Got burnt today

[clutch]

I buy things from a local online auction. They sell everything from repossessed vehicles to household items. They also sell tons of sportscards and memorabilia. This place is a breeding ground for fake signatures and counterfeit cards.

They have had so many complaints from buyers that they keep adding disclaimers to their descriptions. Now on every single sports related item, they put: Believed to be Not Authentic, Please Bid At Your Own Risk and Rely On Your Own Inspection and Judgement.

My first thought was that if they believe it to not be authentic then they shouldn't be selling it. I bought a PSA/DNA Barry Sanders autographed 8x10. When I picked it up, I found that it was a photocopy of a Barry Sanders PSA/DNA autographed photo. It was just a piece of paper in a frame.

I brought it to the manager and he just kept repeating the disclaimer in the title. He told me that they are not in the business of authenticating. He refused to give me my money back. I wasn't really looking to get my money back. I was mostly trying to bring this to their attention so they might flag the seller and maybe do some investigating. The only thing he wanted was me out of his office.

Even though there is a lot of junk, there are also some fantastic items that pass through there. I knew I was playing with fire, but figured if I kept myself educated then I would be less likely to get burned. For the most part, I have been successful. I have pulled some real gems out of that place.

I wasn't able to inspect the items this week and only bid on the Sanders because it was authenticated and looked good online. I never in a billion years would have thought it would be a computer print out.

I guess I have a few questions here.

I knew this place was bad news and kept coming back so I don't deny any responsibility. I'm wondering though. Can a place knowingly sell counterfeit items and legally hide behind a disclaimer and claim ignorance with no penalty?

Is there any branch of law enforcement that would even care enough to investigate these matters and what branch would that even be?

If you are selling this stuff and you know it is heavy in fakes (he told me he knew this and that is why they put in the disclaimer) then don't you have a responsibility to clean up that category rather than just putting in a disclaimer to cover your own butt?

I've made a lot of money buying and reselling things from that place. I only sell legit items, but does buying from them at all make me part of the problem? I'm thinking now that it probably does.

Are they just an innocent middle man and it is the buyer's responsibility to know what they are buying?

Should you require your buyers to inspect items in person to see if they are real, when it is not an onsite auction. If you are going to sell this stuff, shouldn't you employ someone that has some knowledge in this area. Some of this stuff looks good online, but when you see it in person, anyone with any knowledge of these items can see that they are no good. You could then stomp out any problems right at the door and not let them in.

Using the urine analogy of Mr. Stinson, I would go the opposite and say that this place is a bucket of pee with some sprinkles of Aquafina and I just took a big gulp. It is salty and I don't want to drink it anymore.

I'm not even upset about my item. I'm upset that management treated me like I was the criminal. I now know that I could sign a bunch of stuff at home and sell it there for boatloads of cash. Not only would they not do anything about it, they would actually protect me and make the buyer feel like the crook.

I'm not crying or looking for sympathy. I bought an item without looking at it in person first. My bad, my fault, I get that. I'm just curious what some people think and if there is anything one simple dude can do to keep other people from giving their hard earned money to crooks.

Sorry for the length of the post.

[Deertick]

I have been screamed at. I have been threatened physically, and with lawsuits. I have been escorted from the premises. I have been email bombed. Usually these are the ignorant, not criminal. AND (mostly) they severely curtail, if not completely stop, the crap.

I also have had responsible auction owners and auctioneers listen to what I had to say and remove the items and return them. And never accept them again. These are the ethical and moral people.

Then there are the auctions who will give lip service and just keep on truckin'. They will wink and nod as they describe the item. They will say "Buyer beware, but have you seen what a Ted Williams goes for on eBay?"
They are criminals who facilitate other criminals activities. They are adept at the legal tightrope, careful not to break the law themselves, at least without evidence of it. Until we can get someone in law enforcement to listen, they will continue to accept stolen items, counterfeits, and forgeries. And I will stay on their ass, sometimes loudly, most times quietly gathering info for when I meet the LEO whose job it is to care.

And I do not purchase anything from the criminals. To do so is to support their business model. I will attend, take photos and give my opinion to anyone who asks. My only problem is time. If you are at any auction within 40 miles of my house, I've got a bead on the forgeries. Currently there is one that falls into the 'criminal' category.

Contact your sheriff. They may be helpful. I have heard of such a thing, just not around here. If I understand correctly, you bid online? That may allow you to use the IC3. Also, file a complaint with your state licensing board.

