Opinions on Soaking/Pressing

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Posted By: RayB

Al,
Sort of like the questionaire to find out if your at risk for heart disease or something. Respectfully Al, I am sure you are looking for answers as each of us see's ourselves handling each situation. Answers should give you some flavor for the ethical boundaries of each collector. Right or wrong we have only ourselves to live with on this issue. My answers are in BOLD.

Al writes:

"Do you guys try and make your cards look more presentable before sending them in for grading? NO, IF THEIR NOT PRESENTIBLE TO THE STANDARD I"M SUBMITTING FOR PRIOR TO SUBMITTING,I DON"T SUBMIT THEM. Or do you just toss them into a card saver and ship them off? YES.

Do you press a frayed corner back into the card so that it's not flipped up in the slab, or do you leave them frayed? LEAVE AS IS, OR DONT SUBMIT.

Do you wipe fingerprints off the card, or do you leave them there? LEAVE IT ALONE.

Would you flick a little goober off the face of the card with a fingernail, or do you leave the goober? ASSUMPTION IS GOOBER IS AS OLD AS CARD. LEAVE IT OR DONT SUBMIT.

Maybe wipe off a small patch of glue or tobacco, or let it remain on the card? REMAIN ON CARD.

Do you blow dust off the card, or leave it dusty? IF MY CARDS ARE DUSTY, I DONT HAVE TIME FOR CARDS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If the card has a little fuzz along an edge, do you try and press it back into the edge, so that it's a little less noticeable, or do you leave it? LEAVE IT OR DON'T SUBMIT.



Last year I bought a small lot of T206s, really cheap. They all had scrapbook paper on the backs. One of them had a Tolstoi back - my first. I was bummed that I couldn't see the entire Tolstoi ad, because of the paper. I noticed that the scrapbook paper had flipped up in one corner, so I grabbed it with my finger, and tried lifting it up a little more. Boom - the scrapbook paper came right off the card, with almost no effort at all, revealing a beautiful Tolstoi ad.

Should I have glued the scrapbook paper back onto the card? I"VE NEVER OWNED A SCRAPBOOK SO THIS ONE IS A HYPOTHETICAL. I WOULD LIKELY LOOK TO SELL THE SCRAPBOOK AS IS.

Guys; this is really the way I feel.
Respectfully,
RayB

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I am NOT encouraging "soaking and pressing."

NOBODY IS.


I am just realizing that it seems to be very prevalant...

undetectable...

and has been going on for DECADES.





Therefore, to act like ANY of us would know if we owned a "presoaked" card is ludicrous.

Some of mine may have been soaked... or they may not.

There is simply no way to know.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...expectations that their cardboard has never been soaked in water and pressed flat with no visible, smellable or tastable evidence of that practice can go on living that dream. The rest of us are just happy that the card looks, smells and tastes the way it does today, regardless of its 100 year history.

Like I said above, alteration means altering the card itself. Restoration means putting new material into holes in the card. Removing scrapbook, glue and dirt with water is neither altering the card or restoring the card. Erasing pencil marks without disturbing the fabric and fiber of the cardboard is also a good idea. It takes a mark added after the factory and removes it without hurting the factory condition.

I feel very differently about using chemicals which, though not visible, stay with the card. I have two Polar Bear T206 cards without any tobacco staining that have snow white borders. SGC will not grade them because they believe that they have been chemically soaked. And I get that. SGC will, however, grade cards that have been soaked only in water. That is also the line that I draw. And yes, cards with wrinkles look better after a good soaking and pressing. But that's the same story even without the water:

HOW MANY OF YOU PUT CARDS IN SCREW DOWN HOLDERS? THIS KEEPS CARDS FROM GETTING WARPED AND WORN AS THEY WOULD IF THEY WERE NOT IN SCREW DOWN HOLDERS. IF YOU TAKE A WARPED CARD AND PRESS IT WITHOUT WATER OR ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN A STACK OF BOOKS, IS THAT ALSO ALTERING THE CARD?

