Is the Grading System Broken?

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Posted By: JimCrqandell

Barry,

I think its more that they don't have the expertise to detect the sophisticated alterations that are going on now. As one president of a card grading company told me last night, guys are spending "every minute of their day" on improving their craft of card restoration. At this point in time, I believe that the crooks are ahead of the grading companies, speaking about them as a group.

Heck, if Kevin can show Mike Baker, who most consider the top grader in the business, a few things I am sure he and others can teach an average grader a heckuva lot.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- that's an excellent observation, and quite alarming. If the card doctors devote the time needed to hone their craft, why aren't graders attending seminars to learn how to keep up with them? That's a great failure in the system.

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Posted By: Jason L

Jim,
I agree with you that Corey probably shouldn't be trying to censor you (that whole freedom of speech thing), but I do think his logic is correct, even if it is totally understandable why you would not want to open yourself up to such losses.

Leaders are far more effective when actually out leading the charge on the field, so to speak,...rather than giving a speech and then letting others go out into the fray without the leader's backing.

Does this become simply an argument about order of magnitude...why should someone other than yourself be more or less excited to submit his or her cards for re-examination than you should? Simply because his or her collection is worth less than yours?
If (and I say if because I'm not sure that this is the case) you are saying, "No, you resubmit yours to the fight. I'm not doing it because I have too much to lose!" -well, that does kinda fall limp, because while, yes, you may have the most to lose if the % of alteration is found to be high, you also have the greater ability to effect change (as someone said before), and therefore the most to gain by taking the risk. What you would gain may not be apparent now, but it may reveal itself later through the benefits that accrue to leaders over time.

I truly mean no offense, Jim. I just think that some of Corey's argument has merit. Also, for the record, if I were so fortunate as you to have your collection, I cannot with any even near-certainty, guarantee that I would take this gamble on re-submittal either. I take no high road, I just think the potential benefits deserve consideration.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jason,

Fair enough--reasonable points.

Not sure I want to be a leader--just want things to change. Noone else appears likely to run with it though.

Even if I was committed to taking a big loss, not sure that this would effect change.

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Posted By: barrysloate

There are usually several solutions to a problem, and while asking Jim to resubmit his collection for a second look may be one of them, I don't think shipping out 25,000 cards and paying a quarter of a million dollars in new grading fees is necessarily practical. Maybe there is some other way Jim could lead that would have an impact.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I agree with Corey's premise in that it would be great if you could submit your entire collection for a rewview by some neutral grading party. However, I agree with you that you should not be exposed financially for such an endeavor. Corey, no way would PSA ever underwrite such an experiment, i.e., paying Jim for any cards that don't come back as 8s. PSA does NOT want Jim to do such a thing so they'd just ignore any request. It is clearly in PSA's interest to let sleeping dogs lie.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Jim,

Let's be clear. According to me you can lead the revolt if you're willing to abide by the same standards of those whom you desire to lead.

Your goal, which I happen to support, is to expose the failings of the grading industry as regards alterations. The only way grading companies will take heed is if their customers (the Jim Crandells of the world) not only demand change, but are willing to back their words with actions. Actions in this case mean showing to the hobby that in fact many altered cards do get into slabs with numerical grades, which then presumably would put tremendous econmic pressure to bear upon the grading companies to do a better job of detecting alterations. This cannot be accomplished unless the owners of such slabs are prepared to have the cards re-examined, the necessary first step to establish to the grading companies that the problem exists. The fact that you're not willing to take the financial hit doesn't surprise me. It is a lot of money and to be fair, I can't say what I would do if I was in your position. But I do know that if I wasn't willing to do it, I wouldn't be talking about it so much. It's just so hypocrital. So, of course, feel free to talk about whatever you like. But getting people to listen is another matter.

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Posted By: Rob

if a card in an sgc holder is found to be altered, what will SGCs guarantee refund? The grading fee? or the price you paid for a card in an SGC holder?

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Posted By: Jason L

that this issue with be resolved around about the time that the issues surrounding performance-enhancing drugs are worked out!!!

