EPDG Thread......summarizing this T206 survey

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PART I

Provided here are the hi-lites from the resulting data acquired from the very popular EPDG
Thread (362 posts) by Barry Arnold. Forum members' inputs exceeded 700 cards in the multiple
surveys in this Thread which reflected several 1000's of cards in members' collections.

1st..order of confirmation was that the El Principe de Gales T206 back is indeed a tough back to
acquire. Inputs from small and large T206 collections yielded only 1 in 100 cards (1%) that had
the EPDG back.

2nd..A subset of this survey developed....in that an EPDG back is not supposed to exist with any
T206 cards that are not in the 350 Series. And to this end, multiple surveys resulted in which
possible T206 candidates in the "150-only" category were gradually eliminated as more inputs
were provided.

3rd....Also, in this process, the "Piedmont Primacy" theory was developed which identified certain
150/350 cards with exclusive Piedmont 350 backs (which have proven to be very scarce). This will
be discussed in a subsequent post in this Thread.

Shown here are the three remaining cards from this survey (and also other surveys) that still have
not yielded any confirmed "350" backs. These 3 are Ames (hands/chest), Ewing, and Schulte (front
view). Depicted with them are all their confirmed backs.

We are still searching........does anyone have any 350 backs on these three cards ?

[Archive]

Posted By: judd hamlin

New to the forum- missed on the EPdG thread, but let me throw my 2(06) cents in. I've informally tracked front/back combos for quite a while and can add that I've seen the Ames with a Piedmont 350, but no other 350's. I've also seen it with EPdG, Hindu and Old Mill. O-fer the Ewing and Schulte.

Of my 500+ T206's, I have 25 EPdG's, most of which I grabbed in the 90's (mostly Sloate, Lipset, Doubleheaders/Wheat, Howard's and EPSCC) and have noticed that there are many fewer on the market in the last couple of years, and that they are becoming more dear as less are coming out of collectors' hands than are going in. In terms of series breakdown, my 25 are as follow: 150 only- 0; 150/350- 11; 350 only- 8; 350/460- 5; and 460 only- 1.

I sent my list in to Bill Brown (if I did it right), but thought I'd add by back breakdown to help anyone else's research

American Beauty 350 w/frame: 23
American Beauty 350 no frame: 4
American Beauty 460: 3
Broadleaf 350: 5
Broadleaf 460: 1
To which a note- several years ago, at Ft. Washington (right after they moved) a dealer had a small stack (8-10) of Broadleaf 460's- I purchased a Snodgrass and an O'Leary. All the cards were VG or worse. Never saw that dealer or those Broadleafs again. I hope some of you grabbed those, or maybe even purchased the O'Leary from Barry Sloate.

Carolina Bright: 7
Cycle 350: 32
Cycle 460: 6
Drum 350: 2 (Jackson, Sweeney-Bos.)
EPdg: 25
Hindu (brown): 30 (13 of which are SL's)
Lenox: 2 (Abbaticchio, M. Brown)
Old Mill: 23
Old Mill SL: 32
Piedmont 150: 33
Piedmont 350: 40
Piedmont 350-460(25): 9
Piedmont 350-460(42): 2
Polar Bear: 41
Sovereign 150: 24
Sovereign 350: 43
Sovereign 460: 7
Sweet Cap 150(25): 9
Sweet Cap 150(30): 13
Sweet Cap 150(649): 9
Sweet Cap 350(25): 10
Sweet Cap 350(30): 28
Sweet Cap 460(25): 1
Sweet Cap 460(30): 8
Sweet Cap 460(42): 2
Sweet Cap 460(OP): 5
Tolstoi: 19
Uzit: 1 (Steinfeldt)

Hope this helps someone and I'll be happy to try and answer questions this might engender.
I would also like to see stats on Southern Leaguer breakdown by back- I've alsways thought it was 45% Piedmont, 50% Old Mill and about 5% Hindu, but the Hindu #s may be a little high from what I've seen over the last few years.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JUDD

Very interesting to hear of your Ames with a P350 back. Also, do I understand that
you have (or have seen) Ewing and Schulte with P350 backs ? And, can you positively
confirm these cards ?

