m113 Walter Johnson's Pitching Arm - seeking opinions

[doug.goodman]

As some of you are aware, I have a thing for the m113 / m114 Baseball Magazine posters, and have been working on determining their individual release dates.

Basing my findings primarily on advertisements for the posters in individual issues of the magazine, (which started with Ty Cobb in August 1909), while using the various caption printing styles to lump some of them together (which generally matches the ads), I am getting very close to releasing an updated catalog for the m113s.

But Walter Johnson's Pitching Arm is blocking my way.

Johnson (v2-1) Walter ARM 1504 LBNK N215 R320 m113F .jpg

For the sake of this conversation I am ignoring that there are four known printings of the poster, focusing instead on just trying to determine when the first of them would have been released.

m113 differences - Johnson (v2) Walter ARM small.jpg



Johnson is first advertised in the September 1912 issue.

1912-09 First Ad.JPG

But when first pictured in the October 1912 issue, he has just thrown the ball while wearing a sweater.

1912-10 First Pictured.JPG

This vertical picture (which I call his "type 1") continues to be pictured in every issue thru and including November of 1913. Starting in December 1913 no picture or mention of Johnson appears in the poster ads.

However, that December issue does contain the first of a three part series of stories about the arms of pitchers.

1913-10 BBM Pitchers Arms Story pt1 (13) small.jpg


That picture of Johnson bears a striking similarity to the posters, but a few pages later is what might be the same picture used for the poster.

1913-10 BBM Pitchers Arms Story pt1 (15) small.jpg

The story, along with the pictures of Johnson's arm would seem to set an obvious release date for the poster, except for the fact that he has been removed from the ads.

Also, every m113 poster of an individual is vertical and shows their full body, except Walter Johnson's Pitching Arm.

And, every horizontal m113 is of a team, except Walter Johnson's Pitching Arm.

How could they have released such a unique image on a poster without mentioning it in the ads, or anywhere in the magazines that I can find?

I don't understand it.



Fast forward to the April 1915 issue, which finds Johnson again mentioned in the ads, albeit with no picture, and no fanfare.

1915-04 1 full.JPG

Don't see his name? He's hidden in fine print.

1915-04 1 zoom.JPG

He remains hidden in the fine print thru January 1935, well into the m114 era which starts in Dec 1916.


It makes sense that Johnson would return to the ads in the April issue as it's the Walter Johnson tribute issue. No less than 41 pages devoted to him, plus the cover.

1915-04 BBM Johnson Issue (11) small.JPG

But nowhere in that issue is the poster mentioned.

I am currently of the opinion that April 1915 is when the Arm poster was released, basing that opinion solely on his return to the ads, but I go back and forth on whether it might be December 1913. Both dates have their own logic.


If you have an opinion, or better yet some sort of "proof", as to the release date for the initial Walter Johnson's Pitching Arm poster PLEASE share it here.

Thank you very much,
Doug

[Casey2296]

-
Great research Doug and best of luck solving the mystery, I have nothing constructive to add but every time I see that incredible image of Johnson's arm I'm reminded of this image from Michelangelo c.1512 appropriately named Hands of God.
-

[Kevin]

Nothing to add either, beautiful picture. 132 feet per second translates roughly to 90 MPH.

[brianp-beme]

Even less to add, except this is what Michelangelo would have painted if he was born in the United States a few centuries later, and was a baseball fan.

Brian

[GoCubsGo32]

Is that a Charles Conlon photo as well? If so, maybe able to find the date when the photo was taken.

The clue about his salary might help narrow the timeline..
"This arm is reported to earn $12,500 yearly salary"

I found this of Walter Johnson's salary history. Probably needs to be double researched...but it's a thought.

1907 - $2,700
1908 - $3,500
1909 - $4,500
1910 - $7,000
1911 - $7,000
1912 - $7,000
1913 - $12,000
1914 - $12,500
1915 - $16,000
1916 - $16,000
1917 - $16,000
1918 - $16,000
1919 - $16,000
1920 - $16,000

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by GoCubsGo32

... The clue about his salary might help narrow the timeline.. "This arm is reported to earn $12,500 yearly salary"

1913 - $12,000
1914 - $12,500

Nice find Gary, that would aim us at Dec 1913...