The semantics of this discussion are really something else. But very interesting.

Finally, where were all you nay-sayers when I was posting thread after thread of my experiences removing gunk from the backs of T206 cards with water soaking/pressing? Are you all new to the vintage card hobby, or just this Board?

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Posted By: identify7

And if there is no way to know, there is no reason to care. Because if an alteration is undetectable, it does not exist.

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Posted By: RayB

Gil's comment: "And if there is no way to know, there is no reason to care. Because if an alteration is undetectable, it does not exist."

That comment is typical of today's society... If your neighbor beats his dog, but the bruises are undetectable, I suppose that doesn't exist either. Ugh!

RayB

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

No, but if my neighbor bathes his dog in PURE WATER and leaves no marks...

then I am OK with that.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

thats a STTTRRREEETTTCCCHHH on that one Ray.....
an undetectable stain on a 1.5 x 2.5 piece of cardboard versus beating a dog?

Can you, without question, say you don't have any cards that have been soaked and dried?

Check back at the Mastronet catalogs over last 3-4 years. I can guarantee that there have been no less than 3-4 albums of cards in there that went very high regardless of the fact they had cards glued in. I can also guess that those cards most likely no longer reside there.

While I don't think that MOST of the cards out there now were at some time pasted in an album, I do allow for the fact that a lot of them are. If the graders at PSA and SGC that everyone is so enamored with can't tell the difference, how's anyone to know?

Before you slash me with the dog comment, I have a 10 pound schnauzer that thinks she's a doberman, so don't mess with me on that analogy or I'll sick her on you........

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Posted By: RayB

I missed your last threads on this subject and would have thoughtfully offered my opinions there as well.
Rather than a Nay sayer, I would prefer to think I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to vintage card collecting. This Board has incredible accumulated knowledge and built in value when it comes to the subject of vintage cards and I have enjoyed my dealings recently with some of it's quality participants.
Secondly, this subject cuts to the heart of an ethical issue collectors care about. No matter where one falls on this one can only be short sighted by not at least allowing for quality discourse.
I just happen to feel strongly one way, recent or long term participation here not withstanding. I love vintage cards, plain and simple.
RayB

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Posted By: identify7

Re. Gil's comment: "And if there is no way to know, there is no reason to care. Because if an alteration is undetectable, it does not exist."

I did not intend that this statement would apply to a situation such as:
If your wife can not prove that you cheated on her, then you didn't.

My intent was that if science and other technology can not establish that a change to a card has occured, then nothing detectable has happened. And if it is not detectable, what is there to concern yourself with?

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Posted By: Morrie

"It's a matter of ethics. It's not whether or not a given card in your own collection has ever been altered in it's travels prior to it residing with you, it's more about whether or not you have soaked, are soaking or would be willing to soak for condition enhancement. I'm against it. If your answer is yes I do it than it's sad you feel that way."

People who purchase low-grade cards with the sole intention of altering them and subsequently taking advantage of grading companies' inability to detect the alteration to make a profit are behaving unethically. I think that's a given.

"Overlooking or grudgingly accepting the fact that a small percentage of cards have been tweaked over the years is one thing; but Espousing and utilizing the "Doctoring 101" methodology of soaking cards is bad ethics."

This is not. Not all card soaking is done for profit-based reasons. Some of it really is, quite simply, because collectors like to see as much of the card as still exists. It also doesn't do much good to bemoan the cat being out of the bag, since I don't know about anyone else, but literally everything I know about card soaking, I learned on this board. This thread contains no information that wasn't already archived here, and since I don't believe that sharing information is wrong (barring things that threaten actual harm to people, which this doesn't), posting and re-posting it isn't something I can accept as unethical, either.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with the extent to which you're willing to generalize it.

Morrie "my last name's further up the thread too, moderator dude" Mullin s

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Posted By: RayB

If you have been reading my posts, I don't discount the fact that there is a possibility that there may be a card or two in my collection that have received thr proverbial annointment. Because of the this prevalence it seems to go without saying.
I only maintain, I don't do it, and why.
Do what makes you feel good because you only have yourself to answer to.

