Where has all the 19th century baseball memorabilia gone?

[GaryPassamonte]

It seems that nice 19th century baseball memorabilia has dried up. What do you think? Is the good stuff locked up in collections and staying there for the long term?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

It seems that nice 19th century baseball memorabilia has dried up. What do you think? Is the good stuff locked up in collections and staying there for the long term?

"Gone to collections, every one," to paraphrase Pete Seeger's famous "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Every once in a while I think of all the rare and unusual items in my niche of the hobby--WaJo and the Washington Senators/Nationals--of which I've seen an example or two or three many years ago and then never again. Of course, decades had to pass before I realized just how scarce those things were. Just one example of many: the first two Washington yearbooks, from 1949 and 1950. I've handled a number of those in my time as a dealer, but it's been 10 or 15 years now since I've seen either of them. Shows, auctions, eBay, etc., nada, all now comfortably residing in collections, I suppose, and until their owners pass away or have another reason to put their stuff back onto the market, there won't be any for a good while. I'm happy to have picked up some cool and rare stuff in the old days, but I do wish I hadn't been so cavalier in passing on things that I figured I could always get the next time around if I wanted to, because in many instances that time just never came around again. It's the old collector's lesson: when you see something you like at a reasonable price, go ahead and pick it up!

[perezfan]

Yup.... it's staggering how all the good 19th century stuff has fallen off the face of the earth. I guess we had a false sense of it being somewhat plentiful back in the early 2000s. I can easily recall when the REA, Mastro, Lelands and Hunt Catalogs would routinely devote a dozen full pages to 19th century memorabilia. Now you get perhaps 4-5 lots per auction.

Makes me sorry I didn't pursue some pieces harder, but more so am very thankful I was able to secure a few great things that are not resurfacing.

[ooo-ribay]

Hank and Mark would know better than I, since I don’t collect 19th century, but it stands to reason an already scarce group of stuff has found its way into permanent collections. That is, until the owners die. None of us are getting any younger. I have no real plan for my collection. I’ve tossed some ideas around with fellow Giants collectors but we’re all kind of the same age. I don’t worry too much about it….it’s been a fun hobby, if nothing else.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Hank and Mark would know better than I, since I don’t collect 19th century, but it stands to reason an already scarce group of stuff has found its way into permanent collections. That is, until the owners die. None of us are getting any younger. I have no real plan for my collection. I’ve tossed some ideas around with fellow Giants collectors but we’re all kind of the same age. I don’t worry too much about it….it’s been a fun hobby, if nothing else.

And it's not just 19th century at all, of course. Many of the early Washington pennants that you guys have come up with are the only examples I've ever seen and probably ever will see, and of the others where there have been duplicates it's been on the order of two or maybe three but rarely any more than that. I guess it's understandable in that they are so old and fragile, but it illustrates how few of these things have actually survived for us to collect today.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

"Gone to collections, every one," to paraphrase Pete Seeger's famous "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Every once in a while I think of all the rare and unusual items in my niche of the hobby--WaJo and the Washington Senators/Nationals--of which I've seen an example or two or three many years ago and then never again. Of course, decades had to pass before I realized just how scarce those things were. Just one example of many: the first two Washington yearbooks, from 1949 and 1950. I've handled a number of those in my time as a dealer, but it's been 10 or 15 years now since I've seen either of them. Shows, auctions, eBay, etc., nada, all now comfortably residing in collections, I suppose, and until their owners pass away or have another reason to put their stuff back onto the market, there won't be any for a good while. I'm happy to have picked up some cool and rare stuff in the old days, but I do wish I hadn't been so cavalier in passing on things that I figured I could always get the next time around if I wanted to, because in many instances that time just never came around again. It's the old collector's lesson: when you see something you like at a reasonable price, go ahead and pick it up!

Hank, to refresh your memory after 10 - 15 years, and for those who have never seen these, here are pics of the covers of my 1949 and 1950 Washington Senators yearbooks. Interestingly, there is this stampimg inside the 1949 yearbook that shows that it was once in the possession of a hobby icon.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hank, to refresh your memory after 10 - 15 years, and for those who have never seen these, here are pics of the covers of my 1949 and 1950 Washington Senators yearbooks. Interestingly, there is this stamping inside the 1949 yearbook that shows that it was once in the possession of a hobby icon.

You mean 1950, Val, not 1959. Thanks, I'm quite familiar with both of them, having handled a number of them in my time as a dealer, and have Tom Holster's wonderfully done repros to remind me. When's the last time you saw either for sale, though? Been a long time for me. As for Goldfaden, I met him at his shop in L.A. in the late 90s, as you say, a real hobby oldtimer specializing in pubs.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You mean 1950, Val, not 1959. Thanks, I'm quite familiar with both of them, having handled a number of them in my time as a dealer, and have Tom Holster's wonderfully done repros to remind me. When's the last time you saw either for sale, though? Been a long time for me. As for Goldfaden, I met him at his shop in L.A. in the late 90s, as you say, a real hobby oldtimer specializing in pubs.

Hank, thanks for catching my goof, which I have now corrected. Now that you mention it, it has been a good while since I've seen either the 1949 or 1950 yearbook for sale.