It is actually the same problem, if you think about it.

Question for the Board:
Is there now in existence a person or organization that is neutral enough and well-respected enough to be an arbiter in this grading dilemma?

Others have mentioned the world of coin collecting having gone thru pains in the past...where is that now? were things solved over in that camp?

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

What about SGC? Assuming the great majority of Jim's cards are PSA-graded, SGC would have a PR bonanza exposing how many altered cards get into PSA (non-authentic) holders.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- perhaps a more practical plan would be for you to review a portion of your collection and pull out 50 cards that even you feel don't look quite right, and submit that group to SGC for review.

It's silly to suggest that Jim ship all 25,000 slabs but a sample would be a pretty good litmus test. And if a high percentage of those are deemed altered, say 10 or more, I would be having a long and hard talk with PSA. And if they turn out to be fine, mission accomplished.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Kevin, It's my understanding (from a SGC grader) that if trimming is an issue, one has to look at the edges of the card, and that cannot be done when the card is in a slab. I've crossed over a few cards to SGC and when trimming is at all suspected, they've called me on the phone to get permission to crack it out. This must be why SGC doesn't want to cross over cards valued at more than $500."



Yes...edges are the key and you can't detect a good trim job without looking at them. This can be done while slabbed as long as most of the edges are viewable. Granted, this is not the case in some instances, the card may be too tight against the gasket. It is by far, easier to inspect while raw...by far. I did write a rather lengthy post on detecting card trimming a couple weeks ago or so. It may have gone unnoticed.

Not to say this is being done but if I was an authenticator I would tell you it is impossible to examine a card in "the other guys" holder. Let me crack it out, then put it in mine.

Jim I would not have your cards subjected to a resubmission. The cost would be staggering. Plus where ever you send them, one would have something to gain, the other something to lose. I don't think you would get a fair unbiased opinion. You would have to find an unbiased party who has nothing to lose or gain...and that can detect alterations. Tough situation.


Kevin

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Posted By: T206Collector

....this thread is going on today. It's like the December and January threads leading up to the great pizza dinner in NYC last January.

For the record (again), I agree that Jim should put his cards to the test here. But what is lost from this current discourse is that the vast majority of Jim's 25,000 graded cards are all 1950-1970 baseball, basketball and other common issues that are not the issue. As Jim himself has stated, he has stopped purchasing T206 cards because that's the harder question, i.e., where the factory processes were not nearly as exact as good old Topps had it.

What I wanted Jim to do last year, and in fact offered to help subsidize, was crossing all of his 100 or so PSA 8 T206 cards into SGC holders -- for the same reasons as stated in this thread, i.e., put his money where his mouth is, that sort of thing. Our conversation devolved into generic name calling, etc., but basically that was the deal -- and even at those stakes, there was nary a nibble. Jim was going to hold his 100 or so PSA 8 T206 cards and there was no interest in seeing what SGC would say about them.

With respect to SGC's guarantee, if you purchase a $25,000 card in an SGC slab and it is later determined to be fake/altered, etc., they will refund you the $25,000 (or the difference between your cost and actual market value as a result of the alteration). The day they refuse such a refund is the day we all have to be careful -- and the day that I start shopping for another 3rd party authenticator.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I think I said this on this board but perhaps not.

When I thought PSA was going to half grades, I toyed with the idea of having GAI reslab my entire collection. I believe Mike Baker offered to reslab my entire 22,000-card PSA collection for free If I would submit an additional 5-10,000 ncards at $2 per card. In addition if I did this I would talk it up in ads and on the message boards to give the company maximum publicity.

While I am not considering reslabbing any of my collection, if I did do something this is the kind of deal I would expect.

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Posted By: Dave F

Jim, Paul is right...I don't know that anybody is worried about your 1968 Topps in 9's or 10's. It you have 100 T206's in 8's or above...take ten....submit those to SGC in their current holders..I wouldn't bust them out, that would be stupid. But 10 of them...ask for the same "minimum" grade that they are in PSA holders....see out of the 10 what comes back as what....this talk of 25,000 cards having to be converted is just crazy.

