Ted Z - Chase, Matty, and Johnson were on the same printing sheet

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Posted By: Joe D.

(a thread right up Ted Z's alley I believe )

Going through Trae's great site... and looking at my recent pickup from REA...
I think it is safe to assume that the Chase Blue Portrait, the Johnson pitching, and the Matty Dark Cap were
most likely together on the same press sheet for press runs.

This is a unique printing error which would first lead me to think the cards came from the same press run.
Add to that... all three have the same Sweet Caporal back - and I think we can say with confidence that they were part of the same press run.
The error alone is good evidence.... the common backing where backing is variable clinches it for me.

With regard to how press sheets were layed out before computers....
well, as a printer - where you could - you tried to keep things as is.
It meant time, labor, and most likely more material expense to make changes to a press sheet layout such as moving around players or swapping players out/in.

I tend to believe that 'easiest' and 'most cost effective' is how the T206s were produced.
Once a certain press sheet was layed out, I don't think it would have been likely for the printing company to have made changes.

So, not only will I guess that the Chase, Matty and Johnson shared room on the same sheet for this error run....
I would guess that these cards most likely were together for all press runs.

matty and johnson can be found here:
http://www.t206.org/gallery_pop.php?pname=color

chase:

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Joe- i was the under bidder...congrats on a very cool printer's scrap...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Joe, that is a compelling argument. There may well be more cards with that printing flaw... although I can envision that some folks would have thrown them away. We're fortunate these survived, and that you've put "1" and "2" together to suggest 3 on the same sheet.

Thanks.

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Posted By: robert a

There have been other players found with all colors missing. I believe they all have had sweet cap backs. Wasn't there a baker and griffith a couple of years ago and some others recently? I think Paul t206 collector had one for sale last year.

Rob

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Posted By: Joe D.

with the sweet cap.

that would be very cool if we can confirm that.


We would be able to add them to the list and put them on the press sheet with matty, johnson, and chase.



(michael... sorry for the outbid. It was one of those cards I really wanted to have. Then again... you costed me some money in that auction. That means drinks are on you next time we meet up )


edit: to fix players names in title.

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

Joe, Ted & All, I also think You're correct! Great Thread! These are the two that I own'd(Sold them)! It took PSA 4 submissions to get them to slab them both, They didn't know what they were(are!) I remember a Baker also being out there bout two years ago. All with SC backs... Wish I didn't sell them

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Great get Joe....but, I wish the backs were all Piedmont 150....since the only known PLANK with a Piedmont 150
back is a color error that is "white", like your Chase.

TED Z

Check out this link for the "white" Plank

http://www.t206museum.com/page/cardweek_6.html

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Joe- no sweat, drinks on me...

such a cool card, i really wanted it, but honestly, i am glad you did get it...good work.

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Posted By: JimB

I sold mine to a lurking board member, but thought I would post scans for this thread.
JimB

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Posted By: Joe D.

Since the Plank is Piedmont -
I think it is safe to assume that it was not part of the Matty, Johnson, Chase error print run.

That is not to say that it could not have been on that sheet's layout... just that the Plank example that survived was from a separate press run that had a similar 'error'.

I couldn't imagine a single pressman continuing the same error through plate changes for new backs... so I will say they are separate events.


So -
we have
Chase, Matty, Johnson, and Murphy -- all on the same press sheet (the same 'form').

maybe there are ways to link these T206s to other T206s (not necessarily with this error but maybe with another crazy error, cutting, or distinct printing mark?)

maybe there are ways to link other T206s together.


would be nice to put pieces of a puzzle together and figure out a 100 year old press sheet.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Jim,

There is something quite fascinating about your Johnson (Portrait) scrap--which is that, as a 350/460 regular print subject, Johnson (Portrait) is not otherwise possible with the Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 back. In other words, you will never find a regularly issued Johnson (Portrait) with the back that is present on your scrap.

Scot

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Posted By: Joe D.

