Should we maintain a list of suspicious buyers and sellers?

[the 'stache]

I stumbled across a blog last night called "For the Love of Cards", and under the links section, one of the destinations was listed as "t206museum.com is a fraud". I found this surprising, as the few times I had visited the site, it appeared on the surface to be quite helpful. Naturally my curiosity was piqued, so I Googled the site name to see what discussions might have occurred on our forum. Without going into great detail, as longtime members of Net54 already know this, the owner of the site was exposed trying to sell previously undiscovered variations of T206 Old Mill backs that he himself completely fabricated. The sordid details can be found in a discussion I bumped last night, if anybody is interested.

I am not creating this discussion and poll to rehash the past, however. This is merely an example of a site that has been associated with criminal behavior. What I am proposing here is that we as a group become more proactive in documenting the names, user ids and websites of those unscrupulous persons who infect our hobby. I believe that knowledge is power, and collectively, we already make a difference by exposing unethical people within the hobby. A list simply makes these names more easily accessible.

One area I would like to address is Ebay, as I have seen several discussions lamenting the insufficiency of their feedback system. Since it is impossible to leave negative feedback on a buyer, honest sellers are precariously placed in harm's way. Unless a seller delves deeply into the comments left for previous transactions, they cannot know if the person they are shipping to is trustworthy. A searchable list of problematic buyers, with a link to any discussion providing supporting documentation, would represent a big step forward. The user ids of buyers with excessive retractions, and a history of shill bidding, should be included as well. As for sellers, negative feedback, though indicative of a possible problem, is simply not always accurate. A buyer can leave negative feedback without even contacting a seller, whether it is warranted or not. It would be wise for us to keep a list of sellers that do not meet the level of honesty the hobby deserves.

In the "Joseph M. Pankiewicz" discussion, Pete Ullman made a comment that has stuck with me for much of the last week:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Maybe there should be a section in the archive on this site that discusses suspect sellers/auction houses. Maybe a timeline of hobby indescretions over the last decade up to present...naming names...so users of this message board will have such info to help with future transactions?

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....174608&page=30

The responses to his post were positive, yet I have not seen this idea acted upon yet. So I am going to build upon his idea, expanding it to Ebay users, auction houses, and suspicious websites. This would serve as a caveat emptor of sorts. The ultimate decision of who would appear on the list would be made by Leon or one of the other forum admins/moderators.

So, I ask you, my fellow friends and hobby enthusiasts, if you feel this list would be beneficial?

[Mark]

I would expect more drama than information as the anger and libel flow along.

[the 'stache]

I could see that being a problem, Mark, but the list would basically be comprised of names that have already appeared in discussions. Just a quick reference of sorts.

[quinnsryche]

I think that's an excellent idea although who would have the final say as to which people make the list? Many people come on here to bitch about stuff and we only find out later the original poster is the problem. It would be rather difficult to police such things as there are always 2 sides to a story (and sometimes more it seems).
Rather interested to see the outcome of the poll.
Always enjoy your posts 'stache. Well thought out and well written.
Best,
Tony

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Mark

I would expect more drama than information as the anger and libel flow along.

Exactly.

[cyseymour]

I could see there being a baseball card version Yelp which reviews the different dealers and auction houses/other businesses. But for anyone who is not a business, it is treading on thin ice. People don't like to have their names out on the internet and it would be possible to make false allegations against anyone. Plus, if it were a list, who would have the authority to maintain such a list and decide who's on it? That would be a pretty powerful person... too much power, if you ask me.

So I think it's a bad idea... but a review website for the dealers/auction houses might be a good one for anyone who wants to take it up. Just leave collectors out of it... I think it has to be a registered business.

[Leon]

Great discussion and very well thought out opening post. The other mods and I always want to listen to new ideas to help the board and the hobby, where the board is concerned. That being said.....
I can't imagine me ever being convinced this would be a good thing for this site due to the liability issues, the management of the sections and the drama. Those are my initial concerns.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Leon

Great discussion and very well thought out opening post. The other mods and I always want to listen to new ideas to help the board and the hobby, where the board is concerned. That being said.....
I can't imagine me ever being convinced this would be a good thing for this site due to the liability issues, the management of the sections and the drama. Those are my initial concerns.

Leon,
Good post I to think some kind of list would help out as so many new members come on daily. But as we know where the fish swim the sharks are soon to follow. I think for now you sum it up well with what is written at the top of the B/S/T CAVEAT EMPTOR

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Exactly.

+ 3

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Mark

I would expect more drama than information as the anger and libel flow along.

The drama seems to be garnering the most attention as of late. And you're right that libel will follow suit. The simple solution , to me, is if you do not like how someone does business don't deal with them. That does not mean others have had the same experience.

[D.P.Johnson]

This type of forum could work with some rules such as:

1: Check with a STAFF member before posting any new threads about who might be a suspicious buyer/seller.

2: Make sure you can provide some type of PROOF.

3: If you don't follow rule #1, your account will be suspended for 30 days.

[Bestdj777]

In theory I think a list would be a great idea. In practice, maybe not so much. From what I've seen, Leon bans anyone problematic from the BST part of the forum, which prevents any need for a list there. And, on eBay, you can change your account name or open new accounts. So, identifying someone by name or email handle would not be a permanent means of alerting people to the problem.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

The drama seems to be garnering the most attention as of late. And you're right that libel will follow suit. The simple solution , to me, is if you do not like how someone does business don't deal with them. That does not mean others have had the same experience.