Speaking of Tom Holster, I keep Tom Holster's wonderful, 1995 soft-cover book, "Washington Senators Checklist Book Volume 1,"on the corner of my desk and refer to it often. Do you happen to know if Tom is still involved in the hobby?

[jbsports33]

Yes! the 19th century baseball memorabilia has dried up and only see it within larger auction houses or larger shows. I use to see it more often in my travels, just not the same anymore - collectors with $ or the big companies are getting their hands on it faster these days. Still looking for those W1 poker type baseball cards and just never see them. Miss seeing stuff in person, items must still be out there - just not at the local level anymore

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hank, thanks for catching my goof, which I have now corrected. Now that you mention it, it has been a good while since I've seen either the 1949 or 1950 yearbook for sale. Speaking of Tom Holster, I keep Tom Holster's wonderful, 1995 soft-cover book, "Washington Senators Checklist Book Volume 1,"on the corner of my desk and refer to it often. Do you happen to know if Tom is still involved in the hobby?

Val, I'm sad to report that Tom passed away several years ago. We were great friends, and though I didn't see him often, we spoke on the phone a lot. At some point, he decided to sell all his stuff and pull back from the hobby to devote more time to his growing family, and I think he was happier for it. We are the beneficiaries of his passion for all things Senators, though, and his checklist book represents years of work. Tom was a wonderful man and a great hobbyist while he was involved. I miss him a lot.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

"Gone to collections, every one," to paraphrase Pete Seeger's famous "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Every once in a while I think of all the rare and unusual items in my niche of the hobby--WaJo and the Washington Senators/Nationals--of which I've seen an example or two or three many years ago and then never again. Of course, decades had to pass before I realized just how scarce those things were. Just one example of many: the first two Washington yearbooks, from 1949 and 1950. I've handled a number of those in my time as a dealer, but it's been 10 or 15 years now since I've seen either of them. Shows, auctions, eBay, etc., nada, all now comfortably residing in collections, I suppose, and until their owners pass away or have another reason to put their stuff back onto the market, there won't be any for a good while. I'm happy to have picked up some cool and rare stuff in the old days, but I do wish I hadn't been so cavalier in passing on things that I figured I could always get the next time around if I wanted to, because in many instances that time just never came around again. It's the old collector's lesson: when you see something you like at a reasonable price, go ahead and pick it up!

Hank, many, many years ago, dealer Bill Rosenthal convinced me that this small (approx. 5.5" x 8.5"), 16-page, 1947 pamphlet is actually the Washington Senators first "yearbook," which resulted in my probably greatly overpaying for it. Page 4 contains a nice tribute to your grandfather, who passed a year earlier.

We've all heard the saying, "Washington is first in war, first in peace, and last in the American League." This was pretty much true in the early years of the AL. But, as the chart on Page 8 of this "yearbook" shows, Washington did NOT ONCE finish in last place in the AL from 1910 through 1943, a period of 34 years!!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hank, many, many years ago, dealer Bill Rosenthal convinced me that this small (approx. 5.5" x 8.5"), 16-page, 1947 pamphlet is actually the Washington Senators first "yearbook," which resulted in my probably greatly overpaying for it. Page 4 contains a nice tribute to your grandfather, who passed a year earlier. We've all heard the saying, "Washington is first in war, first in peace, and last in the American League." This was pretty much true in the early years of the AL. But, as the chart on Page 8 of this "yearbook" shows, Washington did NOT ONCE finish in last place in the AL from 1910 through 1943, a period of 34 years!!

Not surprising to hear the words "Rosenthal" and "overpaid" in the same sentence, Val! It's always been a matter of controversy as to whether this booklet should be counted as a yearbook, although I believe it is in most price guides. I've always thought of it as a "pre-yearbook" or a "photo book" due to its size and construction and the fact that there was a gap in '48 between this one and the start of the yearbook era in 1949. Similarly to the '49 and '50 yearbooks, I would routinely buy and sell these during my 20 years as a dealer, but now they seem to have dried up completely and I haven't seen one for sale in many years. Thanks for showing these rare Washington pieces.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Not surprising to hear the words "Rosenthal" and "overpaid" in the same sentence, Val! It's always been a matter of controversy as to whether this booklet should be counted as a yearbook, although I believe it is in most price guides. I've always thought of it as a "pre-yearbook" or a "photo book" due to its size and construction and the fact that there was a gap in '48 between this one and the start of the yearbook era in 1949. Similarly to the '49 and '50 yearbooks, I would routinely buy and sell these during my 20 years as a dealer, but now they seem to have dried up completely and I haven't seen one for sale in many years. Thanks for showing these rare Washington pieces.

Anyone else remember Rosenthal's ads in the old SCD? Never any pics or images... just one-line descriptions of each piece he was selling. Example...

"3/4 sized NY Giants pennant depicts a Willard Mullin style Giant looking sideways inside the Polo Grounds, with ball behind his back. EX+"

That's how we bought most things back in the 90s (outside of shows). There were no provided images, so we had to know our stuff and put our full trust in Dealers' descriptions.