In the EPDG thread (and other surveys) no such backs for these cards have surfaced.
And, we are talking about a total sample of 5000 - 8000 T206's.

Incidently, you can find the EPDG Thread (by Barry Arnold) on Page 6 of this Forum's
listing (approx. in the middle of that page). You will find it very informative; if you
are patient enough to read most of the 362 posts that are in it.

TED Z.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Ted,
I think Judd's "O-fer" reference means that he has NOT seen Ewing or Schulte (Front View) in 350. I am not too surprised that he has seen Ames (Hands at Chest) in 350; I guess that leaves Ewing and Schulte (Front View) as the sole survivors among the 150-only candidates. The interesting thing about Ewing (which I'm sure has not escaped your attention) is that he IS available with EPDG; thus, if he is a 150-only subject it suggests that the known 150-only subjects (other than Wagner and Magie, of course) may be possible with EPDG. We should think about offering a bounty for Ewing and Schulte (Front View) in 350. I'd be willing to chip in. By the way, I like the graphic in your post.
Scot

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I too am curious as to why the Ewing has a EPDG, but apparently no 350's. Does this card fall under the same category as the Nichols AB back?

Lee

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Posted By: barry arnold

Top drawer elucidative summary, TRex.
As we continue to digest the groundbreaking efforts of Scot Reader's work,while observing the formation of the T206 super set,
and the gradual unfolding of the PRIMACY OF PIEDMONT THEORY, we anticipate
discoveries are just around the corner.
Then a T206 scholarly monograph will be in order.
Right?! Ted et al.

All the best,

Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: judd hamlin

That would, in fact, be no sightings of either with 350 backs. I do not have the Ames with the 350, but probably didn't think too much of it at the time I saw it, pre-VCBC, this site, etc.

I'll also throw out the Hindu SL bit again- what is the consensus on population (not just graded) for these cards, and are some more "common" (read as less impossible) than others?

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

There was a dealer (Old timer, I forget who but with a really awful toupe and lousy prices that he did not bargain down; anyone else know?) with a book of hundreds of T206s, and he had several pages of EPDG.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JUDD

Regarding the T206 So. Lgers with HINDU backs. Brian Weisner is the expert
on the availability of these particulat HINDU backs. Brian has noted that 37
of the 42 possible So Lgers exist with HINDU backs.

Regarding this series with respect to Piedmont 350 and Old Mill (So.) backs,
all 48 cards in this series have either of these backs.

I am sure Brian will respond and elaborate on this subject better than I can.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- by your description it sounds like Irv Lerner.

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Dear Ted,

I notice that your depiction above is missing a Sovereign 150 back for Ewing. I have one. If you're interested, I could dig it out and forward a scan.

Let me know.

Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAN M.

No need for a scan on Ewing......until now I had not seen a Sov 150 back for him.
Although, I expected one to eventually show up.
Thanks much for this input, I will have to modify my graphic to include your input.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PART II

Quite quickly, as the numerous inputs to the EPDG Thread were received, an interesting
pattern became evident. Certain cards that were primarily 150-Series cards on rare oc-
casions would show up with a Piedmont 350 back. But, never with a Sweet Caporal 350
or Sovereign 350 back. Multiple surveys, reflecting 1000's of different backs, confirmed
this Piedmont exclusivity.

This factor actually reinforced an earlier theory that the T206 designers first produced
the Piedmont cards in each Series. This fact appears evident by considering the MAGIE
and Joe DOYLE errors. They exist only with Piedmont backs (as is simulated in the 1st
picture here). We can only assume that both these errors were caught very early (the
Doyle quicker than the Magie); and therefore, production of them did not get beyond
the initial Piedmont press run.



There is a 3rd card in the T206 set that appears to have been printed with only Piedmont
backs and that is the Carl Lundgren (Cubs) card. However, the P350 version is quite rare.
Also, this card can be found with an EPDG back. However, this is an extremely rare card.
There are 6 more "150 Series" cards in the set that are short-printed exclusively with P350
backs (no Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350) and these cards will be depicted in the
forthcoming PART III post.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

I couldn't remember the name but I remembered that rug and the overpriced cards.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Which cards are supected of being in the Pied 350 only category?

