T206 Detective Work

[The Nasty Nati]

I was eyeing this on ebay and forgot and failed to bid on it, but somebody picked up a pretty nice front miscut with a sliver of a different player on the front.

Can anybody identify the other player?

Better scan in the ebay link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Joe-Doy...vip=true&rt=nc

[sreader3]

My gut reaction was Willetts but I think I'm going to go with Reulbach (No Glove).

[The Nasty Nati]

I think you're right about the Reulbach. I see what may be a hint of his sleeve.

Does this possible discovery bring any new light on the T206 sheet layouts?

[atx840]

I had Reulbach as well, which interesting enough is next to Konetchy. These three are part of a small subset of 34 cards that we see grouped across many 460 series backs and compose the yellow brown scraps & the BL460s brand.

[mrvster]

rare as chris will elaborate...............GREAT PICK UP!

[mrvster]

btw....WOW

HOLY CRAP!

the broadleaf 460 and sc 460 no overprint yellow brown scraps correlation.....OMG!

I looked at your collage and it made perfect sense


DUDE! you figured something out huge

let's see who else realizes it

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by atx840

I had Reulbach as well, which interesting enough is next to Konetchy. These three are part of a small subset of 34 cards that we see grouped across many 460 series backs and compose the yellow brown scraps & the BL460s brand.

Chris, Neat card and info. That "34" number shows up a lot (e.g., 34 SLers with Brown Hindu; 34 major leaguers with SC 150/649, etc.). Thanks for sharing. Scot

[sreader3]

Hi Chris,

Below is the confirmed list of 37 for AB350 No Frame. Besides Nichols (Batting), can you advise which two aren't part of the grouping of 34 that includes Doyle-Reulbach-Konetchy?

Thanks!

Scot

Baker, Frank
Bender, Chief (No Trees)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
Downey, Tom (Batting)
Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
Griffith, Clark (Batting)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Murphy, Danny (Batting)
Nichols, Simon (Batting)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Street, Gabby (Catching)
Sweeney, Jeff
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
Wilhelm, Kaiser (With Bat)
Willetts, Ed
Willis, Vic (Batting)
Wiltse, Hooks (Pitching)

[atx840]

You are correct Chase is the 34th card. One 34 card sheet had Dougherty and switched to a 34 card sheet with Ames. This one y/b sheet had Ames and was scrapped before the 42 OP was added. There are multiple 34 card sheets to make the SC series. The other 28 were likely also printed with the 6 super prints making a second 34 sheet but unfortunately no scrapped sheet had been found.

We see 2 groups of 28 throughout the 460 series that combined with the 6 super prints and your 2x6 Exclusives that create 34 card sheets. There is also a 21 card group and a 13 card group that combine to 34. The only reason they are split oddly is the P42s do not contain the 21 card group.

If a y/b Dougherty showed up that would change things for sure, either a before Ames and after Ames sheets were scrapped or I'm way off.

[tedzan]

The bigger picture is....if you do an analysis of the POP report data (SGC + PSA) you'll find that the numbers for Ames and Dougherty are essentially
equal to each other as a function of CYCLE 460, EPDG, LENOX, OM, PB, SOVEREIGN, TOLSTOI backs.

And then, if you compare these numbers with the POP report data (SGC + PSA) of the other 28 subjects (minus the 6 super-prints) in this lot of your
34 scraps, you'll see that there isn't much difference.

The point I'm making here is that I don't see in these numbers any hint of "subject swapping" between Ames and Dougherty. In my book, there were
35 subjects (including Dougherty). This fact is indeed confirmed by the 350/460 series of 35 subjects which were printed with SWEET CAPORAL 460-
Factory 42 backs.

Furthermore, I'd be somewhat more receptive to your "subject swapping" idea, if these 2 guys had been traded or retired during the printing timeline
of these cards. But, Red Ames pitched for the NY Giants from 1903-1913. Patsy Dougherty played with the Chicago White Sox from 1906 till the end
of 1911.

Hey ole buddy......my theory is these 35 subjects with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 backs were printed simultaneously with the red HINDU backs.
Therefore, I will bet you that a red HINDU Ames will eventually be discovered.

Would like you like to get into this game ?


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Well, two things for sure gentlemen:

We'll all be on the lookout for Ames AB 460 and Red Hindu.

[atx840]

Progress!

The 4&5 groups should be one large 34 group and on all but the P42s we find those 34 cards always together. Oddly the P42s don't have any from the 21 group so I've had to divide it up.

I think the 6 super prints and your 12 were combined with any 28 group to make 34. Also all 12 could have been subbed in for others in the 28 group. It's also possible entire columns were the Exclusive 12s combined.

The pop report would help determine which are less frequent.


Erick your breakdown is very similar to what I've been working on. Keep breaking down the subsets into the smallest common denominator of groups. I've limited it to series as its pretty messy for the entire set.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by atx840

Progress!
Why are the P42s missing the group of 21, how do we get a significant more Exclusive 12s in AB460, SOV460s & RH, did a group of 28+Exclusives get mixed in when printing the UZITS. This is what keeps me up at night .

Based solely on observation while attempting to put together the Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 42 subset (only need two), you can include SC460-42 in the group where there are signicantly more E12s.

[tedzan]

Hey good buddy, I'm still confused....are you saying that the Exclusive 12 were printed on the same sheet as the other 34 (or 35) subjects ?
If so, I have a serious difference with you.

The following is my theoretical timeline (based on American Litho. ledger notes) for the Exclusive 12 subjects printed on a sheet exclusively
of their own with......

Late 1910-Jan 1911

SC 460/42
Red HINDU

Jan-Feb 1911

AB 460
UZIT

Mar 1911

NOT PRINTED with LENOX, or PIEDMONT 460/42 (as other T206's were)



Exclusive 12 subjects with SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory 42 backs......






.



TED Z
.

[Drew]

Thanks
Great Info
drew