OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

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Posted By: peter chao

Barry,

I hate to make the comparision, but it's a logical one. Why is Mr. Cho's shooting up the campus any different that the US's preemptive attack on Iraq. I don't see any logical difference.

The U.S. was protecting themselve's when they attacked first. Mr. Cho didn't want his way of life threatened so he killed those hedonistic fellow students.

Peter

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, I'm speechless at that post. Seriously speechless. All I'll say is that if you can't discern any difference between an insane murderer's mental state and our government's leaders - no matter how much you hate them - then I'm afraid you're too far gone.

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Posted By: Mike

Amen Jeff. What color is the sky in some peoples world ?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mike, and I'm a registered Democrat living in one of the most liberal cities in the United States.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

Your right sometimes I do feel I'm way out in left field, but bear with me. There are many in the world that think the U.S. is far too aggresive.

Your going to like the conclusion to this argument even less.

Mr. Cho was more noble because he sacrificed his own life.

Peter

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Posted By: Dan

Peter, your comments have come out of LEFT FIELD!!! Someone needs to put you in time out so you can gather your wits about you.

This psycho has nothing in comparison to what we are doing in this war or any other war. If there is one thing that has actually gotten more of our boys killed, is trying to protect innocent lives while fighting in the streets. In the trying to protect the innocent business, we cannot discern whom is the enemy and whom is the innocent, so they second guess the "target" which causes a soldier to have a short, but valuable pause in the time to engage which frequently and sadly turns in to them being fired upon by the presumed innocent enemy. Get a clue man!

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Posted By: Cobby33

I, too, think that's a tenuous comparison.

Perhaps what Peter is struggling with is how this society has come to accept the killing (call it murder, call it what you want) of innocent people overbroad (U.S. citiznes and other), because most have been sold on the fallacy that there is some legitmate end to the means. Personally, I think that theory defies logic and is barbaric- but that's just me (or we)...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, you might be the only person on the planet who witnessed Cho's moronic manifesto and thought 'darn, that's one noble fellow.' You might also be the only person on the planet who thinks that George Bush and Cho are eerily similar. All I will say is that I hope there are no guns in your house and if so, I'm glad I'm 3000 miles away. After all, you can't spell Chao without C H O.

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Posted By: barrysloate

There aren't too many people who dislike George Bush more than me, but even I don't think he would take a submachine gun into Congress and blow away all the Democrats.

Peter, I think your analogy is a very poor one. The war in Iraq and the incident at Va Tech are unrelated.

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Posted By: Dan

I think that too many of you and other civilians are spending too much time watching tv or reading a paper and not enough time in the desert where it is really going on. To see for yourself, not take someone elses word for it. Peter, you don't have a clue, not one clue and frankly, you make me sick.

I have been there, TWICE, we are making a difference.

Our boys are fighting for a good cause, do not ever doubt that. The people of places like Iraq lived in total fear of the regime and the women and children especially had NO rights, none at all. These people are barbarians in many ways and could simply murder for the fun of it. Look at what Sadaams son did to the Iraq National Soccer team and other Olympic athletes, he had them murdered, their families murdered, the women raped, then murdered...

Small story - one day when we first arrived in Baghdad, we found a group of small children who were waiving like crazy at us, so we went over to see what they were doing and discovered that their parents had been murdered by some local supporters of the previous regime. The children were not really sad, it was very strange, but it was almost natural to them to see such a thing. Explain that!

One of the guys in our group had a bear that his daughter sent him, he gave it to the the smallest child. The translator said that the little girl had NEVER had a dolly or bear in her life.



Us getting some rest! It is a far cry from your tv set or sofa where you safely read all the garbage that is printed about this war.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Abeer Qassim Hamza*

*Let's not forget.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Dan -- Thanks for your sacrifice for our country.

Peter -- Just when I think you can't possibly say anything more stupid or bizarre than you already have, you go ahead and floor me.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Dan

Are you kidding me? Again, for every one bad story that is out there, there are hundreds of stories of good that we are doing there. In your one statement, let's not forget, you have just completely discarded everything else.

