POLL: Trimmed Card Prices

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I know that some of us hate trimmed cards while others love them for their bargain prices... so I would really be interested to see if we could get some serious answers to this question.

PLEASE answer this poll AS IF you had the financial ability to spend big money on baseball cards... and PLEASE ignore whatever cards you ALREADY own.

In other words, don't say "I woudn't pay $5 for that card because I already own it."

BUT... please be REASONABLE and do NOT say "I would spend $1,000,000 for that card because I am now filthy rich in my imagination."

PLEASE BE SERIOUS. Thanks.


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How much would you pay for:

1) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Honus Wagner card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC-TRIMMED"??

2) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Ty Cobb w/Ty Cobb back card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???

3) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Plank card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???

4) A fairly nice VG-EX 1914 Babe Ruth Baltimore News card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???

5) A fairly nice VG-EX 1893 "Just So" Cy Young card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???

6) A fairly nice VG-EX 1903 E107 Breisch Williams Christy Mathewson card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???

7) A very nice MINT 1914 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???

8) A very nice MINT 1949 Leaf Satchell Paige card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???

9) A very nice MINT 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???



THANK YOU in advance for your serious input.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Hopefully you guys can just "CUT AND PASTE" the questions from above and then post your answers with them, like so:

1) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Honus Wagner card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC-TRIMMED"?? $25,000

2) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Ty Cobb w/Ty Cobb back card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED"?? $5,000

3) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Plank card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED"?? $5,000

4) A fairly nice VG-EX 1914 Babe Ruth Baltimore News card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED"? $50,000

5) A fairly nice VG-EX 1893 "Just So" Cy Young card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED"?? $75,000

6) A fairly nice VG-EX 1903 E107 Breisch Williams Christy Mathewson card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED"?? $15,000

7) A very nice MINT 1914 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED"?? $15,000

8) A very nice MINT 1949 Leaf Satchell Paige card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???
$10,000

9) A very nice MINT 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???
$5,000

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Posted By: identify7

Hal: Not all of us keep abreast of current prices for each of your examples. Would it be acceptable to cite prices for Authentic/Trimmed as a percentage of the untrimmed pricing?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Sure Gil... except that some of thse cards cited DO NOT EXIST very often in real life in the conditions stated.

In other words... if NOT TRIMMED... some of the cards mentioned would be close to PRICELESS.

They certainly would be so rare that we do not have very many historical examples to use a price references.

I have no idea what a MINT 1914 CJ Matty card would sell for if it was untrimmed. Same is true for a "Just So" Cy Young, etc.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

Speaking about $1,000,000 cards, the T206 Wagner that Gretzky
won in Sotheby's and then Gidwitz bought, and I forget who owns
it now, was always considered to be altered.

This card was floating around back in the Willow Grove Show days
and was identified most hobby veterans back then as being
trimmed.

So, my point is if this "famous" copy is questionable, what does
it matter anymore concerning any lesser card ?

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Hal--Obviously, this is hypothetical since card appearance would be important but here are my rough guesses:

1-Wagner--$100K
2-Cobb/Cobb--$15K
3-Plank--$2K
4-Baltimore News Ruth--$75K
5-Young--$60K
6-E107 Matty--$25K
7-Paige--Nothing: Too modern to accept trimmed
8-Mantle--Nothing: Too modern to accept trimmed

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ted:

OK, then you get to answer a special question:

How much would a PSA 9 T206 Honus Wagner sell for these days if EVERYONE agreed that it was NOT trimmed??

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

1) T206 Wagner 50K
2) Cobb/Cobb 50K
3) T206 Plank 5K
4) Ruth 35K
5) Young 33K
6) E107 Matty 8K
7) 1914 CJ Matty 15K
8) 48 Leaf Paige 3K
9) 52 Mantle 8K

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jay:

I tend to agree with you on the "Too Modern" comments... but I tried to pick two cards that are pretty darn uncommon in very high grades.

