card doctors

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Posted By: pat

this may have been discussed before but i wanted to get some opinions from members here. shouldnt there be some sort of permanent resource of tracking those people whose submission have (say 10%+ ) evid of triming on their submissions. i dont know how to track other people's submissions because i dont know the sub # or the zip code. i think all subs should be able to be seen by all without much trouble --maybe within the psa site - you can enter year, card number, etc and it pops out submissions containing those cards and the grades and the submittors name. in addition, you should be able to search a person's name to see their past submissions. if this can be done, i think it could have a great impact on the hobby and slow dont some of these losers who trim, color etc. for example, it seller xyz had a 1965 mantle psa 8 on ebay, i could go to the psa website and search 1965 topps mantle and see all who submitted them. so if seller xyz submitted say 5 examples and 1-2 times it came back (evid of trimming) then i would be better informed, and would know to stay away from him. i would blacklist him in my mind. now, i am sure it would be a pain in the butt programming something like this but i think it would benefit everyone. i know they cant give out too much personal info, but a name and state should give us enough info. anyone have any thoughts on this idea??
pat

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Posted By: barrysloate

When I go online to check the status of my own submissions, I have to type in my username and password to get into my account. You can't expect the grading services to make everyone's password public information. It would be great to be able to identify card doctors, but there has to be a better way.

If I inadvertently submit a card that turns out to be trimmed, it doesn't mean I trimmed it, and my name shouldn't get into the public domain as a card doctor because of that submission.

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Posted By: pat

barry- thats why i mention 10 percent. i think anyone will happen across 1 trimmed card from time to time of course. i am just trying to get some ideas out there. i thought there could be something along the same lines as cert verification whereas you dont need passwords. you can type in a name and state and get the history.

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Posted By: Bob

In theory this would be wonderful but I don't think it is practical. What scares me the most is when large auction houses sell huge lots of prewar cards and openly, honestly and specifically put on their lot descriptions that the cards are trimmed or altered. I know that these cards wind up being sold as unaltered or in many cases find their way in to slabs. That's the shame. I know about 2-3 years ago there was a gigantic caramel card lot in a major auction house's auction which I have heard has appeared on ebay in drips and drabs over that time and was not described as trimmed or altered. I made a xerox copy of the pictures of the lot from the catalogue but no longer have it. This is the kind of stuff that burns me up......

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Posted By: joe

No way. I submitted 12 T205 cards a couple of years ago and 9 of them came back trimmed. These were bought at card shows in the 1980's and 1990's. I did not trim them, so I don't want my name coming back as a doctoring cards.


Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: barrysloate

The problem is, what do you do with these trimmed cards? Throw them away? It is perfectly alright to sell them as long as you state they are trimmed. I have a group of four Ed Planks on ebay right now and two are trimmed, and it is clearly stated. I think with full disclosure you have the right to sell them. And they should never end up in holders. If they do, it is the grading service's fault. We've been through this discussion ad nauseum but the burden falls on the graders.

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Posted By: Steve f

Unless they're slabbed as trimmed?.. Authentic only. Much of my collection is 'AUT'

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well 10% of nothing would be nothing for me...


But, some rascal who had 10 cards out of 97 that met your criteria, if he's that much of a bad guy he just submits 4 more cards that are ok, maybe 4 1987 Topps cards, and then he's back under 10%...

What about just not buying trimmed cards if you dislike them, and buy cards with a return policy...

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Posted By: Dylan

all of this sounds pretty ridiculous. Being blacklisted for submitting trimmed cards, c'mon. As long as buyers educate themselves, and primarly stick to purchasing from reputable sellers with a return policy I think youll have a pretty good experience. It would be nice if something could be done to deter the doctoring but this is far too radical.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I recently cracked out 11 SGC AUTH graded T206 cards in an experiment and submitted them to PSA. Presuming all to be trimmed, at least according to SGC, I certainly would have a better than 10% "trim" rate. I am not a "card doctor". I did not trim the cards (nor any ever for that matter).

BTW, 6 of the 11 came back from PSA with numerical grades including 2 5's and a 6.