Lou, I understand your thoughts, as well as those expressed by Leon and other members. And I respect your position. But I don't think it would create any additional liability, or rancor. Remember, the list would be comprised of people that are already being discussed on the forum. If a forum member starts a topic on an Ebay buyer named John Q. Public because they backed out of a buy it now commitment, the specifics of what happened should be presented within the thread. Say Mr. Public bought a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth, and the next day our forum member a message that he has changed his mind, and doesn't want the card. The forum member would document this here, and open an unpaid item case. A message would then be sent to Leon, or another forum admin or moderator with the link to the discussion. If approved for inclusion on the list, Mr. Public's name and Ebay user ID would be added to the list. Since everything has been presented factually, there can be no libel accusation. No further comment would be made as the the Ebay buyer on the list. Just the facts. They would simply be listed for reference as a non payer on one auction. With their name and user id now in the searchable database, anybody on Net54 could check and see this user has at least this one time been problematic. If they choose to block the buyer, all future problems with said buyer have been averted.

Of course it is not a perfect solution, but the list would serve as a preemptive strike of sorts.

[RCMcKenzie]

I think it makes more sense to point out some dealers that someone new to the hobby can be comfortable buying from, like the list on http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/ebay...ay-sellers.asp

Even a positive list like that could make some folks upset that they are not on it.

After a while, collectors can make up their own minds about what to buy and where.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I think it makes more sense to point out some dealers that someone new to the hobby can be comfortable buying from, like the list on http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/ebay...ay-sellers.asp

Even a positive list like that could make some folks upset that they are not on it.

After a while, collectors can make up their own minds about what to buy and where.

That is a different, and viable approach. But you're right, RC, invariably, somebody is going to be left off, and feel slighted.

I don't know, guys and gals. I'm looking for something that we can do to make the hobby a little safer for everybody here. Maybe this isn't the best answer. Or, perhaps some variation of this idea will work if we focus on the positive instead of the negative. There's certainly no legal ramifications if a seller is left off a positive list.

I am reminded of Doug Goodman's response to my point about the apathy of the major players in the hobby (the tpgs, card manufacturers, Ebay, auction houses, etc)

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

It's the honest hobbyists who need to change their ways. The major players who you speak of have no reason to change, because to them the "hobby" matters less than their bottom line.

There's just got to be more that we can do. And I believe we can affect changes. Ultimately we are the ones that wield the power. It is our discretionary income that makes it possible for these large players to rest on their laurels.

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Lou, I understand your thoughts, as well as those expressed by Leon and other members. And I respect your position. But I don't think it would create any additional liability, or rancor. Remember, the list would be comprised of people that are already being discussed on the forum. If a forum member starts a topic on an Ebay buyer named John Q. Public because they backed out of a buy it now commitment, the specifics of what happened should be presented within the thread. Say Mr. Public bought a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth, and the next day our forum member a message that he has changed his mind, and doesn't want the card. The forum member would document this here, and open an unpaid item case. A message would then be sent to Leon, or another forum admin or moderator with the link to the discussion. If approved for inclusion on the list, Mr. Public's name and Ebay user ID would be added to the list. Since everything has been presented factually, there can be no libel accusation. No further comment would be made as the the Ebay buyer on the list. Just the facts. They would simply be listed for reference as a non payer on one auction. With their name and user id now in the searchable database, anybody on Net54 could check and see this user has at least this one time been problematic. If they choose to block the buyer, all future problems with said buyer have been averted.

Of course it is not a perfect solution, but the list would serve as a preemptive strike of sorts.

Uh...seriously? I have been an eBay seller for about 14 years now. People back out of transactions, never pay and send rude and even threatening messages. A couple of times people have claimed to have never received cards when I knew for a fact they had. Ask anyone who runs even a small operation - it's all part of the cost of doing business. You open your unpaid item case, block bidder, recoup your fees, relist and move on.

Is it frustrating and annoying? Absolutely. Is it worth making a federal case out of it and creating a public thread to malign someone over $50? No. The truth is you don't know what the other person's situation is or what is going on in their life. I think the Adrian threads were a pretty good example of this, even though some of his dealings were definitely questionable.

Plus I am sure Leon and other mods have better things to do than babysit hundreds of he-said/she-said discussions all day long over minor spoiled ebay transactions.

Now if it's a big scam, at an institutional level (i.e. auction house/grading companies) or affecting hundreds of buyers, by all means out the scam. That's where this board really rocks.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Uh...seriously? I have been an eBay seller for about 14 years now. People back out of transactions, never pay and send rude and even threatening messages. A couple of times people have claimed to have never received cards when I knew for a fact they had. Ask anyone who runs even a small operation - it's all part of the cost of doing business. You open your unpaid item case, block bidder, recoup your fees, relist and move on.

Is it frustrating and annoying? Absolutely. Is it worth making a federal case out of it and creating a public thread to malign someone over $50? No. The truth is you don't know what the other person's situation is or what is going on in their life. I think the Adrian threads were a pretty good example of this, even though some of his dealings were definitely questionable.

Plus I am sure Leon and other mods have better things to do than babysit hundreds of he-said/she-said discussions all day long over minor spoiled ebay transactions.

Now if it's a big scam, at an institutional level (i.e. auction house/grading companies) or affecting hundreds of buyers, by all means out the scam. That's where this board really rocks.

I agree with Rob 100%

[Eric72]

To answer the question posed by the OP...for those deemed suspicious, no. Such a list would be detrimental to quite a few honest sellers.

As it pertains to those who are confirmed fraudsters, please feel free to start a thread, Bill. Just be careful to get your ducks in a row before doing so.

Best Regards,

Eric