular among some here, but Hal Chase is imo way over rated and by all accounts one of the worst humans to play baseball. I avoid his cards the way he avoided sportsmanship. I cant see the fascination with him nor the Black Sox players, but to each his own.
Statistically speaking, i find it hard to see how many HOFers were included, most drastically Highpockets Kelly, first base, comes to mind.

[SteveMitchell]

Vernon "Lefty" Gomez gets my vote for most over-rated. Several pitchers with superior records (produced for inferior teams) are outside the hallowed walls of Cooperstown and will probably never gain entry. But Lefty's a Hall of Famer and deservedly so. (I just wish several others were also enshrined at Cooperstown.)

[David W]

About half the players in the Hall of Fame who played primarily in the 1920's and 1930's.....

Earl Averill, Rick Ferrell, Chick Hafey, Pie Traynor, KiKi Cuyler, Jim Bottomley, Travis Jackson, Dave Bancroft, George Kelly to name a few off the top of my head.

[D. Bergin]

Hard to believe Sisler is in this conversation. Based on others general knowledge of his career and what seems like a lack of interest in his cards compared to many others, I'd put him right smack into the under-rated category.

The guy had some amazing years, with some awful line-ups around him.

OBP is flawed in that it gives walks the exact same relevance as hits. Hits most often move up runners extra bases, not just one base at a time. Sisler was also a Triples machine and stole plenty of bases.

Put the guy in the middle of a Yankees line-up and we'd be paying Gehrig like money for his cards.

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Hard to believe Sisler is in this conversation. Based on others general knowledge of his career and what seems like a lack of interest in his cards compared to many others, I'd put him right smack into the under-rated category.

The guy had some amazing years, with some awful line-ups around him.

OBP is flawed in that it gives walks the exact same relevance as hits. Hits most often move up runners extra bases, not just one base at a time. Sisler was also a Triples machine and stole plenty of bases.

Put the guy in the middle of a Yankees line-up and we'd be paying Gehrig like money for his cards.

I absolutely agree 100%. Bringing up Sisler's name in this conversation is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen presented in any thread!

[oldjudge]

Tommy McCarthy for one. I also agree that King Kelly, while extremely popular, is overrated. He was comparable to Buck Ewing offensively, but not the defensive catcher that Buck was. In the 1920's, Connie Mack called Buck Ewing the greatest catcher he had ever seen.

[rhettyeakley]

David, I understand why many of the players that are on your list are on there but the one name that really jumped out at me as being the notable exception on your list is Pie Traynor.

At the time Traynor retired he was literally regarded as the greatest 3rd Baseman that had ever lived. While his statistics aren't as sexy as some anybody regarded as the "greatest" at any position during their career (or in his case history up to that point) doesn't really have any place on an overrrated list.

-Rhett

[CMIZ5290]

How about rabbit maranville? Life time batting average of .256!

[D. Bergin]

Regarding the Ozzie vs. Maz debate.

We are still comparing a SS to a 2nd Baseman.

As far as fielding and getting to balls/range. Ozzie played on artificial turf for a large portion of his career. Maz played on grass.

[tedzan]

To quote Tina Turner...." What does hits (love) have to do with it ? "

We were told that Maz & Oz were elected to the HOF because of their great "defensive play".

Marty Marion's defensive stats and performance were equivalent to Maz and Oz. And, Marion
contributed enormously to the success of the St Louis Cardinals during their great years from
1942 to 1949.


TED Z

[Rob D.]

I saw Mark Belanger make some great defensive plays (on TV and in person), and he was a key defensive cog at shortstop on a string of really good Orioles team. Plus, he was a good baseball man. Better save a place for him.

[Robextend]

Ozzie Smith still had almost 2,500 hits and over 1,250 runs scored and 580 stolen bases. I mean even if you argue longevity, you have to hit a little bit to get in the HOF these days.

Mazeroski also had 2,000 hits and 138 HRs

Marion only had 1,448 hits and 36 HRs with a 323 OBP. He might have been a very good player and instrumental to his teams success, but not a HOFer at all by any standards.

[tbob]

Pete Reiser and Tony Oliva are the two "what could have been" players who would easily have been in the HOF except for injuries. Both great players, both acclaimed by their contemporaries as stars, yet both star-crossed.

[tbob]

If old Casey hadn't blown a gasket in 1960 and had started Whitey Ford in Game 1, we wouldn't even be takling about Maz' Game 7. As great a manager as the Old Perfessor was, this was the strangest and stupidest move he ever made. Ford goes in Game 7 and the Yanks are world champs and Maz is recognized as a very good defensive player but never gets a sniff of the HOF. This was why Stengel was fired and Ralph Houk hired as manager of the Yankees in 1961.

[RGold]

Who's that pipsqueak next to Marty Marion?

From my Cardinal wire photo collection.

[tedzan]

Hey guys......Miller Huggins has only 1474 hits and a BA comparable to Marty Marion's BA.

Also, there are other HOFer's that have less than 2000 hits.....Huggins instantly came to mind.
Of course Huggins is in for other reasons.

So, I repeat Tina Turner's......" What does hits have to do with it ? "

Recall, the HOF said that Maz and Oz were inducted due to their defensive play (not their HITS).
I was there at the ceremonies and well remember this statement.


TED Z