Thanks.
Ray

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Posted By: Anson

It certainly makes life a lot easier other than truly worrying that your cards MAY have been soaked at some time. Car buffs do all kinds of tricks to classic cars to make them look nice, without altering the car itself. As previously mentioned, some of the nicest works of art are treated the same.

Please send all of your undetectable, soaked cards to me. Cobbs anad Wagners included.

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Posted By: cmoking

Let's say you bought a lot of 75 T206 SGC 60 cards at a fair price. A year later, you find the following:

25 cards have been soaked and wrinkles pressed out. The wrinkles have not come back, and you don't expect them to after all this time. You cannot detect there ever were any wrinkles on the card.

another 25 cards have been soaked to get glue/paper off of the card. You cannot detect that there was ever glue/paper on the card.

The other 25 cards you know nothing was done to them.

Now two situations:
A. If you knew what was done to each card, would you sell or otherwise get rid of the any of them?

B. If you didn't know what was done to each card, but knew that only 25 of them were not soaked - then what do you do? Do you sell or get rid of all 75 cards thinking that at least you are getting rid of 50 soaked cards?

I think this is a dilemma for modern day collectors. If cards are being soaked and things done to them that are not detectable in any way by anybody, then it means any card you buy, whether it be a SGC 40, a PSA 7 or anywhere in between, could have gone through some soaking. Does this mean an anti-soaker needs to get out of the hobby?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If a paper conservation technique is accepted by every museum in the world for its fine prints and works of art, don't so blithely toss out the idea of those same techniques being applied to cards. Museums do not allow their collections to degenerate or remain damaged. If some moron spills his coke on a Rembrandt print, the museum sends it to a conservator who will clean it and try to prevent long term damage. If you buy a print from a gallery and improperly mount it, causing acid burns on the paper, you can have a conservator try to remove the stains and buffer the paper against further acid damage.

I really think this is a discussion that we need to have with open minds and reasonable attitudes. I realize that thinking of a rare card the same way as someone thinks of a Chagall print is not consistent the the card collector's mentality but this has to change if the vintage material world is to grow. If it is accepted in the world of fine arts to remove foreign materials from a fine art print and to buffer it so that the acids in the paper do not cause it to degenerate, it is just silly for us to decree that cards (which can cost as much as fine art prints) are too holy or special or whatever to undergo the same treatment.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Trust me, like it or not probably each and every poster in this thread has at least 1 and probably several cards in their respective collections that have been soaked off of paper or glue or scrapbooks, and does not know it. whether graded or not. it is absolutely impossible to tell if a card has been soaked and dried. AGAIN i am not speaking of pressrolling a soaked card and stretching it for trimming, only the holders of 7 and higher holders need to worry about that, and generally these cards have some recognizable characteristics, but thats another story.

collectors have been soaking cards off of pages and such for over 50 years, it didn't start last week. these have never been considered tainted in any way. as a note i would suggest contacting your favorite grading service and asking them about a card having been soaked in water and blotted dry in a phone book or typing paper. they probably won't have much to say as they can't detect it. unlike bleaching, coloring ,etc.

SO unless it just worries you to death, i would just keep enjoying your cards and not get to caught up in this thread.

Scott

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Posted By: Josh K.

That is a great point Adam.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I agree.......aesthetically speaking, I'd rather have a nice EXMT soaked card than a heavily creased G/VG one........encapsulated or otherwise.

I think it's interesting that the grading services, especially SGC now are encapsulating cards and putting the 'AUT' on them when they vehemently denied doing this a year or two ago. I think it's a great service ultimately (not to switch to another inflammatory discussion). If they could detect that a card had been soaked, I would not be opposed to them putting 'AUT' or some other identifier on it. I just don't think it rises to the occasion of that type of situation though because, arguably, nothing has been done to the card to make it materially different.