Looks like the Johnson pitching, not portrait.

edit: was that available in the SC back you mention?

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Joe,

I meant (Pitching). Johnson (Pitching) is not possible w/ Sweet Cap 460/30 in regular issue.

So Jim's scrap is unique.

Teach me to hurry a post so I can make tracks for home on Friday ....

Scot

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Posted By: robert a

Question for the t206 experts:

I've read on this board that the fronts and backs were not printed at the same time.

Why would they go through the trouble to print the sweet cap. back on printer's scrap and other printing errors?

Rob

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

1. They might have printed the backs first....

2. The messed up front sheet might have gone un-noticed in a stack of good ones, and then got the back side printed.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Frank's suggestion is very likely correct.....

"They might have printed the backs first"


I think before we ever find some sort of uncut sheets of T206's, we will find uncut sheets (or panels)
of pre-printed backs.....without fronts.

Sometime back a printed sheet of Piedmont cigarette packs was discovered, that lends support to this
theory.

So, although the manner in which ATC produced the T206's is still remains a mystery, I'm pretty confident
that pre-printed cardboard sheets of T-brand backs were 1st in this process. Then the fronts were some-
how added.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I must chime in and reinforce what Scot Reader posted. There is no-way that a Johnson (pitching) front
exists with a Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 back. This is an unreported, heretofore, front/back combination.

Are you sure, that somehow, the back scan you posted here did not get mixed up with another back ?

With Scot's tremendous anlysis (and book) as a valuable source; and, Bill Brown's "super-set" spreadsheet....
we now have arrived at a point, where we have these front/back permutations down to a science.

It is no longer a guessing game for T206 collectors.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

I cracked it and (GASP!), erased the pencil with an art eraser before I sold it...

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Posted By: Joe D.

I agree completely with Ted and Frank.

They printed the backs first. They probably kept the presses rolling on the backs and kept the paper (with backs already printed) awaiting word of what player's were wanted.


Evidence of that is the Piedmont sheet that Ted mentioned, and this error - which any pressman would see before backing up a sheet (so the sheet had to be printed on the 'back' already.

Also what Scot mentioned about the Johnson Pitching not coming in SC 460... that may tell the whole story. I think that observation nails the whole situation.

Walk with me back into a press room 100 years ago...

We have paper stock with most every T-206 tobacco brand back already pre-printed and ready to go. On our order listt - we see that Piedmont needs more cards... they want form '5'... the one with Chase and Matty and Johnson and Murphy. The paper is loaded, the first of the plates are on the press (I am guessing T206s had to run through the press many times - I don't think they had the ability to print many colors at one time). The ink is in the fountains... we are ready to roll. The press starts running. The pressman pulls his sheets to check them (as any pressman does during a run) with just the first couple of colors printed on it - turns the sheets over and sees Sweet Caporal. The operator loaded the wrong paper! The printing company can not send sweet caporal cards to Piedmont... they will lose their printing account. The bad sheets that already ran through the press were tossed aside. An apologetic operator removes the remaining erroneous Sweet Cap paper and puts in the correct Piedmont paper.

So - this was not a printing error! The printing was purposely stopped at this point (with much color missing) because the wrong paper was loaded in the press.

Based on what Scot said... that is what I believe must have happened 100 years ago.

And those few sheets that were tossed aside... well, someone in that pressroom decided he liked those little cards that were headed to the garbage. By hand, he cut out the ones he wanted and brought them home that day.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- excellent analysis, I like it.

It takes a professional printer to know how these things occur.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

JOE

Your scenario is interesting....however, I have to suggest that it was irrelevant to the printers what front/back
conbination was valid and which one was a N0-N0. And, if I understood your scenario correctly, this is what
you are suggesting.

Now Barry recalls, when we 1st met, I was doing research and writing articles (back in 1980-84) on how the
early Bowman cards were printed. It wasn't guess work on my part (as we are doing now), but talking with
former Bowman employees and having collected quite a few complete uncut sheets and many Bowman
printing errors.

