T206 Super Set Update!

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Posted By: Bill

Just received data from Ted Z. The total front/back combinations in 3993.

Sovereign 460 100% complete!


Piedmont 150 - 154/156 99%
Sovereign 150 - 148/153 97%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25 - 124/155 80%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 30 - 144/154 94%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 - 34/35 97%
American Beauty 350 Frame - 172/213 81%
American Beauty 350 No Frame - 34/56 61%
Broadleaf 350 - 69/214 32%
Cycle 350 - 136/214 64%
Drum 350 - 25/214 12%
Piedmont 350 - 451/462 98%
Sovereign 350 - 261/413 63%
Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 25 - 203/413 49%
Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30 - 373/414 90%
American Beauty 460 - 47/109 43%
Broadleaf 460 - 8/109 7%
Cycle 460 - 64/109 59%
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 25 - 103/109 93%
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 - 44/109 40%
Sovereign 460 - 52/52 100%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 - 45/109 41%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 - 52/54 96%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 - 39/109 36%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42OP - 91/109 83%
Carolina Brights - 84/214 39%
El Principle De Gales - 185/470 39%
Hindu (Brown) - 127/190 67%
Hindu (Red) - 26/109 24%
Lenox (Black) - 35/109 32%
Lenox (Brown) - 1/109 1%
Old Mill - 196/461 43%
Old Mill Southern - 48/48 100%
Polar Bear - 243/317 77%
Tolstoi - 152/317 48%
Uzit - 23/109 21%

Looks like we need to dig up some more Old Mill, EPDG, and Tolstoi. The % of these backs recorded are below 50%. Also, lets find those Sovereign 350 for Ted.

Thanks, Bill

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BILL

I should be providing you more inputs after the Philly Show this weekend.....
as I am expecting to make a deal on a large lot of T206's.

TED Z

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Just curious as to why the Piedmonts are not 100% and Ted has completed the set?

Lee

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Posted By: RayB

Interesting that Sweet Cap factory 25's are still below 50% in both Series. Tougher than one might imagine?

Great work Bill. This pct. type presentation is telling. Thanks.
RayB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I can answer you......here is the breakdown with respect to Series

In the P150 Series....154/156 cards....I do not have Plank or Wagner

In the P350 Series....183/184 cards....I am missing the Joe Doyle error

In the P350 Series....134/134 cards....Minor (86) and Southern Leaguers (48)

In the P460 Series......48/048 cards....460-only Series

My "complete" set = 519 cards out of 524 (Demmitt & O'Hara are only Polar Bear)

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave

I think you sent me an email, and it got lost with a computer shut down....if you did, please resend..thanks

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Thanks Ted, Thought it is something like that but couldn't put 2 and 2 together.

It sure looks not all the cards are printed but with all the backs. Here is a theory is there any correlations between the cards not showing and the team they play for? I can't remember where all the factories are but might there be exclusion of teams from a farther distance?

just a thought,

Lee

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Posted By: MVSNYC

forgive me, but what do the numbers and % mean?

Thanks.
MS

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Michael, the first number is how many different subjects have been found with a back and the second number is how many different subjects are theoretically possible with the back. Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

That's not a bad theory you have and may explain why the Demmitt and O'Hara (ST Louis)
variations exist only with Polar Backs. The Polar Bear Tobacco Factory was based in Ohio
(the farthest west factory).

But, Scot Reader and I have found that Trades, Minor Lge. reassignments, and Retirements
had more of an impact on why certain players were stopped short of being on a larger variety
of the 15 Tobacco brands. Both Demmitt and O'Hara dropped down to the Minors (circa 1910),
so I think that fact had more to do with their St Lo. vars. being limited to just one Factory.

Lee....have you been following my Sovereign Thread ?

I have listed approx. 70 - T206's....that for whatever reason....do not appear to exist with
Sovereign backs. In trying to do an all-Sovereign set, I am finding it quite an interesting
challenge. With the Piedmont set it was all straight forward. As you very well know, there
are many more T206's that exist with a limited number of other Tobacco brands.

Please keep coming up with these great questions....I appreciate your inquisitive mind.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: MVSNYC

got it thanks!

Michael

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Posted By: Dave

I received an email this morning from Bill, that I am pretty sure was his T206 attachment sheet where I could fill in what I have with the backs and send back to him? The second I was opening it my computer froze than crashed, and I lost the email. I did email him back, so he may have yet to see it, but if anybody has what it is he may have sent to me, please go ahead and email it to me...so I can attempt to put together what I have tonight for him. Thanks.