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

Earlier Jim wrote:

"Sorry but I do not think its unreasonable for grading companies to be able to detect altered cards consistently and to invest the necessary money so that they can do so.
I am not talking about strong 9s and weak 9s etc. I am talking about microtrimmed/reworked cards that are getting into holders."

Jim,

I agree that grading companies should be competent and aggressive regarding detecting altered cards. But I also believe collectors need be diligent as well. Clearly, altered cards are gigantic problem compared to buying cards with bad eye-appeal.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

What you are indicating appears to be true, but that would just be a guess on my part.

Kevin--can you make a judgement based on this?

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Corey, SGC would LOVE to expose Jim's cards as trimmed in PSA holders. That's why you'd need a true neutral party to examine the cards; SGC has too much of an incentive to claim that PSA wrongly slabbed his cards.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Unfortunately unless it's a hack job, you can't tell for certain from a scan. In person, it should not be a problem. Plus, the back would also need to be seen with the edges.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"That's why you'd need a true neutral party to examine the cards"

Jim, I'm a neutral party with loyalty to no auction house or grading company and I have a little experience detecting altered cards.

Next time you come to SoCal, bring some cards and I will examine them for you...at no cost of course. I have been doing this for years for some of the top collectors with cards valued from $50 - $100K+. How can you beat that deal?

Kevin

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Posted By: T206Collector

"SGC has too much of an incentive to claim that PSA wrongly slabbed his cards."

I had 40 PSA 4-6 T206 cards submitted as crossovers to SGC. When they would not cross a card over, 10 of my 40 would not cross, they circled the problem area of the card on a plastic sleeve in which the PSA slab was enclosed, and provided a description of the reason why. In every single case it was obvious once pointed out to me what the problems were. Not a single time did I go, "Huh, maybe SGC got this one wrong." From a hairline crease in a PSA 6 I never noticed, to a trimmed edge that I always suspected was trimmed but had given PSA the benefit of the doubt, these were not hard calls. It is not like SGC is going to be performing rocket science on these cards. As Jim has previously admitted, even he can point out which ones are problem T206 cards. Getting SGC to agree that there is a problem is nothing more than a confirming opinion of skepticism about a PSA grade.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

A premium service ?

Say someone like Kevin were to get the equitment and offer a premium service for all T206 cards.

Start with being untampered and finish with a numaric grade. Would this work ?

Seems to me that people would pay much more for something that is carefully studied by an expert instead of the assembally line's that we deal with now.

We all know that if you resubmit enough you can sneak a card or two through.

So lets say you have to pay 100.00 for the service. But your return on that holders rep would more than make up for the gradeing fee.

Just thinking out loud while working. I'm sure it's not perfect but you get the idea.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- it's actually a good idea and there is always room in the marketplace for a better product. I think the machine that sonically seals the holders would be kind of expensive, but if somebody can do a better job than what is currently being done, there is opportunity for success.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, I didn't mean to suggest that SGC is untrustworthy; in fact, I'd trust them much more than PSA any day of the week. My point is that simply giving the PSA slabs to SGC to review is just fraught with the appearance of bias; if they claim that too many cards are trimmed the built in excuse of financial incentive to denigrate PSA will always be present.

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Posted By: Joann

Instead of having someone risk cards that are already graded, wouldn't it also be possible to have someone trim up a bunch of cards and send some to each company?

I know no one wants to trim a card b/c that is also a loss. But if someone honest wanted to try to take 50 4's and turn them into higher grades, that would be a far lower financial risk than sending in 100 8's to be cracked out of holders.

But it'd have to be someone honest and good at trimming. With before and after pix, including the holders.

Now wouldn't that be something if it were ever to be posted here?

J

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Unclear how tainted SGC's review would be. Yes, they would love to show the hobby how poor a job PSA does. But, if they were rational about it they would realize that anything they do will be intensely scrutinzed. If it were shown through adjudication to a true neutral expert third party (e.g., Kevin) that SGC was on a witch hunt, then SGC just shot itself in the foot and arguably will lose business from this whole episode. Or, to put it another way, the very fine line that SGC will have to walk, given the neutral third party adjudication hanging over its head, might very well insure that if anything they err on the side of saying that what PSA did was right, not wrong.