So, although I defer to your expertise in your profession, I have to disagree with you.

Each T-brand press run was an individual production process. That is, they were not simultaneously
printing Piedmont's and Sweet Cap T206's. It was a sequential process, where they would first start with
the Piedmont brand and produce several press runs of just these cards.
Then, an order would arrive for another T-brand and they would crank up the presses again and start rolling
(with say the Sweet Cap's). With these two brands it is obvious that there were many press runs.

But, with American Beauty's, Broad Leaf's, Uzit's, etc. there could have been only one press run.

Finally, consider this, if this process were not sequential (as I am theorizing here), there would be
total confusion with the front/back combinations. And yet, as complicated as they are....they are well-defined
and we fully understand them.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- why would the front/back combination be irrelevant to the printer?

If someone from the Piedmont Tobacco Company placed an order with the printer for 'x' number of baseball cards, and the printer noticed early in the run that the order was being filled with Sweet Caporal backs by mistake, wouldn't he immediately halt the presses and replace the sheets with ones advertising Piedmonts? If it's true the backs were printed first, the printer could have supplies of both Piedmonts and Sweet Caps, and he can only deliver the proper back to his customer.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I don't know this, but I think that by 1909 JB Duke has all of the various cigarette brands we see in the white border cards in his American Tobacco Trust. Someone could try to figure out when Duke bought Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, and the rest... I believe he had them all by mid 1909.

The white border cards didn't appear in all brands at once. Ted has offered reasons why 3 brands had cards initially, they came out sequentially, and Piedmont was first. I believe he's right. Either executives with the other brands, or ATT executives decided to offer the cards in other brands. Evidently Piedmont sales increased with the inclusion of the cards. Same for Sovereign... so American Beauty wanted or needed cards, too.

I think that is reasonable speculation... they didn't add cards to decrease sales, did they?

So I can envision a pile of Piedmont back sheets initially. They'd print the front sides on some, and save some of the back printed stock for later, maybe. Or they'd wait and print backs as they needed them, but print backs first.

As for this sheet lacking most of its color, someone had to make a conscious decision to quit printing the remaining colors, but to move the sheet over to the cutting process (unless close inspection suggests the cards were hand cut, which doesn't appear the case from a superficial look at the scans). And then there's the question of whether, after the cards were cut, did they actually go out to be inserted into cigarette packages, or did the guy the cut them (he had to know they lacked color) and pocket them...

What a find it would be to locate a small shipping box, with stamps and postmark, mailed from American Lithograph to Hindu's factory, with the original contents, several thousand white border cards neatly stacked, cards that never got to the cigarette packages...

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Posted By: Joe D.

you say:
"It was a sequential process, where they would first start with the Piedmont brand and produce several press runs of just these cards. Then, an order would arrive for another T-brand and they would crank up the presses again and start rolling (with say the Sweet Cap's)."


I am agreeing with the sequential nature you suggest.

What I am adding is that the printing company most likely pre-printed backs and kept that paper ready-to-go (with blank fronts) before the individual orders came rolling in.

From a schedule concern and an economic concern... this makes complete sense and is common in the industry. It is a lot less expensive to print one-hundred-thousand sheets of Sweet Caporal than it would be to print ten-thousand sheets ten different times. In addition to being cheaper - you can knock off half of the print job (time-wise) by printing the backs and having them ready for when orders roll in (when the tobacco company needs the cards).


So, I envision the pressroom had sheets ready to go with each brand.