Interesting discussion. I think we'd all be surprised at the true history of all the cards in our collections........

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

Some of the posters here should read what Burdick wrote in the earlier issues of the American Card Catalog.

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Posted By: RayB

Thanks. Well thought out and logical. I am nothing but open minded, I've just felt pretty strongly about this issue.
In most cases however a conservator is working on a one of a kind piece. Museum conservatory work of this type doesnt offend me or press any ethics issue because the museum is often doing this to preserve the image/object for it's historical importance only, to be enjoyed by our grandchildrens grandchildren and beyond.
I don't deal in art but I suspect that trade in this collectible commodity has a "restored" issue as well when it comes to the buy, sell and trade side of that market.
I am open minded about the potential use of conservation methods as a positive. Heck, who wouldn't be for the sandblasting and puttying that goes on at Mount Rushmore to maintain that great American landmark.
It's impossible to go back to a point where everyone leaves the cards as is. We are at where we are at.
Respectfully,
RayB

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Posted By: Josh K.

keith,

please dont leave us hanging.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

"Interesting discussion. I think we'd all be surprised at the true history of all the cards in our collections........"

I think that is the one thing on which we can reach a consensus here, irrespective of differences on the appropriateness of particular practices.

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Posted By: cmoking

Keith O wrote: "Some of the posters here should read what Burdick wrote in the earlier issues of the American Card Catalog."

What did he write?

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I will dig one out tonight and quote from it. Keith

 

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Posted By: Dean H

I always felt what distinguished our hobby from others is the fact that we shunned any type of alterations or enhancements. Now we are comparing cards to cars and paintings. I dont agree with the sentiment of "If they do it to cars, paintings, or whatever, then its ok for us to do it to cards". Also, I consider anything to be an alteration when it changes the "current" state of a card and not just trying to return it to its original factory look. So I personally look at soaking as an alteration.

Dean

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Posted By: PC

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Who makes the rules in card collecting? Are the grading companies setting the rules of what is acceptable and what is not? If PSA figures out how to detect soaked cards and says they won't encapsulate them even if it's only detectable with a mass spectrometer does that make that card less desirable than a PSA 1? I know that people can collect however and whatever they want, but I find it absurd that people find it wrong to remove scrapbook residue and glue from a card if it's indetectable. To each their own though, but those folks paying $6,000 for a PSA 8 T206 common are fooling themselves to believe every PSA 8 or 9 has never been soaked.

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Posted By: pete ullman

my neighbor growing up in nj, harold rosenthal-sports writer for the herald tribune gave me this card when i was a kid. it's always been very special to me despite the 4 ugly pieces of tape that USED to cover the 4 corners. a patient of mine removed the tape for me by soaking them.

i'm much happier with the appearance of the card. i agree with the artistic preservation model. as seen on antiques roadshow over and over it's perfectly acceptable and usually recommended that damaged paintings be restored. as far as i'm concerned...most vintage cards are little paintings.

like hal says it's like taking a shower.

but trimming, stretching, bleaching not cool and pressing/ironing out wrinkles is a tad suspect!!

just my 2c

pete in mn

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I didn't wanna leave everybody hanging and I'll keep looking because I haven't found what I'm looking for yet, but all my ACCs make reference to soaking cards off album pages (46, 53, 56 and 60).

1946, page 104 - "From the start, people began collecting advertising cards and soon such collecting became almost a universal hobby. While some kept their cards loose, in boxes, the usual custom was to paste them in the large old scrap books of the day. Today, these old scrap books furnish possibly three quarters of the supply of the cards. The first problem is to get them out of the albums so they may be sorted and classified. The albums themselves are worthless. Some cards can be easily removed from album pages, others defy all efforts and usually emerge somewhat damaged in the process. Such conditions must be considered in placing a value on stuck down cards. Warm water soaking will remove most cards without damage.

Dealers in antiques, old books, and similar collector's items are most likely to find these cards. Most of them prefer to pass them on to collectors "as is" - by the boxful or album. Only a few care to clean, sort, and price singly. Some dealers with a large counter and mail trade can do that with profit."

