HOF Rookie- McCarthy

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Posted By: identify7

Until a few days ago, I had never heard of this HOFer, eventhough he has been in the Hall for over 50 years. I guess I just don't get around as much as others do.

Anyway, although "why is he in the Hall" appears to be a valid question to me; the actual question which I have is - why does his card cost four figures in almost any grade?

How rare is this guy's card? Hal boasts of (arguably) the third best example at vg/ex!

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I can safely say that the third best example of his Old
Judge card is not vg/ex. Perhaps the third best slabbed card by a particular grader but not the third best overall.

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Posted By: identify7

Well Jay, I did attempt paraphrase Hal's statement, perhaps I read something into it which was not intended.

But don't stop now! Please tell us what you know about this card.

Edited to add:

Or the player.

ie. $1000+ = why?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

A .292 hitter, 468 SB, no milestones, and one crappy year as a manager. Must have been one of the vet committee gaffes.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

HOFer with a minimal number of cards results in the aforementioned price tag. Whether or not he belongs in the HOF is another issue.

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Posted By: DJ

I agree. Especially since he was inducted in 1946. You might as well open the flood gates and induct O'Neill, Mullane, Wyhing, Buffington, Pfeffer....and others.

HOF bio:

Tommy McCarthy teamed with Hugh Duffy to form the "Heavenly Twins" duo in the Boston Beaneaters' outfield of the 1890s. In addition to being a fine hitter with exceptional speed, McCarthy was a clever, daring and intelligent player who originated many tricks, such as trapping fly balls to fool opposing baserunners. A lifetime .294 hitter, he stole 109 bases in 1888 to help the St. Louis Browns capture the pennant.

The Hall Of Fame Biography even blemished the stats as McCarthy stole 93 bases in 1884, not 109. 109 were stolen by "The Freshest Man On Earth", the original clown prince of baseball Arlie Latham.

I could make the same claim for Hall Of Fame honors for one of my favorite players of all time, Arlie Latham. Latham played seventeen years, had 400+ more hits than McCarthy, 400+ runs than McCarthy (including led the league in runs in 1886), 300+ more stolen bases than McCarthy. Where McCarthy was a "fancy fielder", Latham added humor to his arsenal, had two consecutive seasons of 100-plus stolen bases, played over 1,500 games at third base, first to use sliding glove, played on four consecutive pennant winners (St. Louis, American Association, 1885-1888), discovered a young player named "Ty Cobb", peddled dill pickles, first majoe leaguer from New Hampshire, taught King George V how to throw a baseball, played roller polo, tried to bring baseball to England.

Back To McCarthy:

McCarthy's cards (7)
1887 Gypsy Queens N172 Catching
1887 Gypsy Queens N172 With Bat
1887 Old Judge N172
1888 F.W. Guerin Studio Cabinets St. Louis with Comiskey
1888 Old Judge Cabinets N173 Right Hand at Head Level
1888 Old Judge Cabinets N173 With Bat
1895 Mayo's Cut Plug N300

An n172 of McCarthy SCG40 sold in 19th Century for $660 in July.


DJ

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Maybe McCarthy became adept at such fielding tricks as trapping fly balls because he just wasn't such a great fielder.

Statistics seem to say he was slightly worse than his contemporaries in both getting to and catching balls.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mccarto01.shtml

Although they played different positions, Arlie Latham was statistically a better fielder than McCarthy as well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lathaar01.shtml

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Seated middle row, left of center. 1887. with Oshkosh.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Clarification on the McCarthy listing above. He actually has 9 different N172 poses. 5 poses were issued in 1887 (Philadelphia) with an additional 4 introduced in 1888 (St. Louis) together with a couple or re-issues from 1887. All 9 poses were again re-issued in 1889. McCarthy is among the easier 19th century HOFers to obtain a copy of.


edit: If you truely want the rookie card (1st year issue with Philadelphia), it will be a little more difficult than I've stated above.

Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: identify7

David Levin's McCarthy prices shown on his site:

vg - $1140

vg/ex - $1500

ex - $2000

These prices are way out of line from other comparable players offered by Dave. They are closer to the prices he lists for Monte Ward or Von der Ahe.

Whether he prices his cards high or low is not the issue. I am comparing Levin prices to Levin prices here.

And his prices are reasonable imho.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Joe made a very good point.

The card that I have of McCarthy is one of his 1887 Philadelphia poses (even though PSA labeled it as "St. Louis").

These are his true rookie cards and are not as common as the other OJ's of him.

If anyone can show me more than TWO of these 1887 "Phil." cards of McCarthy that have been graded higher than mine...

then I will gladly change my web site.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I couldn't resit posting this one (Hal's is a better pose).

I doubt there is another PSA graded McCarthy Philly 1887 out there grading better than a "4".... I also, agree with Jay's intimation that there are several (not graded) cards out there in better condition.

As to the player: he is generally considered the most undeserving 19th century HOFer (excluding the "pioneer HOFers).... His big appeal is that legend suggests he was the Andruw Jones of his era in the field (notwithstanding the few fielding stats we have for him)... My sense is that Curt Welch was probably the superior CF of the era. McCarthy was also regarded as one of the key players on a dyansty -- the Boston NL team of the 1890's.

I'm not sure whether -- from a statistical/sabremetric position -- his inclusion in the Hall of Fame is any worse than many subsequent players. Lindstrom, Marquard, Haines, Maranville, Tinker and even Kell were later players that many of the voters may have actually seen at one time or another and they are also considered my many as wholly underserving.

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Posted By: identify7

I am sorry to drag you into this Hal. It was not my intention to focus on your collection. I certainly did not mean "boasts" as "brags about", simply "proudly displays". Sheesh.

I just wanted to know why Dave priced this card way above similar offerings of his. It looks like I will have to ask Dave. I hoped there was some well known or obscure fact that I had missed here which results in the apparent price difference.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I'm cool. No problem. Did I seem angry?

I was just explaining why I have it the way I have it on my website.

I honestly do NOT think that there are more than two OJ McCarthy cards (of the same pose from the same year) graded higher than mine.

If there are...I'm OK with that...as long as someone will sell me one of them!

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Posted By: identify7

Angry? How could anyone who portrays himself with an alligator head seem angry?