However, I agree that the appearance of bias, even if there is none, will as a practical matter be impossible to eliminate. And that therefore in a perfect world the best solution would be either to (1) take the cards to a qualified person who has no economic interest in the outcome or (2) submit them to SGC as raw cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

We haven't even talked about rebacked cards which have made it into holders. Many of the thicker cards, such as N28's, have been known to be rebacked with nonbaseball N28's, and often the work has been so skillful that it has escaped detection. There are myriad problems that need to be addressed.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Barry,

You raise a fundamental issue that I think is one that escapes the card purists -- it is akin to the tree falling in the woods with no one around scenario (does it make a sound? who cares?) -- if there were no way to ever know whether a card was doctored, would you still want to collect that set?

Jim has chimed in that this ruins his enjoyment of at least T206 cards and so he will not collect them until there is something that provides him with at least more if not perfect assurances in this regard.

My view is that I love T206 cards. If a doctor can doctor a card and the doctoring can never be detected, then I do not care. But if the doctoring later becomes dedectable, as in a reformed crease that had been expertly pressed, I want some reassurances. SGC provides those to me so far. If it turns out they don't, I'll look elsewhere. But in the meantime, I enjoy my cards. Gosh -- isn't that what they're for?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

"Whore Fight". PSA SGC GAI Beckett: all are paid experts. If PSA says "yes" and SGC says "no", you simply have two opinion whores stating their paid opinions. Neither proves squat about the card in question.

I return to my original premise: it is inherently irresponsible to substitute a whore's viewpoint for your own intelligence and knowledge, and if you are going to collect, you must take the time and put in the work to understand your collections before plunking down big bucks to own the cards, or suffer the consequences.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you could not detect doctoring, why would you think to question it? You could keep a card forever if it looked fine to you.

Edited to add "whore"? They may not be your favorite people but hopefully they keep their pants on!

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Posted By: boxingcardman

The system is structured so that an expert with an opinion that is not favorable to your case doesn't ever see the courtroom. Any retained expert testifying for any litigant is there only because he or she has expressed the opinion that the litigant is looking for, thus the term "whore".

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

Ah, nevermind.....

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"We haven't even talked about rebacked cards which have made it into holders. Many of the thicker cards, such as N28's, have been known to be rebacked with nonbaseball N28's, and often the work has been so skillful that it has escaped detection."



Ah..now this is a skill that separates the men from the boys so to say. If you ever want to freak out, take a look at a rebacked card that has been well made. I have a couple that will be going on diplay with Global. One is a real head turner.

Not to worry, it has a preventive measure built in that most (hopefully all) graders should catch. It can only be see with a loupe though.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I guess they are ready to be beaten...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I tend to agree with Paul on this one: if I can't detect any alterations in my slabbed cards I just co-exist with them in a blissful state. Life is difficult enough to have to spend nights staring at the ceiling wondering if my prized heirlooms have been tampered with -- especially when they reside in slabs which will guarantee their future sale at the prevailing market prices.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

To correct two misstatements by T206(among many),

1)"as Jim previously admitted, even he can point out which are problem T206 cards"

What????? I don't know that I have any problem cards--as far as I am concerned they may all be fine. I certainly never said this.

2)"Jim has chimed in that this ruins his enjoyment of at least T206 cards and he will not collect them until someone provides him with more assurances in this regard"

For your information, I am not adding to my 128(another mistake) cards at this time because I am a set collector in 8 or better and I do not have the funds to complete the set and do all the rest I am trying to do.

Stop misquoting me or lieing about what I said or what I think. I say enough on Net54 or I have said enough that if you want to try to ridicule me you can pick from what I have said not make things up!!!!!

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

On resubmitting my cards to SGC or GAI, I know Dave Forman and Mike Baker very well and I am confident that either would do a fair job and not be driven to embarass PSA--they could call them as they saw the.