Lee

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PART III

Besides Carl Lundgren (Cubs), there are six additional 150/350 cards in the T206
set that appear only with Piedmont 350 backs. And, I find this very interesting,
since these 6 cards are available in the 150 Series with Piedmont, Sweet Caporal,
and Sovereign backs. Anyhow, there is a logical explanation for these particular
cards not fully continuing in the 350 Series; and, Scot Reader (in his book) details
these players' trades, or transfers to Minor Lge. status during 1909-10.

Furthermore, if one is trying to complete a "Super Set", or just collect all the front/back
permutations with just Piedmont cards; they will have a tough time finding these six
P350 cards. They are definitely "short-printed" and surveys have indicated that their
availability is a mere 2% of the 150/350 population of any one of these 6 cards.

Shown here are these six....Bill Dahlen (Boston)....Bob Ganley....Tom Jones (St. Louis)
Ed Karger....Vive Lindaman....George Mullin (throwing).

Occasionally, these six cards are found with either a HINDU or EPDG back. Also, an
OLD MILL back is possible, but very, very rarely.
But, so far no Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 backs have been found.

So, once again guys....check-out these 6 cards in your T206 collections and let's see
what backs you have ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

I think might be time to check on Sweet Cap 350 onlys from Bill's Data to date. There appear to be cards that are Sweet Cap 350 only.

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEE B.

I have never looked into the possibility of SC "350-only" cards. But, I will remind
you that I am near completion of my 520 card "Piedmont-only" set (minus Wagner
and Plank) and I have not come across any missing Piedmont card in this entire
run of T206's. But, an educated guess is that if you tried to complete a T206 set
of only Sweet Caporal backs you would need approx. 510 cards (minus Wagner &
Plank) .

But you seem to be skeptical about what I am saying; so, if you combine all the data
in Scot Reader's extensive survey and the data in Bill's Spread Sheet and the data we
have tabulated in Barry Arnold's EPDG Thread, you will see that for every Sweet Caporal
input there is a corresponding Piedmont input for a given card. But, the reverse is not
true for about a dozen cards that are P150 or P350 (but no SC or Sov counterparts).

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
A Sweet Cap set would be a lot less than 510. No Southern Leaguers, that's 48 less in one shot..... Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

It's been a long day.....what can I say.....except you are so right.
When I was typing that 510 number, something in the back of my
mind was telling me....it's incorrect.

So.....510 - 48 = 462 cards

I have started this "T206 craze" with an "Piedmont-only" set, and at this
point, I am just 29 cards shy of completing it

It's obvious then, that an "Sweet Caporal-only" set is easier to complete.

So....I dare someone to try it.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guys....I guess you are getting tired of T206 Surveys ?

I don't blame you.....but how about just one more ?

Please check-out these six T206 (150/350) cards in your sets and give me your inputs
regarding their backs.

Bill Dahlen (Boston)

Bob Ganley

Tom Jones (St Louis)

Ed Karger

Vive Lindaman

George Mullin (throwing-HORIZ.)


Thanks for your time and effort, it is appreciated.....T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Mullin horiz - SC150 Fact 30 2nd Dist NY

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Posted By: steve yawitz

Bill Dahlen (Boston) - SC 150/30
Tom Jones (St Louis) - SC 150/649
Vive Lindaman - PD 150 x 2

http://imageevent.com/yawie99

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Posted By: barry arnold

TRex.
there's no way I'll ever get tired of this one!!!!

ganley sweet cap 150 fac.25

lindaman epdg

karger pied 150


all the best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Drew

Ted

As Barry said I'll never get tired of these T206 survey's

Dahlen P150 SC150
Ganley P150 SC150
Jones P150 Hindu
Karger P350 SC150
Lindaman P150 SC150
Mullin P350 EPDG


Drew

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Posted By: Ron

Ted, This is what I have,
Dahlen P150 fac 25
Ganley P150 fac 25
Jones P150 fac 25
Karger sc150 fac 25
Lindaman p150 fac 25 hindu
Mullin sc 150

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Dahlen (Boston) -- Hindu
Ganley -- Piedmont 150
Jones -- SC 150
Karger -- SC 150
Lindaman -- Piedmont 150
Mullin -- Piedmont 150

Mike

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK, here are my T206's for this survey......