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Posted By: leon

I shouldn't be this way (naive) but that floors me.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- based on your own observation, would you say PSA got them mostly right or mostly wrong?

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Posted By: Steve M.

I thought that SGC had been unduly harsh and was willing to bet that more than 4 would be graded. I won the bet

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think you sidestepped the question

Were you betting that PSA would get them right, or that they would get them wrong?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Gradually, over the past few months, some of the really experienced board members, wise in the ways of old ball cards, have been posting less and less. Some of them lurk a bit, but no longer post.

What has run them off is the new wave of grading, registry, association, and the like.

Eventually, one of them will set up a board like this one used to be, where old cards and old ball is discussed, instead of grading frenzy. When that haven is established, I think they'll have a moderator who deletes and bans folks who post about grading matters.

And then this board will notice a loss of wisdom and experience. No, that's not true. This board will encounter a loss of wisdom and experience, a loss that may well go unnoticed.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Frank- while I consider myself a hobby oldtimer, and have accepted grading as a necessary evil, I would never ban people for talking about it. A good chatboard should allow freedom of speech.

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Posted By: Steve M.

You got me. I was betting PSA would get them wrong.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

People trim cards?

-Al

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Posted By: Anonymous

Steve-I remember a person creating a website that showed cards he submitted (some altered some graded by other companies) to PRO grading. He showcased the before and after. It wouldve been great to take a scan of the individual cards in their sgc holders and then show their journey into their psa holders on a webpage, for all to see. That way we could objectively look at the cards and see what we think as well

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Barry is right on.

I see but two grading-related threads in the last twenty posted here. Certainly not a "wave."

Frank

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Barry,

2 things, this board is for vintage stuff, Leon will curtail participation if someone only posts about Upper Deck or new stuff....


Second, freedom of speech is misunderstood by most folks. The Constitution does not guarantee us freedom of speech. That isn't in there. The Constitution is a power limiting document, not a right giving document. It does not give us freedom of speech. That is how it is taught, and it is wrong. What the Constitution does is limit the powers of the federal government. The language is that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. It limits what Congress can do.

So this isn't really a free speech thing anyway. I'm just attempting to draw attention to the situation that is slowly growing... a wealth of knowledge is slowly slipping away.

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Posted By: Steve M.

ecardcollector:

Here are the six:

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Posted By: barrysloate

Frank- the freedom of speech issue aside, since that is a digression from the main topic of card trimming, I agree 100% that the new wave of collectors lean on the opinions of the grading companies more than they should. And I agree that all collectors should learn as much as they can about cards themselves.

But I also feel that threads concerning slabbed cards are useful in that a lively one can be educational too. And I would never recommend that if we discussed graded cards for too long, Leon should put a lock on the thread and not allow it to go on. There is something to be learned from any intelligent discussion (and please don't suggest that "intelligent discussion" and "graded cards" in the same sentence is incompatible ).

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you Barry!

Your last sentence has me starting Saturday morning with a laugh.

I agree with your last post... And realistically, I figure you check this site more than any other on the net, and that if the site continues to devolve toward all things graded, you'll join some of the wise old guard to which I've alluded.

We're getting a little snow down here in the wild Kentucky hills, makes me think about you guys up north. Take care up there! Around here we eat 'suppers' not 'dinners' for the evening meal. And on rare occasions I've been with folks who knew enough about ball cards so that we could have an intelligent, productive conversation about them. I think it's easier for you guys to assemble such a group up there for a NY Dinner... I envy that. Maybe I can save up some money, find a cheap place to stay over in New Jersey, and I could eat!

To close on topic, I see no way for grading companies to track the submission of trimmed cards and then publish that information with great abuse, libel, or worse.

With kind regards,
Frank.

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Posted By: pat

this problem is directly related to vintage cards.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

No, Sir.

The problem is directly related to some slabbed vintage cards.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

No sir.

This problem is related to ALL cards, all sports, all years.