Scot mentioned that the Johnson did not come in that Sweet Cap back. Add that to the fact that this particular print variation happened in the early stages of the print process... and all of the pieces fit. What we have (I believe) is an order that came in for a tobacco brand that Johnson did come in (say piedmont) -- and the operator of the press loaded up the wrong paper in the press (he loaded up sweet cap paper). It was caught by the pressman and the 'bad' copies were discarded and the 'right' paper was loaded in the press for the press run.


edit to say:
Ted - to be clear - I agree, I don't think the printer thought of what combinations were a 'no-no'. In fact, I don't think ANY combinations were a no-no to a printer. The only reason we don't have certain cards from certain tobacco companies is because those companies did not place an order for those particular cards. So, if one day the printer was given an order for those Johnson cards with Sweet Cap backs he would have printed that order. That day he just had an order for another brand and loaded the wrong paper.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

FRANK

Everything you said in your post is very plausible. Please allow me just one minor modification....
My observation on the printing sequence of the 1st Series (150) of T206's is as follows.....


1st....PIEDMONT

2nd....SWEET CAPORAL

3rd....HINDU (brown)

4th....SOVEREIGN

This sequence is supported by the Mike Donlin (fielding) card in my current Sovereign survey Thread.

And, in the 2nd Series (350) with my list of No-Print Sovereign 350 cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The printer's are just contracted to print according to the orders they are given.

Now, printers are followed up by the Quality Control (QC) guys and it's there where these cards
are sampled and some form of control of the integrity of the product is guaranteed.

But, consider this, if various sheets of T-brands were being printed simultaneously, it would be
utter "chaos" with respect to the front/back permutations of T206's. And, as you know this is
not case....as I said in a prior post, the backs are well-defined.

TED Z

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Posted By: Joe D.

is that the cards were printed over years.... not all at one time.

Maybe not the first run, the second run or the third run....

but I would be very surprised if the printing company went through more than three 'orders' of cards before they realized they should print the backs and have them ready for future orders.

So, by the time '460' were around... there must have been a nice inventory of pre-printed backs paper ready to go.... or they were not too bright.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

This is all very interesting.

I would just add for clarity that Johnson (Portrait) is possible in regular issue with Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 25; he is just not possible with Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30. Maybe the mistake was using a preprinted SC 460/30 sheet insteaed of a SC 460/25 sheet.

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Posted By: Joe D.

what about matty dark cap and chase blue background...
are they possible with the SC 460/30?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Hey guys, before we get too carried away with this, We have to have Jim confirm that his Johnson is INDEED as
his scan shows....a Sweet Caporal 460, Fac. 30.....period ! ?

And, while we are at it....what is the exact back of all the other "white" T206's that have been discussed here ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Joe D.

Ted,

Here is the back of the Chase card (scanned it just now)

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Your Chase (would have been BLUE) is a Super-Print T206, and among many other backs, exists
with backs of Sweet Cap 460, Factory 25 & 30.

TED Z

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Posted By: Joe D.

Ted it definitely is a Chase Blue.

Are we sure that there is evidence of Chase Blue in a SC 460/30?


If so, that may mean that Chase blue was on more than one printing form.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I'm not sure what you are asking ?

As I just stated in my post....this Chase card has been confirmed with BOTH SC 460 Facs. 25 and 30.

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Posted By: robert a

We've seen dozens of printer's scrap with the front printed and no back.

We've never seen even one example of a printer's scrap with a blank front and a printed back.

You guys are telling me the backs were printed first?

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Posted By: Joe D.

Ted, believe me - I trust your knowledge on the set...
I was just checking if we were sure the chase came in that SC 460/30 back.

If (or since) it does, because the Johnson did not, that would mean the Chase was on more than one form (i.e. printed with more than one grouping of cards).

Rob, for sure I would suggest that as a matter of procedure, the backs were printed first. That is not to say that in the beginning the fronts weren't printed first... or that even as the process matured over the years - that it was never the case that completely blank stock was used and fronts were printed first.

Of course it is possible the fronts were printed first from time to time. If a Piedmont, Sweet Cap, and Sovereign order came in - and the printing company only had piedmont and sweet cap stock on hand (no Sovereign), they could very well have printed on the piedmont stock, followed by sweet cap stock, followed by blank stock (all just paper loading not separate print runs). Then at a later time the printer could have come back and printed Sovereign... and then continued to print more sovereign backed to keep up their inventory.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I have a T206 that's blank on the front with a Piedmont back.