These particular soldiers were criminal in their actions and are certainly being held accountable now:

"All five belonged to the 101st Airborne Division based at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, which is also where the hearing took place. Military investigators believe that Green and as many as four other soldiers were involved in the commission of the murders while on active duty. A criminal affidavit filed in U.S. federal court states that Green and one other participant raped Hamza and that Green killed all four individuals himself. Abeer's uncle, Ahmad, says he has "no faith" in the Court Martial, requesting that the Americans "hand the criminals to us, to an Iraqi Court. We don't trust their justice, they should be tried here in Iraq."[1]

Iraqi insurgents kidnapped two American troops whom they later killed, claiming that the killing was retaliation for Abeer's rape.[1]

Army Sgt. Paul Cortez was sentenced Thursday, February 22, 2007 to 100 years in prison for his participation in the rape and murder. Cortez, 24, also was given a dishonorable discharge. Cortez wept as he apologized for the crimes, saying he could not explain why he took part.

Specialist James Barker , 24, admitted rape and murder over the killings and was jailed for 90 years."

So, did you skip right over the part in your "reading from your computer desk, safely in your home" that Iraqi insurgents KIDNAPPED TWO AMERICAN TROOPS AND KILLED THEM????? These were two innocent soldiers that had NOTHING to do with this murder and rape situation.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- I think we can learn more about the war from you than any newspaper or television report. And while we are off topic, I am reading everything you say very carefully. Please keep the information coming, if you feel up to it. Thank you.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Dan,

Stay strong over there brother. Most people have no idea what is going on over there, they only know what they see on TV or read in a newspaper.

Chao...you can't be serious? Why don't you go back to posting about your handful of pre-war cards or another OT post about who was better than who or how you make $400 an hour but can't afford any cards. What a joke.

Can't spell Chao without Cho, now that was a good one Jeff.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dan,
Thanks again for your service and your comments as I agree whole heartedly. If you want to know what's really going on in Iraq, spend some time talking to the fine young men and women protecting our freedom. I have talked to hundreds of soldiers over the last 3 years, and to a man or woman, they support our efforts and believe we are making a huge difference. Spend a little time in any airport and you can buy them a Beer or a sandwich and thank them on a personal level. I promise you will come away feeling proud of the men and women who represent and protect the US so well. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Dan

All I want to say is that it is not a good situation all the way around and sadly enough, our soldiers whom are coming home are coming home is a similar way as our veterans of Vietnam did... forgotten. It is just not right.

We are not there because we desire to be there, it is our mission to be there and as military life goes, we go where they tell us to go. All we ask in the process is that our American breathren get behind us and support what we are doing no matter what the cause is if that is where our Government wants us to be.

That being said, we as citizens always have the right to question our Government and that is one of the things that makes our Country so wonderful. But by all means, don't just sit and complain, do something about it. If any of you do not like our boys being over there, make your voices heard and do something about it. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!

I personally love this Country and am proud of what we stand for. I have traveled to places like Iraq, Djibouti Africa and the Gaza Strip and until you see fear in peoples faces, you can never truly understand what I mean here. We are lucky, we are so very lucky in the US and that is why people hate us so badly. We have freedom and we can pursue happiness, it is all up to us. But, you cannot make change from the safe confines of your house, you have to go out and make a difference, you must inspire others to inspire others and so on, in order to affect change.

Remember this guy? If nothing else, we removed a tyrant from power and saved countless lives because of it.


One question you have to ask yourself in regard to whether or not there were WMD's before this last one started, how much time would it take to move that stuff to a place called Syria?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- do you feel the U.S. should have an exit strategy? The war is going on for more than four years and there is no end in sight, and by the time it is done it could cost us a trillion dollars. Is it worth all that?

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Posted By: Dan

I am not there now, thank God. I am serving in Italy and that is as close to this stuff as I want to be for a little while.

Please do not thank me folks, this is great stuff, I do appreciate it but there are certainly many others out there that deserve and warrant your thanks, there is that veteran down the street, or that old gentleman that you see occassionally, thank them.

If you want to make a difference quickly, go visit a VA hospital and speak with some of the folks down there. They need to hear from you all, they need to see that their sacrifices were worth it and that the people of our great Country stand behind them and love them as they love their Country.

Barry, when I get in to work on Monday, I will search out a fantastic story that I recently received and post it for all of you to read. It is wonderful and speaks about your question of an exit strategy and how things are looking there. It is enlightening to say the least. In short, my opinion... of course, all missions should have an exit strategy, now that is only my opinion.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think what saddens me the most about our country right now is that the Democrats and Republicans are almost willing to root against our country if it will result in harm to the other party. You can hate George Bush all you want, that doesn't mean that he is a homicidal maniac who enjoys killing children. You can hate Nancy Pelosi all you want, that doesn't mean that she wants to have Bin Laden's baby (though in fairness to Bin Laden - I'm not certain he'd be interested in that deal either). In essence, each side wants what is best for our country -- they just have different views on how to go about it. That doesn't make one side evil and the other side good. There's a lot of grey area there on both sides.