Dahlen (Boston)....P150, P150, P150, HINDU

Ganley................P150, P150

Jones (St Louis)....P150, P150

Karger.................P150, P150

Lindaman.............P150, P150, P150, P150, EPDG

Mullin (horiz).........P150, Sov150

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Posted By: judd hamlin

Based upon my recording of front/back combos here's what I've seen for the 6:

Dahlen P150, Sov150, SC150(30), EPdG
Ganley P150, SC150(30), EPdG, Hin
Jones (STL) P150, Sov150, SC150(25) + (649), EPdG, Hin
Karger P150, Sov150, SC150(30)
Lindaman P150, SC150(30), Hin
Mullin (Hor) P150, Sov150, SC150(25) + (30), EPdG

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

Here is what I have for the six card T206 survey...

Bill Dahlen (Boston) - P150
Bob Ganley - sc150 30, p150, p150
Tom Jones (St Louis) - p150, sc150 30, sc150 30
Ed Karger - p150, p150, sc150 30
Vive Lindaman - sov150, p150
George Mullin (throwing-HORIZ.) - p150, p350, epdg (2), sov150 (2), sc150 25, sc150 30 (3)

Art M.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanx for your inputs guys and gals......

The total count of inputs so far is 89 for these 6 cards.

WOW.....only 3 reported Piedmont 350 backs (Karger and 2 - Mullin's).

So far this is slightly higher than the 2% figure I noted above.

But, we need more inputs on these 6 cards.....come on all you T206 guys,
post your inputs ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: tdc

Have the following:

Bill Dahlen (Boston) - P350
Bob Ganley - sc150 30


thanks,

tdc

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Posted By: Bill

Ted,

Here are the cards that I have:

Dahlen Boston Piedmont 150
Ganley Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 30
Jones Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 30, Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649
Karger Piedmont 150
Lindaman Piedmont 150
Mullin Throwing Piedmont 150

The "Super Set" data has shown Piedmont 350 for all of the cards, except the Lindaman, and Lindaman Piedmont 350 just recently sold on ebay. No Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 have been seen.

What about Pasorius? Haven't seen a 350 series card.

Bill

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Bill and Scot Reader

I have no info on Pastorius beyond the 150-Series. Have we overlooked him ?

He had a very short Major Lge. career (1906-1909); and, only a few games in 1909.
Therefore, can we conclude that the T206 designers did not extend him into the 350 Series ?

But, Pastorious has always been classified as a 150/350 card. So, can we anticipate that
he may eventually appear as a P350 (only) card ?

We need to include him in this survey.

Thanks....for any info on this card......T-Rex TED

P.S....Bill I have a few more backs to give you that are not on your current SS.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Hi T 206 scholars!

My Pastorius is 150 Piedmont.

The super set is turning out to be a fabulous data bank, isn't it?!

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry
Ther are 2 cards of Pastorius with Sweet Cap 350's for sale right now. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Bill

Ted,

The "Super Set" is has over 3500 different backs now. I just input a Pastorius 350 Piedmont. I emailed the collector that submitted it to confirm that the data was correct. Here is a list using the data gaithered on the "Super Set":

150/350 Series with no cards in the 350 Series
Ames Hands at Chest
Ewing
Hinchman Cleveland
Schulte Front View

150/350 Series with only Piedmont 350
Beaumont
Chase Pink
Cobb Green Background
Conroy Fielding
Criger
Dahlen Boston
Davis Chicago
Ganley
Jones, Tom
Karger
Lundgren
Mullin Throwing
Pastorius
Shaw St. Louis
Waddell Throwing
White Portrait

Keep the data coming. Bill

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

I just sampled 10 T206 Pastorious cards and their backs are......5 - P150, 4 - SC150
and an OLD MILL. The OLD MILL implies there must be a "350" somewhere.