We are leaving for the day. I'll scan it sometime this weekend.

Everyone....have a happy and safe Memorial Day holiday.

TED Z

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Posted By: robert a

Very interesting.

Thanks Ted and Joe.

I look forward to seeing the blank fronted t206.

I guess if there were more blank fronts that survived, it wouldn't make much sense for folks to hang onto them since there's no player to enjoy.

Rob

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted is right.

Chance (Yellow) Chase (Blue), Chase (Dark Cap), Cobb (Red), Evers (Yellow Sky) and Matty (Dark Cap) are the six 350/460 superprints and thus can be found with both SC 460/25 AND SC 460/30. None of the other 55 350/460 subjects can be found (at least in regular issue) with SC 460/30.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I'm thinking about how could there be front printed blank back cards if the backs are printed first....


I'm the printer. I print a pile of big sheets, Piedmonts on the back. I then start printing the fronts on there... an order is now placed for cards with Sweet Caporal backs... I have my press set up for card fronts, which I'm printing with those Piedmont backs. When I get the Piedmonts done I just keep on printing on blank stock, printing fronts, 'cause my press is already set up for that.

If Milo Rambaldi (the guy from the 1400's in Alias, the TV show, who left those futuristic devices) had really existed, I don't doubt he'd have had a hand in T206 production, distribution, and subject selection... this has a Topps 792 card set from modern times beaten, hands down.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ted- i was about to say that i thought the opposite, that the fronts were printed first, because we from time to time see blank backs, but never blank fronts (until i just saw your post that you own one)...very interesting...

seems like that points to the case that sometimes they printed fronts first, and other times, backs first...

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
I'm on the road until tomorrow afternoon, but in my opinion the printing was done this way.

1. Duke new his sales figures from 1908 and projected 1909
2. Duke played a prominent role in the formation of the American Lithograph Co., and was actually the largest silent partner.
3. Piedmont, Sweet Cap and Sovereign were the most popular brands of the day, so they were printed first.
4. Hindu was extremely popular in TX and LA and was only distributed there.

Gotta gooooo Will have more in the pm Brian

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Brian- sorry i have not had a chance to call you back...just been swamped...

let's catch-up this week, have some cool new T206 pick-ups to tell you about.

Best-
MS

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Posted By: Dave S

If I'm understanding the various super-prints (maybe I'm not), how is this card possible?!?!

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Posted By: JimB

Ted and Everybody,
Sorry for the delay; I haven't read this thread for a couple of days. As I mentioned, I have sold the card, so I can't look at in person now, but I am virtually 100% sure that the scan of the 350/460 Factory 30 is from the Johnson front. I made those scans when I sold the card and labled the scan at the time as "T206 Johnson Pre-Production front" and "T206 Johnson Pre-production back".
JimB

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Your Sheckard is one of the 48 cards in the 460-ONLY Series (the last series of T206's).

These 48 cards are available with both Sweet Caporal 460, Factories #25 and #30.

The 55 cards from the prior Series (350/460) cannot be Sweet Cap 460, Factory #30.....
but, are available with Sweet Cap 460, Factory #25.


And, to reiterate what Scot said in his last post, the 6 "super-prints"....although they are
in the 350/460 Series....are the exceptions to the rule; and, are available with both Sweet
Caporal 460 backs.

These 6 super-prints are also available with at least 14 other backs.

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

guys- the johnson front & back above match each other...study the diagonal crease, it matches.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I don't see both front and back images of the Johnson....only the back. How are you getting both of them ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Scott B.

Majority of these yellow brown printer scraps have SC460 f30 back.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ted- JimB's post on may 25th, at 7:00pm has 2 images, johnson pitching front (printer's scrap) and the back.