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Posted By: Dave

I will try tonight to put everything I have together and get it back to you. Let me know where you want the info...on the checklist sheet or on the other sheets?

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Posted By: Dave

I as well say its great this is getting done.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Just a reminder.
Bill Brown continues to do a masterful job on the T206 Super Set.
I recently updated my data with him (again!) and would encourage others to do.
If you're new to the board or a new lurker, please send Bill Brown your T206 data.
This work is ongoing and is teaching us much. The super set along with
TRex's threads continue to carve out fascinating new tributaries methinks.
DO SEND IN UPDATED DATA.

many thanks,

Barry

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Posted By: Dylan

Ive looked at this thread before but just to get it straight the gentlemen that created this post is attempting to collect every card with every back possibility in the T206 set?

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Posted By: barrysloate

He is trying to catalog every front/back combination. I don't know if Bill is actually collecting them all.

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Posted By: barry arnold

You're right,Barry.
It is a catalogue. Actually having them all in hand as ones own would
be a bit of a gargantuan accomplishment methinks.
Do send your data in to Bill, Dylan.
And you, too, Barry, if you still have a few of those treasures hoarded
somewhere in that Manhattan apt.
all the best for the holiday season,

Barry

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Posted By: barrysloate

Barry- Ted Z. came to my apartment in October and catalogued all the Sovereigns I had, so Bill's list is up-to-date in that respect.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Thanks, Barry.
Glad to hear 2 ole dinosaurs got to hang together 'round the cards!!!

all the best,

barry

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Posted By: barrysloate

Older than the hills. But we still had fun playing with the cards!

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Posted By: Bill

The Super Set has surpassed the 4000 mark, so approximately 2/3 of the backs have been accounted for. I am sure that some of the harder backs will never come close to completion. Here are the current totals:


Piedmont 150 - 154/156 99%
Sovereign 150 - 148/153 97%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25 - 125/155 81%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 30 - 146/154 95%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 - 34/35 97%
American Beauty 350 Frame - 172/213 81%
American Beauty 350 No Frame - 34/56 61%
Broadleaf 350 - 72/214 34%
Cycle 350 - 137/214 64%
Drum 350 - 26/214 12%
Piedmont 350 - 451/462 98%
Sovereign 350 - 262/413 63%
Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 25 - 206/413 50%
Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30 - 374/414 90%
American Beauty 460 - 47/109 43%
Broadleaf 460 - 8/109 7%
Cycle 460 - 70/109 64%
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 25 - 103/109 93%
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 - 45/109 41%
Sovereign 460 - 52/52 100%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 - 45/109 41%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 - 52/54 96%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 - 39/109 36%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42OP - 92/109 84%
Carolina Brights - 85/214 40%
El Principle De Gales - 193/470 41%
Hindu (Brown) - 127/190 67%
Hindu (Red) - 26/109 24%
Lenox (Black) - 35/109 32%
Lenox (Brown) - 1/109 1%
Old Mill - 196/461 43%
Old Mill Southern - 48/48 100%
Polar Bear - 245/317 77%
Tolstoi - 156/317 49%
Uzit - 23/109 21%

We need to work on the Old Mill and EPDG backs. Thanks for your help. BB

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Posted By: jackgoodman

Hi Bill, Glad to see your efforts have been so well responded to.

For the benefit of many of us, could you or one of our other resident experts start to expound on some of the conclusions and/or assumptions you are able to make at this point in the collection process. I know I would appreciate the thoughts of those more experienced. Thanks.

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Posted By: joe brennan

Only 1 Lennox Brown. That seems like an amazing stat with over 4000 cards and collectors that have been amassing these for years.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
I would be happy to send Bill the list of all the "known" cards in existence. The list was compiled by a small group of T206 Nuts and is 100% reliable. It will fill in a lot of holes in the tougher backs, but will not help with some of the more available issues such as EPDG and Old Mill which have not been tracked as much.
Bill, let me know if you want the list, or if you want to continue doing it collector by collector.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I say use Brian's data but put in * in place of the initials and if the card is a collectors hands reporting in put his initials in than.