1953, page 83 - (talking about albums) "Everything depends on the percentage of "good" cards. As a rule, 90% of the value is in 10% of the cards. An experienced person can "price" an old scrap album in a few minutes, but it may be necessary to handle many thousands of cards to acquire the necessary experience. Some discount is usually figured for the damage that almost always results in soaking cards off album pages. The albums themselves are worthless."

1956 says about the same thing as 1953.

1960, page 14 - "Some deduction must be made for stuck down cards as all cannot be removed without damage, especially where unsoluble glues have been used."

What I was looking for was something I think Scott B made reference to...toulene. I remember reading it and it stuck in my mind. Maybe someone can help me out here...is it another older publication I'm thinking of and not the ACC? It mentioned the cleaning virtues of the chemical and how readily available it is at any local hardware store. I'll keep looking.

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Posted By: pete ullman

toluene?

What is toluene?

Toluene is a clear, colorless liquid with a distinctive smell. Toluene occurs naturally in crude oil and in the tolu tree. It is also produced in the process of making gasoline and other fuels from crude oil and making coke from coal.

Toluene is used in making paints, paint thinners, fingernail polish, lacquers, adhesives, and rubber and in some printing and leather tanning processes.

pete in mn

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Posted By: joe brennan

150+ posts about water. This is by far the most anal post I have read here, and granted I skipped half of the redundancy. It's water and its cardboard. It not rocket science.

1) They've been soaked and will continue to be soaked
2) Everyone here owns a soaked card
3) I don't care if mine are soaked
4) I will buy a soaked card
5) It is not altered

A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: Dennis W.

Because of the response to this thread I thought it might make for a new poll question. "Is soaking cards ethical or unethical?". I know I'd be curious to see what the consensus is.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Water/pressing removed the remnants of scrap book from the Herzog, and almost an entire back-sized piece of paper from the Pfeister. I do not have scans of the backs available, but I assure you, they are quite clean. And they are two of my most favoritist, nicest cards in my collection:

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Jim, did you get a satisfactory answer to your question?

-Al

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Does slabbing alter cards???

I hate slabbed cards as much as the notion of water on a T206 ruffles some of you.


Here's the deal... you guys that disdain soaking, you stay clear of it. I appreciate your stand.

One of my Home Run Kisses cards I bought quite reasonably at auction, becuase it looked very rough, with paper stuck to it on both sides. A few minutes in water and it floated right off. What was an ugly card is quite presentable. I didn't tinker with the card, I did remove NON-CARD matter from the card. The card is just as it was.

I won't be soaking many more T206s, I have less than a dozen to go... but if I get one of the few of the ones I'm missing, I'll gladly buy them with their backs obscured by scrap book paper, glad that I bought the card for less than it could have been, because potential Ludite bidders steered clear of a card with srap book on it.

Realistically, rinsing and loosening a few bits of tobacco from a Polar Bear card actually protects the card, and stops the tobacco from further staining the card.

I'm against bleach, Oxyclean, cutting and timming.... but water?

let's not antagonize please.....(moderator dude)

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Maybe one day I can grow up just like you***********

moderator dude says "party foul"

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Posted By: Henry Eshelman

HEYO its gettin heated now.

Thanks, Henry Eshelman

Website:www.freewebs.com/vintagebaseball

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Posted By: Jim Novotny

Al
I dont know whether to respond or run for the hills and hide for starting a thread that got so heated. Usually when I post I kill most threads.

I do appreciate the honesty of all of you and I do appreciate hearing your points of view. Being relatively new to collecting vintage cards it didnt even dawn on me that people would soak and press cards to make them longer then trim them down so they would get 8s and 9s. Since I can only afford low grade (1-3) T206s, and I dont sell my cards, and I only collect and hold them for my personal collection, I doubt that I would experience the soak/press/trim effects.