[chaddurbin]

to the op,

you know the answers to the all questions you're asking. you know the place is bad, but you willingly eat up the crap because it's made you money. now for the first time you've caught a whiff of it you suddenly lost the taste? you play in dirt, you're gonna get dirty. suck it up and get back in there, or don't. all part of the game.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

to the op,

you know the answers to the all questions you're asking. you know the place is bad, but you willingly eat up the crap because it's made you money. now for the first time you've caught a whiff of it you suddenly lost the taste? you play in dirt, you're gonna get dirty. suck it up and get back in there, or don't. all part of the game.

I would tend to agree. Just look at this as a life lesson learned and move on...

[Wymers Auction]

I feel you are part of the problem whether you are buying good or bad. You are aware that they are crooked and you frequent their sales. I agree with the other post that you know all of the answers to your questions. If it makes you uncomfortable and you have to ask if it is right to bid or not you guessed it that is because it is wrong. Auctioneers that sell these items on a regular basis have heard from many that they are passing fakes and common sense tells them that consignors with endless supplies of Mantle, Ruth, Cobb, Dimaggio, and Williams are suspect at best. If they are operating with an auctioneers license please contact the licensing agency for their state. If they are merely an online auction company with no auctioneers license contact the local police and start there. I do not feel you are very sincere about turning them in though. These auction houses that routinely sell these items are aware they are fake and do not care. I have went through many of the same experiences as Jim has with trying to point auction houses in the right direction with many of the same results. We have however made a few reconsider what they are doing that were honest and even were partly instrumental in an online platform adopting policies for these items. Oh, and about the "Gems" they sell cheaply because others have chosen to do the right thing. Take it or leave it, it is only advice.

[steve B]

Any of the lawyers would know better, but I don't think the disclaimer would protect them from having sold something as obvious as a photocopy.

Ski areas have paragraphs of disclaimers on the lift ticket and still get sued when they're really negligent. That's why most of them close trails with even slightly poor conditions. The days of skiing a trail with patches of bare grass every 20 yards are long gone. In practice, the disclaimers only apply when you're doing something really dumb. (like skiing on a trail with little snow cover and jumping the grass patches Didn't have an accident, but easily could have)

I'd think that selling something under a disclaimer that even someone not intot he hobby could tell wasn't right would be counted as some sort of negligence. Proving it was deliberate rather than incompetence might be difficult. I'd still contact local law enforcement especially if they have a fraud dept. If the overall dollar value is large, that might interest them so be sure to mention the number of fakes rather than just the one item.

Steve B

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

I feel you are part of the problem whether you are buying good or bad. You are aware that they are crooked and you frequent their sales.

++++++++

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

to the op,

you know the answers to the all questions you're asking. you know the place is bad, but you willingly eat up the crap because it's made you money. now for the first time you've caught a whiff of it you suddenly lost the taste? you play in dirt, you're gonna get dirty. suck it up and get back in there, or don't. all part of the game.

Ditto. Well written, Chad.

[sdkammeyer]

Originally Posted by clutch

Now on every single sports related item, they put: Believed to be Not Authentic, Please Bid At Your Own Risk and Rely On Your Own Inspection and Judgement.

I have placed bids at the same auction before. Only once have I made a purchase. I think they have 2 facilities/locations now so we may or may not be bidding against each other.

Anyways, it's not "local" for me .... it's a 3 hour drive, but a friend of mine bought a new gas furnace from them and asked me if I wanted to ride along with him to pick it up. So I hopped on the website real quick and figured since I'm going there anyways, I might as well win a card auction and see what it's all about. When we went to pick up our items they took us back into their huge warehouse. While they were loading his furnace I opened a couple of the other baseball card boxes and found what I was looking for.

Sold on the same day there was a box that showed a T205 Cobb along with some 1990's inserts, and that threw me off right away. Just a bit too odd. The auction description advertised cards from 1909-1999. That Cobb was a reprint.

So I asked to talk to someone about their listings. After rifling through my cards real quick I was fairly pleased, but now I knew they were selling reprints and not advertising it as such.

I spoke with a "manager" named Linda. When asked "why would you advertise your cards as "Believed to be Not Authentic" instead of "authenticity unknown"?" She replied that it's a legal disclaimer from the company's attorney office that must be put into the auction titles and then acted repulsed that I would ask such a Question. I left it at that.

I haven't purchased anything else from them but I still log in every Thursday to see what they have going on.

If you are close to the facility you have the ability to go in pre-auction and view the lots ..... some of us do not have that luxury and I think it's sick that they are selling reprints and advertising them the way they do.