Lee

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Posted By: Bill

I just received some new data from Brian Weisner that I have added to the Super Set. This is data that Brian has gaithered on some of the tougher backs (Broadleaf, Lenox, Hindu, Tolstoi, Uzit, and Carolina Brights) Here is were the Super Set stands a the present time:

Piedmont 150 - 154/156 99%
Sovereign 150 - 148/153 97%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25 - 125/155 81%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 30 - 146/154 95%
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 - 34/35 97%
American Beauty 350 Frame - 172/213 81%
American Beauty 350 No Frame - 34/56 61%
Broadleaf 350 - 138/214 64%
Cycle 350 - 137/214 64%
Drum 350 - 68/214 32%
Piedmont 350 - 451/462 98%
Sovereign 350 - 262/413 63%
Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 25 - 206/413 50%
Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30 - 374/414 90%
American Beauty 460 - 47/109 43%
Broadleaf 460 - 29/109 27%
Cycle 460 - 70/109 64%
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 25 - 103/109 93%
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 - 45/109 41%
Sovereign 460 - 52/52 100%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 - 45/109 41%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 - 52/54 96%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 - 39/109 36%
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42OP - 92/109 84%
Carolina Brights - 114/214 53%
El Principle De Gales - 193/470 41%
Hindu (Brown) - 137/190 72%
Hindu (Red) - 42/109 39%
Lenox (Black) - 66/109 61%
Lenox (Brown) - 1/109 1%
Old Mill - 196/461 43%
Old Mill Southern - 48/48 100%
Polar Bear - 245/317 77%
Tolstoi - 219/317 69%
Uzit - 50/109 46%

Total number of different front/back combinations stand at 4335.

Merry Christmas to everybody and their families. Thanks again for all your help. BB

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Posted By: barry arnold

Bill,

many,many thanks to you for continuing to work so diligently and
expertly on the Super Set. this is,indeed, a seminal contribution
to the hobby!
and thanks, Brian, for your very crucial update.

merry christmas and happy new year---and THANKS

Barry

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Posted By: barrysloate

68 Drums, 29 Broadleaf 460's, but still only a single Lenox brown. Does that surprise anyone?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
No, it doesn't surprise me, because nobody tracked Brown Lenox versus Black Lenox. I have a list of 7-9 Brown Lenox, but have not sent them to Bill. When the spreadsheet started I didn't track Brown Lenox or Old Mill, but do have them on different sheets. I will update Bill after I'm through cleaning up after the Christmas feast. Be well to all Brian

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Posted By: barrysloate

Brian- sounds like you have useful information since Bill has only tracked 1 out of 109 brown Lenox. Has anybody tracked the Old Mill Southern League overprints? I have never even seen one other than the scans that have been posted on this board.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

merry x-mas!

this might actually cause a ruckus, but what the heck...

i DO NOT believe the brown lenox is a legit variation...this subject has always bothered me...i think it is simply a lightly printed/faded black one.

and as for the old mill double overprints...these are merely printing freaks (obviosuly), and should be treated as such...there have only been a few discovered...just a bad day at the printing factories...IMO.

ok guys, let's hear your opinions...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Michael- both excellent observations. I recently had a chance to look at a T207 that had what is considered brown printing on the reverse- it was even in an SGC holder and labelled such. It was almost impossible to distinguish the brown ink, as it did just look like faded print. And while I agree the Old Mill overprint probably is just printer's scrap, put one in an auction and see how the bidders react. It will not sell for a printer's scrap price; it will sell at a level commensurate to the rarity it is.

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Posted By: Jerry

I realize that many collectors believe that the Old Mill Overprints are just printers scrap, but I do not believe that is the case.

There appears to have been 3 distinct sheets printed:
1) Black Old Mill back with a black overprint
2) Brown Old Mill back with a single red overprint
3) Brown Old Mill back with two red overprints

Each of these scenarios is outside the norm for an accidental printing. To me an accidental printing would have been a black Old Mill back with a red overprint. This could have been easily explained by the printer accidentally placing the standard red factory 649 overprint bar on a standard SL Old Mill back. To the contrary, the printer specifically used brown ink to print the Old Mill back in one case and in the other case the printer went through the effort of making sure they matched overprint color (black) to the rest of the Old Mill back (also black).

The black overprint bar (factory 649) does not exist anywhere else in the entire T206 set. When someone goes through the effort of ensuring color compatibility between the overprint bar and the back itself this is not an accident.

PS - I do not believe either the brown Lenox or the brown SL Old Mill backs are faded examples of the black versions. I have owned both of these variations I can tell you for a fact the back is distinctly brown and not a faded black. I'm sure other board members can back me up on this observation.

Jerry

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Michael,
Jerry is right, I have owned both and the ink is brown not a faded black.
However, I don't believe that any were intended for distribution, but were mistakes in the printning process.