For you, like Ted, I have a SPECIAL question:

How much would a NRMT Old Judge "Cap Anson in Uniform" card go for in an SGC holder that said "AUTHENTIC-TRIMMED"??

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Posted By: identify7

To me it is simply a question of rarity.

I do not care that some cards are desireable because the player was popular or because the card fits into a set. If you can afford the t206 Plank and Wagner, for example, why collect the more common cards? Additionally, the backs of cards are only of interest if that is what you collect. But if you can afford the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb, why bother with the other backs?

That is:

Popular players
Rare backs
Key set cards

Are cards which have interest to others.

************************************************** ************************

Im sorry, but it is my imaginery money which Hal so gratiously gave to me. And I am gonna buy what I want.

For the reasons shown above, I do not want 1), 2), 3), 8), 9).

************************************************** ************************

Unfortunately the 1914 CJ Mathewson is a member of a very attractive and popular set. On that basis, I have to reluctantly eliminate that card.

************************************************** *************************

I will gladly bid whatever is required for each example of 4), 5) and 6) which I can obtain. Duplicates do not bother me at all, since they are not duplicates, solely different examples of a very desireable (to me) card.

************************************************** ************************

I am sorry if my response did not fit your requirements Hal. But I couldn't bring myself to spend the imaginary money on just anything. So now Im back to collecting the crap which I also love.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Thanks a lot.

Big help you are!

Are you REALLY telling me that you would not spend $1,000 to own that 1914 CJ Matty card that I described??

I don't believe it for a minute.

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Posted By: identify7

I do not have an interest in bargains. They are time and effort consuming. Plus they distract me from my quest.

I would like to expand the list of cards which I can acquire though.

Id like to collect the entire 350 club consisting of Jackson, Hornsby, Cobb, Alexander, Spahn, Nichols, Galvin and Johnson; if suitable cards exist which can compliment my Matty and Young. Spahn may be quite interesting to find an example to include.

How's our imaginary money holding out?

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Posted By: steve k

If they could be resold, the cards of course would all have value and some a lot of value - but not to me.

If I was not allowed to ever resell any of the cards, I would pay nothing for any of them except for the t206 Wagner which I'd give a thousand for. I am just a real stickler for untrimmed cards - obviously I can't stand trimmed cards.

Steve

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Posted By: Anson

1) T206 Wagner 20k
2) Cobb/Cobb 20k
3) T206 Plank 3k
4) Ruth 25K
5) Young 45K
6) E107 Matty 10K
7) 1914 CJ Matty 10K
8) 48 Leaf Paige pass
9) 52 Mantle pass as well

I might throw some good money at a trimmed Anson in uniform, Four Base Hits Kelly, a Balt. Newsboys Cobb, or Yum Yum Anson.

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Posted By: Sean Coe

A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Honus Wagner card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC-TRIMMED"?? $35,000

2) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Ty Cobb w/Ty Cobb back card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? 10,000

3) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Plank card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $2,500

4) A fairly nice VG-EX 1914 Babe Ruth Baltimore News card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ???$50,000

5) A fairly nice VG-EX 1893 "Just So" Cy Young card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $50,000

6) A fairly nice VG-EX 1903 E107 Breisch Williams Christy Mathewson card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $15,000

7) A very nice MINT 1914 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $5,000

8) A very nice MINT 1949 Leaf Satchell Paige card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? Too modern to want trimmed.

9) A very nice MINT 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - Too modern to want trimmed

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

OK, this is going nicely!

We are learning that "modern" cards (anything AFTER 1941) are NOT of any particular interest to the vintage collectors on this board in TRIMMED condition.

While some of this might understandably be due to the fact that these are not always considered "vintage" cards...

I think it is more due to the fact that the 1949 Leaf and 1952 Mantle were MASS produced AFTER the paper drives during WWII (when a ton of vintage material was recycled.)

Thus, people are NOT willing to own those cards in TRIMMED condition REGARDLESS of how rare and valuable they would be if NOT trimmed.

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We are also learning that RARE vintage cards... like the Young and the Ruth... are STILL very valuable even when trimmed.