[Wymers Auction]

I can tell you from experience that "believed to not be authentic" is not a normal disclaimer as I have never experienced this on any auction contract. That is a crooked way to do business pure and simple. Let me ask another question if you believe they sell fake autos then why would they not also sell fake pottery, art, marbles, and anything else? They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

I can tell you from experience that "believed to not be authentic" is not a normal disclaimer as I have never experienced this on any auction contract. That is a crooked way to do business pure and simple. Let me ask another question if you believe they sell fake autos then why would they not also sell fake pottery, art, marbles, and anything else? They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

Bingo ! a glass of urine with a "spalsh" of water ! Why even play that game ...use this analogy there is a restaurant where you live. They offer
1) Obnoxious waiters
2) Rude management
3) They have a sign posted outside that says "Our food is so bad we don't eat it"
4) The chef is combative and has a reputation for spitting in any dish sent back to the kitchen before he sends it back to your table
5) The menu says OUR FOOD WILL PROBABLY MAKE YOU SICK
6) The Guinness book of Worlds Records lists the establishment as the home of the WORLDS biggest cockroach

If the food was FREE would you eat there ?
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[sdkammeyer]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

Not sure if that was directed at me or not .... but to answer your question ... no. IMO they are crooked for misleading potential bidders by falsely describing the lots they have for sale. It wouldn't matter to me if it were a reprint card, a fake autograph, or a stinky bag of cat poop that was advertised as "scent free". I personally haven't dealt with that particular auction enough to safely accuse them of anything besides the cards. My friend's new furnace wasn't fake. As a matter of fact, he brought it home, hooked it up the same day, and is very pleased with his purchase. I am sure they have sold thousands of lots and have thousands of happy bidders, but the facts are still there, and now I know that at least 2 of us have brought to their attention the fact that they are peddling fake/reprinted sports related items.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by sdkammeyer

Not sure if that was directed at me or not .... but to answer your question ... no. IMO they are crooked for misleading potential bidders by falsely describing the lots they have for sale. It wouldn't matter to me if it were a reprint card, a fake autograph, or a stinky bag of cat poop that was advertised as "scent free". I personally haven't dealt with that particular auction enough to safely accuse them of anything besides the cards. My friend's new furnace wasn't fake. As a matter of fact, he brought it home, hooked it up the same day, and is very pleased with his purchase. I am sure they have sold thousands of lots and have thousands of happy bidders, but the facts are still there, and now I know that at least 2 of us have brought to their attention the fact that they are peddling fake/reprinted sports related items.

Steve not really directing this at you specifically. The facts were that you saw a reprint listed as an original and the original post stated that they sold many fakes. Therefore I concluded that they run a crooked business as the original post talks like they have a history of selling those items. I do not believe that any auction house sells fakes over and over and still does not know there is a problem. There are way too many bidders out there that are knowledgeable enough to identify these items and will be sure to let you know.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Steve not really directing this at you specifically. The facts were that you saw a reprint listed as an original and the original post stated that they sold many fakes. Therefore I concluded that they run a crooked business as the original post talks like they have a history of selling those items. I do not believe that any auction house sells fakes over and over and still does not know there is a problem. There are way too many bidders out there that are knowledgeable enough to identify these items and will be sure to let you know.

More importantly, as you pointed out earlier James, NOBODY puts a disclaimer like that on every listing without knowing there is a problem. That's ridiculous, and assures that you will ONLY have fraudulent material consigned in the future, as nobody with legit material will subject it to that kind of selling environment unless they are just completely unaware (as in, grandpa's estate had a lot of antiques and happened to include a few sports-related items that came along in the truck to the auction house drop-off).

[Paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

I can tell you from experience that "believed to not be authentic" is not a normal disclaimer as I have never experienced this on any auction contract. That is a crooked way to do business pure and simple. Let me ask another question if you believe they sell fake autos then why would they not also sell fake pottery, art, marbles, and anything else? They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

In reality, I don't believe any disclaimer can be defined as normal.
A disclaimer is a statement and has one purpose. A refusal to accept responsibility of legal liability .

I would be very interested in looking at one of there Consignor Contracts. All reliable, or respectable Auction Contracts should include the following listed in the contract.
I certify that I am the legal owner of any goods, merchandise and/or property consigned & have good title & the right to sell them. I guarantee that I have not misrepresented any item(s) consigned or commissioned including items listed above. I agree to return any & all money(s) received for items I have misrepresented, even if unknowingly, IMMEDIATELY, if requested to do so. I understand that I will be held legally responsible if I misrepresent item(s) consigned, even unknowingly.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Paulanthony

In reality, I don't believe any disclaimer can be defined as normal.
A disclaimer is a statement and has one purpose. A refusal to accept responsibility of legal liability.