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by GoCubsGo32

Is that a Charles Conlon photo as well? If so, maybe able to find the date when the photo was taken.

All the posters say "Copyright by Baseball Magazine" and the pictures in the pitcher's arms story say "Specially Posed for The Baseball Magazine". No photographers are mentioned or credited in the story, that could find, except for Paul Thompson's photo of Three Finger Brown's hand.

My guess would be the arm photos were taken in late 1913 in the lead up to the story being published.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

-Great research Doug and best of luck solving the mystery, I have nothing constructive to add but every time I see that incredible image of Johnson's arm I'm reminded of this image from Michelangelo c.1512 appropriately named Hands of God.-

There's no film, but I'd guess that God had some amazing stuff: terrific speed and mind-blowing out pitches.

[Hankphenom]

I believe this picture first appeared in conjunction with a 1912 Baseball Magazine article on Walter's visit to the Remington Arms Factory for a speed test, which was so flawed as to render the results dismissible out of hand. I think Honus Wagner also had a horizontal M113.

[FromVAtoLA]

I seemed to recall a Type 1 photo of this selling. If so, maybe the date stamps would help. I went to RMY and the ones they've sold are a different picture and from 1920 (like this one). So not much help there, but maybe digging into other photo auctions may help. Good luck!

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I believe this picture first appeared in conjunction with a 1912 Baseball Magazine article on Walter's visit to the Remington Arms Factory for a speed test, which was so flawed as to render the results dismissible out of hand. I think Honus Wagner also had a horizontal M113.

That speed test is where the stats on the poster come from. Wagner has a vertical m113 (2 versions) and a horizontal m114 (9 versions).

[doug.goodman]

The thing about dating the picture is that it doesn't really help us to date when the poster was issued, except to define the early end of the possible time frame.

The Ruth Red Sox batting poster was released in 1921, 1925 & 1927; but the picture was taken in spring training 1918.

I suppose what I was hoping was that somebody would say "there is mention of the poster in the (month / year) issue of the magazine".

I have not been able to find any mention, but I do not have every issue.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

That speed test is where the stats on the poster come from. Wagner has a vertical m113 (2 versions) and a horizontal m114 (9 versions).

As I said, the speed test was completely worthless for that purpose, but has been cited often. Are there horizontal player M114s, Doug, other than WaJo and Wags?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I believe this picture first appeared in conjunction with a 1912 Baseball Magazine article on Walter's visit to the Remington Arms Factory for a speed test, which was so flawed as to render the results dismissible out of hand.

The article you are thinking of was published in Dec 1912. It ends with :

1912-12 BBM Speed Test (15) 2.JPG

This is the picture of Johnson from the story, and no mention is made of an Arm poster in the issue.

1912-12 BBM Speed Test (12)-2.JPG

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Are there horizontal player M114s?

All the team m113s (18) and team m114s (51) are horizontal.

The only player m113 that is horizontal is the Arm.

Players with horizontal m114s are :
Tom Brewer
Ben Chapman
Wilber Cooper
Dizzy Dean (also has a vertical)
Waite Hoyt
Tony Lazzeri (also has a vertical)
Lee Thornton
Clifford Melton
Arthur Nehf
Eppa Rixey
Herb Score
Harold Trosky
John Henry Wagner
Buck Weaver


I don't think I missed any, I didn't have a list of these, I just flipped thru my collection.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

All the team m113s (18) and team m114s (51) are horizontal.

The only player m113 that is horizontal is the Arm.

Players with horizontal m114s are :
Tom Brewer
Ben Chapman
Wilber Cooper
Dizzy Dean (also has a vertical)
Waite Hoyt
Tony Lazzeri (also has a vertical)
Lee Thornton
Clifford Melton
Arthur Nehf
Eppa Rixey
Herb Score
Harold Trosky
John Henry Wagner
Buck Weaver


I don't think I missed any, I didn't have a list of these, I just flipped thru my collection.

Thanks. What differentiates M113s from M114s?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Thanks. What differentiates M113s from M114s?

They are bigger, and were all issued prior to 1917 except for the White Sox and Giants 1917 teams, but an argument could be made for them being m114s.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by GoCubsGo32

I found this of Walter Johnson's salary history. Probably needs to be double researched...but it's a thought.