This is obviously because it is probably the ONLY way that anyone could ever own one of them... so something is better than nothing at all.

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And... once we get a lot more opinions...

then hopefully we will be able to determine a PERCENTAGE by which people tend to value TRIMMED cards when compared to UNTRIMMED versions.

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Posted By: John

Hal here are my answers. Hope this helps. I like trimmed cards and am ok with them just wouldn’t pay close to retail for them. I tend to think that trimmed cards are only worth about 10-15% of the equal non-trimmed price. That’s the guidelines I’ve set up for my self, however with these I may be willing to pay more just because of rarity and supply vs. demand. With the exception of the Mantle and Paige.

Hal Can I add a card? T206 Magie : "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" looks VG-EX to EX??? $1-2k

1) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Honus Wagner card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC-TRIMMED"?? $25-40k

2) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Ty Cobb w/Ty Cobb back card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $4-7k

3) A fairly nice VG-EX T206 Plank card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $5-8k

4) A fairly nice VG-EX 1914 Babe Ruth Baltimore News card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $20k

5) A fairly nice VG-EX 1893 "Just So" Cy Young card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $5-8k

6) A fairly nice VG-EX 1903 E107 Breisch Williams Christy Mathewson card with even wear that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $5-10k

7) A very nice MINT 1914 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $5k

8) A very nice MINT 1949 Leaf Satchell Paige card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $800-1k

9) A very nice MINT 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card that was in an SGC holder that said: "AUTHENTIC - TRIMMED" ??? $800-1500k

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Posted By: identify7

My crystal ball says:

Cards with a total population of five or less will yield 80% of untrimmed value,

Those with a population of 10 = 70%

25 = 50%
50 = 20%
>50 = 10%

Of course there are potentially other factors, such as demand, which will apply to some higher population cards. The t206 Wagner is an example of this.

I wonder if the above is true.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

First, you have to realize I do not subscribe to any of the Grading services.
If I acquire a graded card for my collection, I immediately free it from its
plastic "tomb". And, you would be surprised to hear what i have discovered in
this process. But, we will leave that subject for another thread.

To answer your special question, I just simply referred to the latest PSA
Market Report and it says $1,500,000.- I know I took the lazy way out and I
hope I did not disappoint you; but, numbers like these are way above my pay
grade.

If I had 1.5 Million to spend I would buy as many Pre-War (not the "Big
One"....as Archie Bunker called it), but the "War to End all Wars" (WWI) card
sets that my money could buy. You see, I firmly believe in the "law of large
numbers".

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Posted By: cmoking

A trimmed Mantle in a PSA holder sold on ebay recently. If not for trimming, I would guess it would've been a PSA 6 or 7. It went for $8200. How much would a untrimmed well-centered PSA 6 or 7 52 TOpps Mantle go for? Maybe that would be a dcent indicator of the difference between a trimmed and a non-trimmed one.

PSA Trimmed Mantle

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think the rumors are that people have offered up to $3 million (in real, not imaginary, dollars) to the owner of the PSA 8 Wagner... but he has refused to sell.

Based on this rumor...

I think a PSA 9 Wagner of unquestioned authenticity and undoubtedly untrimmed would sell for close to $5 million.

Does anyone agree or disagree with this?

Remember, it only takes TWO big egos with big bank accounts... and there are plenty of professional athletes alone who meet this criteria.

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<I think a PSA 9 Wagner of unquestioned authenticity and undoubtedly untrimmed would sell for close to $5 million.>>

Hal - I think it would be difficult to have such a Wagner card unless there was an abundance of documentation as to its origin and residence over at least fifty years. I just cannot imagine that such a card could exist today, without hobby knowledge, and have unquestioned authenticity.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

True... which is why some people would pay $5 million if it did!

Nobody "thinks" it's possible... but if the card surfaced from someone who was a direct descendant of the President of "Sweet Caporal Tobacco"... then it wouldn't seem too crazy at all.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

Mike Gidwitz and I used to have some long conversations (since
we shared a common interest in un-cut sportscard sheets) and
when he acquired the aforementioned Wagner for $600,000 several
years ago, he told me it would be the first Million dollar card.