Where did you find the 2 - SC350's ?

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
T206.com. Busy Brian

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Posted By: J Hull

Ted,
Here's what I have:

Dahlen (Bos): P150

Ganley: P150

Jones (Stl): P150

Karger: P150, P150

Lindaman: P150, P150

Mullin (horiz): P150

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Ted,

Mullin Hor- SOV 150.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: tdc

ted,
I have the following additional cards to add to your survey (along with the Dahlen,Boston P350)

Ewing - P150
Hinchman Cleveland - SC150 and P150

Cobb Green Background - SC150
Criger - P350
Davis Chicago - P150
Ganley - SC150
Pastorius - P150
Shaw St. Louis - P150
White Portrait - SC150 and P350

Hope that helps

TDC

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BILL B.

P350's for Criger and Hinchman are reported here....tdc.

Brian W reported a Tom Jones P350 in the EPDG thread.

Scot R. reported a Dahlen P350 in the EPDG thread.

I have seen Cobb (green) with P350 on ebay, recently.

Lundgren (Cubs) was also reported in the EPDG thread.


Please add these new cards from me to your SS......

Matty (white cap)....SC350/30

Bradley (port)..........P350

H. Davis..................HINDU

Joe Dunn.................EPDG

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Please check-out these six T206 (150/350) cards in your sets and give me your inputs
regarding their backs.

Player............150-type......HINDU......EPDG......P350

Bill Dahlen.............13............2............1... .........1
(Boston)

Bob Ganley............17............1............1.... ........0


Tom Jones.............17............2............1.... ........0
(St Louis)

Ed Karger..............14.............0............0. ...........1


Vive Lindaman........16.............1............2..... .......0


George Mullin..........19............0............4...... ......2
(throw-Horiz)

Total # of inputs = 115

Total # of P350 = 4

Let's have some more back inputs, guys.....we really want to see if these special T206's
exist with Sov 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 backs.....?

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

BRIAN W.

Ole Buddy....we are waiting for your inputs on these 6 cards......?

I am certain you have at least a few new ones to add....and the "only" P350 of
Tom Jones that has been reported.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Yes, I have the 350 Piedmont Jones and probably a few of the others,but haven't had time to look. I'll try tonight. Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I recently owned a Ganley with Piedmont 350. The only reason I bought it was because it had a 350 back and I had never before seen Ganley with a 350 back. It was F-G and I sold it on eBay for $20 earlier this year before I knew anybody else cared about 150/350 subjects who are difficult to find with 350 backs. Now I regret it.

Of course, we all recently saw Lindaman with a Piedmont 350 back at auction.

And we all know Brian W. has Jones (St. Louis) with a Piedmont 350 back.

So, correct me if I am wrong, but aside from Ewing and Schulte (Front View), who have not yet been confirmed with any 350 back, the only subject conventionally thought to be a 150/350 subject who nobody seems to have yet seen with a Piedmont 350 back is Wilhelm (Hands at Chest). I expect he will turn up in Piedmont 350 with sufficient looking.

Scot

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

BRIAN

I have included your Tom Jones (P350) in the updated tabulation.

SCOT

I am including your Ganley (P350); and, the Lindaman (P350) you reported in the
EPDG thread in the updated tabulation.

Also, I am adding Wilhelm (Hands at chest) as an additional card to this survey. I
will start it off with the 4 cards of him that I currently have (all 4 are P150).

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Hi Trex,

my wilhelm (hands at chest) is a P150.

you are amazingly conscientious and consistent in keeping tabs on the
various pieces of this most interesting 'back puzzle.'
many thanks

and to all the T206 scholars

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,

Bill Dahlen Bos Hindu, Piedmont 150

Bob Ganley Hindu Piedmont 150

Tom Jones Hindu Piedmont 150, 350 Sweet Cap 150, 649

Ed Karger Piedmont 150

Vive Lindaman Piedmont 150

George Mullin Piedmont 150

Wilhelm Hindu, Sweet cap 150, 649



Sorry no more 350 rabbits in my hat. Be well Brian