1912 - $7,000
1913 - $12,000
1914 - $12,500
1915 - $16,000

Hey Gary - where did you get that chart of his salary from?

This is what's on Baseball Reference :
1913 $7,000 Celler Committee transcript 1393
1914 $10,000 Celler Committee transcript 1393
1915 $12,500 Celler Committee transcript 1393

Which would then seem to aim us closer to an April 1915 release date.


But, I think the most logical conclusion is arrived at by noting these facts :

1 - the story on pitcher arms, with the arm picture is published in Oct 1913
2 - also in Oct 1913, there were press reports of a $12,500 salary (see picture below)
3 - by 1915 there were reports of Johnson making way more than that
4 - the story on pitching arms continued thru the Dec 1913 issue

It makes sense that the poster came out in late 1913 or early 1914.

Because they announced 16 posters in the Dec 1913 issue, and another 17 posters in the Jan 1914 issue, I'm going to say they were too busy to create this completely unique one until Feb 1914.

I don't understand why they they wouldn't have advertised it, but maybe they did and I just haven't discovered the ad(s) yet. I need to check other places besides the magazine. A guy on ebay is selling a page from an old Reach guide that is a ad for the posters.

Maybe not having any ads would explain why it wasn't mentioned in the original SCD catalog.

Anybody have any thoughts on me deciding to call it a February 1914 release?

Doug


PS - not sure why most of the pictures disappeared from my initial post. It's the first time I have ever used the paperclip button in the message window, so probably something to do with that. I need to attach them like I usually do.

[GoCubsGo32]

Hey Doug,

Yes, a few pics from your initial post were not showing up. I've tried myself to post pics and seem to have issues still. Not sure why. So kinda gave up with posting pics at the moment.

My post with WaJo salary history was from Baseball Fever, which is overall a good baseball website source.
https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...rical-salaries

This is what I found of WaJo salary history with my research with newspapers:
1913 - $12,000
1914 - $12,500 (9/13/1913 Wajo asked for $12,500....signs for that amount on 10/2/1913 for the 1914 season)
1915 - $12,500 for 3 yrs signed on 12/19/1914.

*has a confusing timeline with the Fed teams & Wsh offers.
Washington offers $16,000 ann. salary from June 1914 - Nov 1914
StLFeds offered $20,000 ann. salary for 3yrs but withdrew on Nov. 26, 1914
Dec 4, 1914 Wajo signs with ChiFeds for more than $16,000 ann. salary for 2yrs.
---legal stuff---
Dec 19, 1914 Wajo signs with Washington for $12,500 ann.salary for 3yrs.

I would agree with your timeline as well for when the poster was likely released Dec. 1913 or early 1914. Even though Wajo made the same amount for when the April 1915 issue came out.
I feel if the magazine company went all out adding that extra text & unique vertical style to the poster-it would be for something big news or report. I don't know if that poster being release for the April 1915 issue would have the same effect, since Wajo was already making $12,500 salary in 1914. That's just IMO.

I too wonder why no ads for a unique poster from the m113 series, but my guess is it's probably out there somewhere! Hopefully it can be found.

**Edited for update**

[akleinb611]

Hey Doug:

My theory is that Baseball Magazine advertised the Johnson Arm poster wherever and whenever they advertised the release of their Victor Saier poster.

Alan

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

Hey Doug:

My theory is that Baseball Magazine advertised the Johnson Arm poster wherever and whenever they advertised the release of their Victor Saier poster.

Alan

Haha, and Carrigan.

Originally Posted by GoCubsGo32

I would agree with your timeline as well for when the poster was likely released Dec. 1913 or early 1914. Even though Wajo made the same amount for when the April 1915 issue came out.

Gary, good stuff.

I think the key to the caption is not what he was getting paid in any specific year, but what was being REPORTED as his pay and $12,500 was reported at a time that fits with the poster being printed late 1913 / early 1914, by 1915 reports were $16k and up, even though he signed for $12,500 again.

[doug.goodman]

I reached out to the Baseball Hall Of Fame to ask what info they have on the arm picture :

"Unfortunately, there is no photographer or date listed on our copy of this photograph, as a note says that it was copied from a borrowed photo."