1. Old Mill Brown: All of the known copies of these have been "hand cut",while some people have reported seeing factory cut examples, I have never seen one and don't think they exist. I believe someone simply used the wrong ink and a few of these printers scraps made there way out of the factory.
2. The Old Mill Overprint's also appear to have been factory mistakes, or printer's scrap, and with less than 5-6 known were never intended for distribution.
3. Brown Lenox: All are factory cut, and some appear on the same poses as black Lenox cards, which makes Michael's point of light black ink seem logical, but under a microscope, the ink is Brown. Personally, I think someone made a mistake and used the brown ink for the players names on the back and the front. Or they may have run out of black ink, and figured that know one could tell the difference if they used brown.

Be well Brian


PS I didn't believe either one was real until I purchased a Revelle Old Mill Brown Old Mill in a Lipset auction. After verifying under the scope that it was really brown ink, I traded the card to Jerry, who already had copies of the over prints.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Brian,

Just wanted to point out that the 2 black Old Mill overprints with the black bar confirmed to date are both factory cut. In fact, they are both graded PSA 4.

I have also been told by the owner of the brown SL Old Mill overprint(1 red bar) that the card measures out to standard size.

I still do not agree that these are necessarily printer's scrap. I believe that ATC may have had intentions of producing SL players with a brown Old Mill back and/or distribute them out of factory 649, but changed their minds along the way. Printer's scrap assumes that there was no rhyme or reason for producing such a card. If you look at the facts I stated in my prior post I believe you can at least see some of the rational for my thinking.

PS - I had sent an email to Scot Reader on this subject with my thoughts. I will forward to you. Please take a look at it if interested.

Jerry

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think Brian's answer makes most sense regarding the brown Lenox- it was simply a case of the printer either running out of black ink while awaiting a new shipment, or simply using up some brown ink that was sitting idly in the factory. Remember, every step of the printing and marketing process had an economic explanation behind it; nothing was done for the fun of it. The distribution of T206's was created solely to increase the sales of the company's tobacco product.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jerry,
I believe if you raed my post carefully you will see that we don't disagree that much:

1. I never said the Overprints were "hand cut" only the Brown Old Mill's.

2. I said the Overprints were either "printing mistakes or scrap".

It is entirely possible that your theory is correct, and that the ATC intended to package Old Mill's in Factory 649, but I seriously doubt it.
The large number of "printers scrap" that exist in the hobby with multiple brands on a particular card that are also factory cut seem to indicate mistake versus intent.

In another life, I worked closely with Pinnacle brands out of Dallas, and can tell you that we produced quite a few finished samples which were never intended to hit the market place.

Be well Brian

PS I don't think we will ever figure out the mystery, but personally I don't think it's takes anything away from the cards rarity or value, but increases it.

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Posted By: Louis Despres

With all the above mentioned talk about "hand cut" or not "hand cut" T206's, would someone enlighten me as to how to positively determine if a card is "hand cut", versus one that is not?

Thanks, Louis

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Posted By: barrysloate

A handcut card is likely to have irregular borders and not conform to the normal rectangular shape of a standard card. The borders could be angular and perhaps even a bit rough.

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Posted By: Joann

Are T206's that are hand cut distinguished within the hobby (not by the graders, but by the collectors) from regular trimmed cards? Is it different because some cards like this are known to be hand cut originally rather than trimmed later?

J

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Posted By: barrysloate

You don't see regularly issued cards handcut very often. It is more common with printing freaks, cards missing colors, blank backs, etc, since it is likely those cards were thrown out before distribution and perhaps retrieved by a worker who may have taken them home and cut them himself.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

All great information guys...my post was just my opinion, seems like you guys have substantial facts to back up your claims...

well done...


MS

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Bill,

Based on recent discoveries (see the Broadleaf thread started by Ted Z. for details), the superset checklist should probably be modified to add/remove the following to/from the theoretically possible front/back combinations:

Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap):

Add American Beauty 350 No Frame
Remove American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights, Cycle 350

Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston):

Remove Sovereign 460, Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30

Feel free to email me for more information.

Scot

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Posted By: barry arnold

Hi T206 scholars,

I've just updated with Bill Brown.
Please take a moment to let him know of any new acquisitions.
Those who are new collectors are most welcome to provide any data, no
matter how few T206s you may have.
Bill's great work is ongoing and needs everyone's input.

all the best,

Barry