And, sure enough he got a Million for it.

What you are saying is certainly realizable in this present day
economy. The Stock Market is up and more importantly the Real
Estate market is booming so there is a lot of Equity capital
out there. And, you are right if some overpaid celebrity or two
wants part of this sportscard action, who knows what the limit
is.

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Posted By: John

Oh yeah what would you pay for a PSA 10 from the descendent of the president of Piedmont while were at it?

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Posted By: John

Hal IMO it’s exactly what that is…a rumor. I find it hard to believe that he has been offered double what he paid and has refused. Now if I only had 3 million to test my theory. But one thing for sure it would have to pass all three grading companies and a whole slew of experts with a 100% unanimous decision of un-trimmed or un-altered before I would offer that kind of cash.

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Posted By: identify7

In this hobby "old time collectors" can easily be in their fifties, since the hobby really was not underway until 1980 (ie. price guides).

And the old time collectors, as well as those before them, knew to hold on to t206 Wagners because they were way less available than most other cards.

It is easy for me to believe that some Wagners are out of circulation, and will stay that way in the foreseeable future.

You do not need to be a card manufacturer descendent to have a t206 Wagner provenance which easily withstands scrutiny.

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Posted By: WARSHAWLAW

I'd pay 5%-7%, max, of the "normal" price for the card. Anything more than that and I think I'd try to spend 10%-20% on a full, low grade specimen.

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Posted By: steve k

<<< I think a PSA 9 Wagner of unquestioned authenticity and undoubtedly untrimmed would sell for close to $5 million. >>>

I think this hypothetical card could sell for around 5 million.

Give or take a million either way - LOL

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Posted By: DJ

I can understand where a person wouldn't mind a slightly trimmed T206 card but I have no use for a card that I would consider "incomplete".

I would not pay anything for a trimmed card and have no use for them in my collection. I would rather have a heavily creased Wagner than a Wagner missing 1/16th of itself.

DJ

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Thanks guys, keep them coming!

I think the "sliding scale" formula is probably right.

The "super rare" cards (1887 Anson in Uniform, 1914 Ruth, 1893 Young) are going to sell for a lot REGARDLESS of whether they are trimmed or not. Probably 75% of normal value.

The "pretty rare" cards (1903 Matty, 1914 CJ Matty, T206 Wagner) are going to sell for a premium but still pretly reduced. Probably 33% of normal value.

Some "desireable" cards (1949 Paige, 1952 Mantle) that are somewhat rare in high grades will only draw about 15% of face value because of how many untrimmed examples are available in low grade.

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Posted By: cmoking

How did you come to a conclusion on your Mantle?

SMR on a PSA 7 is $18K, I don't know if that is market price or not. A trimmed one that looks like a PSA 6 or 7 if it wasn't trimmed went for $8K on ebay. Seems around a 55% discount if people thought it was PSA 7 quality if not for the trimming.

Do you care about the prices that cards actually trade at? Or do you care about what board members are willing to pay?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

I have to differ with you regarding Paige. Last week an off-
conditioned Paige that was advertised as being trimmed went
for over $500 on Ebay. I am not certain, but I believe there
was very brisk bidding on this card in the final moments by
more than just two bidders.

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Posted By: zach

actully it went for 910 dollars...a big shooker to me

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I didn't cheat and came up with the following prices without looking at what other folks answered.
1-25k
2-10k
3-5k
4-25k
5-40k
6-25k
7-5k
8-n/m
9-n/m
The price is a function of prices for an unaltered card and the availability of alternative copies.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Zach

Thanks for correcting my number. I think I gave up on it when
it was over $400. I have a real nice Paige and I was thinking
if I could replace it in my set with a lesser one, then I might
just sell my nice one. It is really tempting to sell mine as I
see what this card is selling for on ebay. One comparable to
mine went for appprox. $6000., recently.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

I'm not sure how you can group the Breisch Williams Matty with the 1914 Cracker Jack Matty as "pretty rare". There have probably been more 1914 Cracker Jack Matty's sold in the last year than the total number of Breisch Williams Matty's in existance.