If a key card is found floating around without a plastic tomb, that is most definitely not as sign of an "all clear." In fact I would venture to suggest that collectors of raw cards are the ones who are most at risk of picking up an altered card. It's not like the grading companies throw the altered cards they reject in the trash - they return them to the submitter. And then the rejected cards are - you guessed it - raw cards. And they are sold that way.

And it's not like an experienced collector is going to catch every alteration. I saw that very fact proven in a room full of experienced collectors just a couple of weeks ago in NYC.

So the real question is not about who's impacted more - graded collectors, raw collectors, ungraded collectors, et. at. The REAL question is: Do you care if some of your cards might be altered?

If the answer to the question is "no," then this is not an issue that affects you.

If the answer to the question is "yes," then it is. Regardless of what you collect. Sorry, but it is what it is, no matter how experienced a collector you might be, and no matter how you choose to store and display your collection.

-Al

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Posted By: dennis

if they are trimmed and slabbed they aren't trimmed, and if they are trimmed and not in a slab they are trimmed. but, if they are then slabbed they are no longer trimmed. some trims are slabbed by one grading company and rejected by another grading company and vise versa.rejected by psa send to sgc or gai,rejected by sgc send to psa.and so it goes it's all part of the grading game.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dennis- that's a good point in that there really is a lack of objectivity here. You would think a grader would be trained to get it right nearly every time but that just isn't the case.

Here's a question for everyone: How long do you think most graders last before they quit and move on? It's a really difficult job to look at corners, edges, and creases eight hours a day, five days a week. How much turnover is there for a large company like PSA? I've heard they have something like 15 graders. How many are long term, and how many are new trainees?

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Posted By: Anthony

E Card-
Here's the link to the "experiment with pro"

http://www.brucemo.com/cards/articles/pro/

if you back the url a bit and get to his main card site there are some methods of removing cards from slabs, and an interesting one where some cards that were loose in the slab were put in a paint shaker and a clothes dryer to see if the card could be damaged.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Barry, the Feb. issue of the PSA SMR has articles on their grading director who started in 1998 and their assistant director who joined PSA in 1993.

AL makes a very good point. Trimming affects all collectors and this type of thread should not be offensive to anyone who is concerned about the integrity of their collection.

Frank

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Posted By: leon

First of all to answer the initial question. I don't feel there should be tracking of what people submit and that info made public. I don't submit cards to be graded, all that much, but still send in about 50-75 cards a year. I might have 5-7 come back as evidence of trimming and a few others rejected for other things. I have personally never tried to do any kind of trimming but wouldn't want to be scrutenized publicly for cards that got rejected, regardless of the specifics.

To the next topic of talking about grading and different aspects of it. With all due respect this board will be as open as possible when following the premise:

"Hello to all visitors! This is a moderated forum for the discussion of primarily Pre-WWII baseball cards and related topics."


I see grading as a related topic and it can be talked about. I also think, as in anything, some folks will leave, come back, leave etc....It's fine. I need a break sometimes too. To make it sound like the sky is falling when the numbers and topics continue to be steady is unfair, imho. I still see folks that have been in the hobby for 35 years posting and also young ones in their teens. It's all great with me With kindest regards.....

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Posted By: barry arnold

Leon, I think that you are quite right to note that it is natural for
things to ebb and flow.
Sometimes the escalation of volatility in threads brings high numbers for
the day(s). Sometimes not.
Sometimes purely fascinating research brings high numbers. Sometimes not.
I could go on.
In my opinion, the variety of topics (under the umbrella of preWWII cards)
offered is a major plus for the board, as long as civility permeates.
Superimposing my love for T206s onto this board and insisting on such a
reductionism, although always tempting, would ultimately yield a very isolated tributary of thought. The freedom, which Barry S. so eloquently
articulate,feels, and ascribes to, still offers the most fertile ground
for discovery and the expansion of insight and creativity. Social contracts governed by moderator(s) should inculcate sufficient civility
along our way. I believe that this is the case with this fine board.

all the best,

Barry

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Posted By: E, Daniel

So the Prof. is saying things are alright the way they are..isn't he??

Barry, its lovely reading your offerings. I can almost dance to the metre in your prose, not to mention the use of so many scrumdidleeupmptious words.

Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think Barry A. decided to don his professor's cap and have some fun with us. But thanks for the kind words; I'm just a hack with a few too many opinions

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Posted By: warshawlaw

"And it's not like an experienced collector is going to catch every alteration. I saw that very fact proven in a room full of experienced collectors just a couple of weeks ago in NYC."

Were the cards shown at that dinner cards that had been altered by SGC or were they cards that SGC's graders believed had been altered by someone else? The difference is huge; one is objective while the other is not. Unless SGC altered the cards for the display, then all we have are the differing opinions of different people.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dave Forman never told us how the cards got the way they were, and come to think of it, I was wondering where they came from too. Among them was an altered N29 Ewing and a D304 Cobb, and I assume he didn't take the liberty of confiscating them from submitters. Good point, Adam.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Daniel and Barry S.

Many, many thanks for your scrumdidleeupmptious words of reinforcement.
This is, indeed, a very fine board!
And a great place to be!

all the best,

Barry

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Posted By: joe brennan

The problem of trimming isn't caused by the grading companies. The problem was caused by collecting becoming big business. It's because of nuts or collectors like us paying crazy amounts for cardboard. No money in the hobby, no money to be made by altering cards. As far as altering, as long as there is a buck to be made the doctors will stay one step ahead of us and the grading companies. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Barry- that word you used was a Ned Flandersism, and I even think you spelled it right

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

as I stated in this last similar discussion...I think that 30%+ slabbed cards WITH numerical grades ARE TRIMMED, but...I buy the card by size and not because some cheesehead gives opinion otherwise.

BVG grading is BY FAR better then PSA

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Posted By: barrysloate

30% is a bold number. If it's really that bad, it's time to look for something else to do.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

I would guess it is closer to 1%-2% myself.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

it's all about the BENJAMINS !

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Lots of people think lots of cards are altered yet few people think they have any...

Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it?

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

30%? That would mean 3,000,000 out of the 10 million graded by PSA are trimmed. That's way too high. 1-2% more likely, which is still a lot.

Frank

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Posted By: Kevin

Why test PRO when we know they will slab just about anything? The real test is an authentication company with trained professionals that claim they are able to catch most altered cards. A website is not needed to show this, it can be done here.

I won't go into the graphic details but this was a test taken to the “extreme.” Done to see just how much a card could be "put through the wringer" and still get past trained eyes.

This was a T206 Rube Marquard card purchased with a huge glob of almost unremovable glue on the back, stained, dirty and dinged. In this condition it was virtually ungradeable and I doubt it would have even been slabbed "authentic" based on the relatively low value and poor condition.

In all, this card went through over 30 steps, again to test the limits. This goes far beyond doctoring.

It was placed in several different chemicals, bleached and rebleached about 4 times - each time using a different solution, toned and retoned a few times, dings removed, plus soaked dried at least a dozen times. The entire process took a couple weeks.

Here is the card in the middle of the process. Note the glue has been removed (not by water) and it is shown in one of the “many” bleached-out stages.



Here is how the card looked once completed. Submitted as you see it and without being deodorized. It resides in a PSA 2 holder. In the future it will be cracked and taken out of circulation.





Now if a card could be doctored in such a way that many would (and may still) consider it unimaginable and still get a grade, how many are passed with just subtle alterations by skilled card doctors? From my experience about 10% - 15% are questionable. As for how many are trimmed…an educated guess is 10%.

A better question would be what are these various companies doing to keep up with advancements in alterations and who trains them? If they are just solely relying on OJT then many more doctored cards may be slipping by then they think.

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Posted By: leon

Was PSA the only company you tried this with? That's unbelievable that they didn't catch anything....(I am not say you are unbelievable...I am commenting on the card getting graded by the trained monkeys...)

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Posted By: Kevin

All the authentication companies have been tested in one way or another. From subtle alterations to aggressive doctoring (like the Rube card) and "everything" in between. Not to worry, it’s all done for research and training.

The only card ever rejected was one that was deemed recolored. Funny thing, it was untouched. It graded on a resubmission.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Daniel