However, I admit that I have taken paper off of the back of one of my T206s. At first PSA wouldnt grade the card with the paper on it and called it altered. Upon closer inspection it looked like the back was intact and when I removed the paper it had a very nice Sweet Cap back. It went back to PSA and it got a 2 which fits perfectly into my collection.

So after all of this discussion I must admit that I am a bit wiser (but Ill still lay low until the smoke clears).

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Posted By: Tim James

Wow,this thread has mushroomed.The bottom line is,what grade or who will give a grade when it comes to these issues.I don't think the soaking aspect would affect anything,if a card gets a high mark the bidding community will go for it.When you talk about vintage cards there is no way you can discern what has or hasn't been done to a specimen,if it gets a grade it is a good bet.I would say soaking would not have a negetive affect on the grading of a card.If it gets slabbed,who's the wiser? There is no way anyone would know.We could dream of "virgin" cards,but who could substantiate the claim?

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Posted By: PC

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hello Josh, where are you??? You left an email back at the beginning of this thread. I've tried to email you, but the address isn't working. If you still want to know stuff, email me and I'll respond...

Gotta go now... I'm putting an envelope into my collection. I think there's a Sports Thrills inside that I'm missing... Until a few days ago I would have opened the envelope to check; but now you guys have me not wanting to alter the "dark" state of the card, I'd hate to expose it to light and alter it...

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Posted By: David Vargha

Toluene is used in the manufacturing of methamphetamines. When confronted by potential card buyers who say that my cards have had tape removed by Toluene soaking, I simply reassure them that it is not the case and that I actually run a meth lab.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: steve f

This pre-war could certainly benefit from a good soaking! card photo removed.

Didn't want to offend anyone (Josh or Scott). Just a reminder to a few, of life's issues that are really important.

Again, I apologize if it struck a nerve...

Steve F
USN DAV
Severe Patriot

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Posted By: Josh K.

Im sorry, but what is the point of posting a picture of that "card".

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Josh, there appears to be no limit to human stupidity. Unbelievable.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

I am personally offended and sick that anyone would collect a card of Hitler. That might be the single most repulsive collectible I have ever seen and to the owner, what can you say? That guy killed many of my relatives and he gets a trading card? Wow!! I can't figure out who is worse Hitler or the guy that is collecting his cards.

Charlie

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Posted By: Rich Klein

My beloved wife's dad survived the Concentration Camps and many of his relatives were killed in the camps so I have 1st hand experience with that opinion. And yes part of me would want nothing to do with a collector such as that.

But, on the other hand, it IS a card and since collecting is an individual pursuit, there is on that level nothting inherently wrong with collecting a card like that.

In fact, if we dont keep his memory fresh in our mind, more people every day may forget those atrocities committed during the 3rd Reich. Look at some of the recent developements in the Middle East where they are trying to say the Holocaust never happenned. Our goal needs to be to never forget and cards is a good way to start.

Best regards
Rich Klein

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Posted By: scott ingold

Wow,

I don't think we need to go there. Up to this point this thread has been great reading and very informative.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Rich,

I will respectfully disagree and say that the memories lie with the loved ones who died not those who perpetrated the crimes. We should create trading cards of those who died or those who survived Hitlers destruction.

Charlie

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Posted By: T206Collector

...with villains. Hitler is the arch-villain of them all. My concern is less with the existence of the card than with the mentality/motivation/sensitivity/maturity of its owner. And not necessarily this owner in particular, just any owner that would deem this a part of his collection.

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Posted By: identify7

Three points Id like to make on this (hopefully brief) tangent.

Firstly, Hitler was the cause of suffering by persons of a variety of religious beliefs, as well as persons who were singled out and harmed for non-religious reasons. What is termed the holocoust is but a portion of the pain associated with that man.

Secondly, the poster of the card did not state that praise should be offered to that figure, he stated that a good soaking would be reasonable treatment.

Thirdly, recent overreaction to statements made in jest, but perhaps poorly thought out, almost cost us the participation of an important contributor to this board.

Please remember it is only cards, and I am only Gil