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Posted By: Paul

I don't remember for sure, but I think that trimmed Leaf Paige went for over a thousand. And the trimming was quite noticeable. I would gladly pay 15% book for a slightly trimmed Leaf Paige.

I assume the game here is that the trimming is pretty slight, clearly trimmed but still slight. Once you start getting into homemade diecuts and half-cards, the values would have to go way down, even for a T206 Wagner. (I believe the diecut version of that card sold for about 35K a few years ago).

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Posted By: Zach

Paul- The paige went for 910 dollars...a lot for a trimmed modern card.

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Posted By: WP

Do you think the degree of trimming has anything to do with the value?

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Posted By: steve k

<<< Do you think the degree of trimming has anything to do with the value? >>>

Without question. For instance that 52 Mantle which cmoking posted the link for, appears to only have a doctored corner. That's why it sold for over $8,000. If it would have been one of those "normal" Pro graded cards whereby an EX type card is trimmed on all four edges to give it sharp corners and make it appear to be a NM card, then that 52 Mantle wouldn't have sold for anything even remotely close to $8,000.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Yes... the assumption is that the cards APPEAR fine to the naked eye...

but were found to be trimmed by SGC (and PSA and GAI).

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Posted By: Mike McGrail

1) T206 Wagner 40K
2) Cobb/Cobb 35K
3) T206 Plank 3K
4) Ruth 20K
5) Young 50K
6) E107 Matty 9K
7) 1914 CJ Matty 20K
8) 48 Leaf Paige .5K
9) 52 Mantle 1K

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

On EBay, the price of an item is one increment over what the second-highest bidder offered...

so the cards thus far would have sold on EBay for:

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1) T206 Wagner (VG-EX but slightly trimmed) = $50,100

2) T206 Cobb/Cobb (VG-EX but slightly trimmed) = $35,100

3) T206 Plank (VG-EX but slightly trimmed) = $5,100

4) 1914 Balt. News Ruth (VG-EX but slightly trimmed) = $50,100

5) 1893 "Just So" Young (VG-EX but slightly trimmed) = $60,100

6) 1903 E107 Matty (VG-EX but slightly trimmed) = $25,000

7) 1914 CJ Matty (MINT but slightly trimmed) = $15,100

8) 1949 Leaf Paige (MINT but slightly trimmed) = $3,100

9) 1952 Topps Mantle (MINT but slightly trimmed) = $5,100


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Do ANY of you want to OUTBID anyone on ANY of these cards???

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

So for only $250,000...someone could own ALL NINE of the most INCREDIBLE baseball cards in existence!!!

Sure they would be slightly trimmed... but they would still be the REAL THING!!!

Pretty amazing.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Hal--Why do you call these the most desireable cards in the hobby? Everyone has a different view but I think the Paige card and the Cobb/Cobb are not that interesting at all. I think the Anson in Uniform, the Kelly Player's League card, the 4 Base Hits Kelly and Ewing and the Kalamazoo Bats Ewing and Ward are all better vintage cards than those.

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Posted By: identify7

Yes, I want to outbid on cards 4,5 & 6.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I'm not interested because I'd always look at them and know they are trimmed--plus I couldn't sell them to one of you guys for a decent profit

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Posted By: cmoking

I'll pay $8100 for a nice mint (but trimmed) 52 Topps Mantle and flip it on ebay.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jay:

Because "the hobby" is a lot more than just "pre-war" vintage cards. It goes all the way from 1845 to 2005.

BUT... obviously there is no real value to any TRIMMED cards after about 1952...

so I did not include the 1963 Rose rookie card or the 1999 Upper Deck Griffey card, etc.

-------------------------

And you still haven't answered my question:

How much would an Old Judge "Anson in Uniform" sell for if it was EX in an SGC slab... but judged to be ever-so-slightly trimmed???