The best part about 9/11 (actually the only good part) was the fact that for a brief period of time in NYC we were all one. The haves, the have nots, black, white, Dems, Republicans; we were all one, united. Our politicians managed to act as one, too, for a period of time. Keep in mind that people become politicians oftentimes out of an incredible ambitious desire to be in power, for no other reason - not even to help our society. I hate politicians.

We're in a tough period of our history right now, with Islamic fundamentalists plotting to kill us in every inch of the globe. Now is not the time for stupidity and selfishness. Now is the time to really band together as one and fix the mess we're in, not just point fingers and say 'we could do it better' solely to garner a few more votes.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Politicians will never band together as one, and are even less likely to do so with an election coming up. My guess is the run for the presidency will be among the ugliest in history.

People can band together as one, but not our elected leaders.

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Posted By: Dan

Jeff,

That is absolutely 100% correct! AMEN! Now, how do the people take this and turn it in to something we can use? If only I had that answer. I think that if someone running for office stood up on a platform driven by this logic, they would be very succesful. What is also sad is that the independant's are not taken seriously, why do we need a Democrat or Republican in the White House, Senate, House of Representatives, Governors office, Mayor's office, etc. What we need are strong people whom have the people as their main concern.

We call this a Soldier's Soldier or a Sailor's Sailor, etc, meaning it is someone who cares for all of those subordinate to him/her. In this caring for them, they see their entire purpose is to protect and fight for the needs of those subordinate. This is what we need.

When you kiss your babies goodnight tonight, think of this child and his bed and thank God for all that you hold dear and safe. His bed, a blanket on the floor, oh by the way, there was no door to close in the doorway and no windows to close in the opening where the windows once were.

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Posted By: David Vargha

My guess is the run for the presidency will be among the ugliest in history.




DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Dan

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It's ugly all over....

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
While I agree that our leaders will not come together as they should at this time, they have in the past laid party politics aside for the greater good. I think the best example is when Wendell Wilkie went to England to meet with Churchill after losing a very bitter election with FDR. Wilkie was against getting into the war and against FDR's policies, but he put that aside and represented the President in a very key time and place. Too bad Speaker Pelosi couldn't follow the same path. Be well Brian

PS I encourage everyone who can to attend a service at Arlington, or visit your local VA, so you can appreciate the sacrifices being made.

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Posted By: barrysloate

David- where did you dig up that picture? Pretty funny. I'm not a big Hillary fan, but there are slim pickings for 2008.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Brian- you are talking about an era that no longer exists. There was a time when politicians were great men. That's an anachronism today. And we may never see it again.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Too funny Vargha!

I agree with most of what Jeff has to say, but I don't agree that they are doing what they think is in the best interests of this country. I think they are trying to win elections. Plain and simple. Politics is a game and they are playing a game with our men and women who THEY send abroad. Pretty disgusting how they flip-flop and ride the polls. Bush may not be the smartest guy, but at least he has some b*lls.

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Posted By: peter chao

Dan, David, guys

I deserve all the flack your throwing my way. I hated making the analogy myself. Remember, I think that Mr. Cho is a madman just as much as you do.

But people conveniently forget that the Iraq war was really over in a couple of days. The U.S. simply bombed the key military targets and lots of innocent lives were lost.

The terrorists aren't afraid of us, but our allies certainly are.

I hope that all U.S. soldiers will be home soon both safe and sound.

I'm probably way off base. That happens when I've spent 8 years at Cal at Berkeley and spent another 20 plus years practicing law in the Bay Area.

I would like to see the U.S. continue it's reign as a superpower but it's difficult to see how that's going to continue when half the world is afraid of us and the other half hates us.

We are surely lucky that we have the natural resources that we have and the technology that we have. But once we take the position that "power makes us right." We start losing our role as leaders and our moral compass. And our nation will decay just like other modern superpowers have.

Also, our nation will also serve as bad example for our youth, who start thinking that there are times when preemptive war is justified. In my humble opinion it never is, whether we are speaking about nations or madmen like Mr. Cho.