You want to talk about disclaimers... what do you guys think about this one?



"Ticket holders acknowledge and agree that the Yankees' ban on foul/abusive language and obscene/indecent clothing does not violate their right to free speech . . . In addition, ticket holders further acknowledge and agree that by entering Yankee Stadium, they . . . waive, to the fullest extent that they may legally and effectively do so, any objection they may now or hereafter have to such ban and the penalties that the Yankees may impose for any violation of the same."

I have no objection to the Yankees' desire to forbid foul or abusive language and obscene or indecent clothing at their games... but I do object to their making it into a free speech issue. What's wrong with just saying that foul language and obscene clothing will not be tolerated, and leave it at that?

Why do they have to make it a free speech issue?

(Scan from Yankees Magazine, an official publication of the New York Yankees.)

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

You want to talk about disclaimers... what do you guys think about this one?



"Ticket holders acknowledge and agree that the Yankees' ban on foul/abusive language and obscene/indecent clothing does not violate their right to free speech . . . In addition, ticket holders further acknowledge and agree that by entering Yankee Stadium, they . . . waive, to the fullest extent that they may legally and effectively do so, any objection they may now or hereafter have to such ban and the penalties that the Yankees may impose for any violation of the same."

I have no objection to the Yankees' desire to forbid foul or abusive language and obscene or indecent clothing at their games... but I do object to their making it into a free speech issue. What's wrong with just saying that foul language and obscene clothing will not be tolerated, and leave it at that?

Why do they have to make it a free speech issue?

(Scan from Yankees Magazine, an official publication of the New York Yankees.)

Because the bulk of the country is uneducated, and New Yorkers are predisposed to argue. So they figured "Why not take the first idiotic argument out of the equation?"

[Paulanthony]

They have had so many complaints from buyers that they keep adding disclaimers to their descriptions. Now on every single sports related item, they put: Believed to be Not Authentic, Please Bid At Your Own Risk and Rely On Your Own Inspection and Judgment

It appears the auction house needs a disclaimer for the disclaimers.

My first thought was that if they believe it to not be authentic then they shouldn't be selling it. I bought a PSA/DNA Barry Sanders autographed 8x10. When I picked it up, I found that it was a photocopy of a Barry Sanders PSA/DNA autographed photo. It was just a piece of paper in a frame.

The Sanders 8x10 auto displayed a PSA/DNA sticker. The auction description failed to mention it was a copy. A disclaimer no matter how it's written can never justify misstatements and partial statements that are misleading, because they do not disclose something the consumer should know. This type of deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions. Deception is a representation, or omission that may mislead the public. Whether the representation or omission is deceptive is based on what a reasonable consumer would infer from the information provided. An omission of not informing the buyer what to expect and the lack of having said anything may be considered Misrepresentation, false methods advertising. Federal Trade Commission. FTC POLICY STATEMENT ON DECEPTION covers just about everything I have written.

If you have fallen victim of this type of deception and you have used one of the major credit cards to pay for the item you should contact them and request a charge back. All major credit cards have a Code which covers items not described. I use Visa, there code for items not described is Code 53. Not as Described or Defective Merchandise. Relating this information to the auction has a potential for ending any dispute in the favor of the card holder.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, the information is a written opinion and is not legal advice

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Paulanthony

It appears the auction house needs a disclaimer for the disclaimers.



The Sanders 8x10 auto displayed a PSA/DNA sticker. The auction description failed to mention it was a copy. A disclaimer no matter how it's written can never justify misstatements and partial statements that are misleading, because they do not disclose something the consumer should know. This type of deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions. Deception is a representation, or omission that may mislead the public. Whether the representation or omission is deceptive is based on what a reasonable consumer would infer from the information provided. An omission of not informing the buyer what to expect and the lack of having said anything may be considered Misrepresentation, false methods advertising. Federal Trade Commission. FTC POLICY STATEMENT ON DECEPTION covers just about everything I have written.

If you have fallen victim of this type of deception and you have used one of the major credit cards to pay for the item you should contact them and request a charge back. All major credit cards have a Code which covers items not described. I use Visa, there code for items not described is Code 53. Not as Described or Defective Merchandise. Relating this information to the auction has a potential for ending any dispute in the favor of the card holder.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, the information is a written opinion and is not legal advice

I believe the code for getting stuck with a bad autograph is OU812