Kevin--I have not forgotten about your offer--I just do not get out to SoCal that often.

I like the idea of a premium service at $100 per card. I would not be surprised to see this evolve in the future.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

You guys are so idealistic it brings a tear to my eye.

A premium service? Imagine PSA's "premium grading service" desgined to ferret out even the most hard to spot alterations. They'd charge $100 a card and throw them in the same pile as the 15 day specials....

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Jeff,

I should have added a premuium service by a different company.

For example, what if Derrick Grady, former head grader of SGC, offered a service where he charged $50 per card?

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think that's a great idea. If PSA used an outside, well-thought of grader who charged a premium, and the card was still slabbed by PSA with a PSA cert (albeit in a higher-end, say, black slab). This way the Registry guys would be satisfied and the resale value would increase due to the more coveted review. While I love the idea and would pay for it for every card I owned worth more than a few grand, I'm sure PSA wouldn't go for it. They'd claim that their crack grading staff catches all the bad cards anyway....

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

So we're going to grade the graders now?

-Al

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, yeah, I suppose. I guess the rationale for the elite grading level would be the opportunity to have your card looked at by an outside, highly regarded source who will spend more time on it than the average Samsonite gorilla who slabs for PSA. Of course, you get the fancy, high-end black slab too. Don't forget the fancy slab, Al.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I'm all about the fancy slab, Jeff.

Ultimately I'm not sure the answer to any issues people might have with their grading company of choice is to create a higher-tier grading company, though. Just to be serious for a second, of course. I think, for my money, a better idea would be to develop a level of confidence with your grading company of choice, and if you can't, to find another grading company - or none at all - be confident and enjoy your collection.

-Al

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Jeff,

Sorry if I did not make it clear--Derrick Grady would have no affiliation with PSA--it vwould be a separate company.

Every card $40--no exceptions--guaranteed to examine each card as long as it takes to give it its proper grade and guaranteed to be completely versed in what the crooks are doing.

If Derrick Grady were to start his own grading firm and Kevin were to sign up I would give them a fair amount of business.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

But Jim, I believe that the lure of the Registry would cost this new business a lot of cards. Certainly they'd get the really high end cards of which Registry issues are not significant. Regardless, I would send my most expensive cards there as well.

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Posted By: MikeU

"If Derrick Grady were to start his own grading firm and Kevin were to sign up I would give them a fair amount of business."

I am going to have to call B.S. on you Jim. I think you personally feel Mike Baker and Dave Forman are both head and shoulders above anyone at PSA. Yet, you give them nothing. Are you saying Derrick Grady and Kevin Saucier are head and shoulders above Mike Baker and Dave Forman? If you are, than that is fine. If not, then what you said is simply not true.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Then we can have a N54 toga party in their honor.

Seriously, how far over the top do we have to take things? Isn't it enough to simply select a plastic guru and trust their views as long as they back their views with buy-back policies? Do you now really want to have a super-duper grader to take extra special care with your cards just so you can have another opinion? And we all know what that means to the other 99.99999% of the cards out there; they would be treated as being in the equivalent of PRO slabs or GAI slabs. Do you really think a vastly more expensive system of slabbing will deter or catch the great card doctors that are evidently running wild on the high grade materials? I don't. The artists are far ahead of the curve; they've been restoring artworks for decades. And who will these super-graders be? Surely not the same clowns who've already panicked you with their shoddy work to date? Someone once said that the definition of insanity is redoing something that you know didn't work the first time. Well....

The dons of grading must be licking their chops in anticipation of the fees to be reaped from super-premiere-extraspecial-double-secret grading.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

"and who would these graders be?"--I gave you the names.

Most consumer markets end up segmented and thios should be no different.

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Posted By: WP

Jeff,
Woud PSA be admiting they were at fault if they refused to put a normal psa slab in a "black Label'?

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Slabed slabs, that's what we need! It would look something like this:






"Are you saying Derrick Grady and Kevin Saucier are head and shoulders above Mike Baker and Dave Forman?"


Keep in mind I didn't say that.


Kevin