Peter

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, true. I sometimes imagine what it must be like inside a politician's war room when they have to decide what the candidate's position on an issue is. Focus groups are arranged, polls taken, demographics looked at. Eventually whatever the handlers think will get the candidate elected is the position that he or she eventually takes. What the candidate thinks in his heart or head on the issue? Not pertinent.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Mr. Chao -- first it was Barry Bonds with a gun, now it's Iraq. Why do you persist in polluting a thread that should be simply about grieving for and respecting the victims of a senseless act of murder with lunatic analogies? Why? What is the point? Are you deliberately trying to be provocative? If so this is a really inappropriate thread for such nonsense. This tragedy has nothing to do with sports. It has nothing to do with Iraq, whatever one's views on that conflict. Period.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- you are correct that there are no longer any fresh ideas. Politicians do just look for a position that won't offend and will garner the most votes, something bland and safe. That's why so many Americans have become disillusioned with the process, myself included. When I watch a presidential debate it's as about exciting as watching them pump gas. Obama looks like the candidate most willing to take a risk, but I don't think he can win. Too young, not enough experience, middle name Hussein, last name rhymes with Osama- it won't fly.

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Posted By: Cobby33

All that notwithstanding, do we really think this country is ready for a non-Caucasian, non-male president?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Of course not. People from NYC and California sometimes forget that there are other parts of the country that matter.

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Posted By: David Vargha

All that notwithstanding, do we really think this country is ready for a non-Caucasian, non-male president?

I wouldn't vote for Hillary or Obama, but I'd vote for Condoleeza Rice.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

Condoleeza isn't running, is she? Smart woman, but a little too close to Bush. Don't think she would have much of a chance either.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Colin Powell would actually have a chance.

I'm convinced that Al Gore will make a late entry after most of the primary mud has been slung (God knows that Hilary is prepared to throw a record number amount of mud this year - she is such a lovely woman).

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Posted By: Cobby33

So since Geo. W. is the same as Geo., Sr., having Rice would translate to 16-20 years of Geo., Sr. That's comforting

Who said "the only thing we learn from history is that we do not learn?" Earl Warren?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I don't think Gore runs unless the party is really in disarray. It would be too humiliating for him to end his political career not even being able to capture the nomination.

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Posted By: howard

Dan, thanks for the pictures and for your service. It reminds of a story that an old Korean man told me. My friend, Mr. Chung, grew up in Korea under brutal occupation by the Japanese and was still very young when Korea was liberated by the Allies. Mr. Chung compared Japanese troops to American troops as follows: When a Japanese soldier made the slightest move out of the ordinary any child that was nearby would run away at full speed because they fully expected to get hit with a fist or gun butt. When an American soldier made the same move he would be mobbed by children because they thought he was about to give away candy or a toy.

Doesn't really have anything to do with this thread but I think it illustrates a trait of the American soldier that still exists today.

Howard

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, he's never been more popular. I doubt he'll get a chance that he has right now. Hilary and Obama? He can beat both.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Jeff, it's easy to be popular sitting on the sidelines and winning an Oscar and championing the environment. It's the Colin Powell phenomenon -- the outsider, the noncandidate always looks better than the folks in the race spouting platitudes and slinging mud. But once in the race he too has to spout platitudes and sling mud, and I think he loses a lot of that aura he has now. I am not saying he can't win, but I think given his ego he will only run if it is close to a sure thing.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jeff,
I agree Powell could win, but he would never enter the race. He doesn't want to be president, and he doesn't want his views on record. Be well Brian

PS You may dislike Bush/Cheney, but at least you know where they stand. Personally I'd like to see what the historians say about them in 50 years... Lincoln wasn't popular for a very long time, in fact he was seen as a huge failure.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I'm assuming we're not comparing Bush to Lincoln - only the postmortem popularity? I sure hope so!

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Posted By: paulstratton

Piggybacking on what Brian said...I think Lincoln's approval rating was something like 17%. If CNN had covered the Civil War...or WWII for that matter...this would be a much different place for sure. In order to win a war you almost have to deceive the public. It's disgusting, but true.

When is Jeff going to be running for office? Any guesses?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, um, my list of clients makes it impossible for me to get into a co-op in Manhattan. I doubt I could get elected dog catcher.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Brian- I have absolutely no idea where Bush and Cheney stand, because they almost never tell the truth.

I predict nobody wins in 2008, and for four years the people run the country. But I do like Gore (I know, he won't win either).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

PS: Two guys I'd love to see run for President because I actually think they care, are competent and are not slimy pigs: Bill Bradley and Mike Bloomberg. Bradley is a good and decent man and very bright; Bloomberg has done about a 10x better job than Rudy ever did as Mayor - and he's completely self-made, could care less about popular political positions and is an incredible leader.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Doesn't really matter whether he wins or not, does it? Apparently that's not enough...